Plastic v. Brass

[Anonymous]

The only way I could justify the prcie of brass is for something that  will never be made in plastic or that is beyond my abilities to kitbash. Like the aforementioned carbon black cars or MT-4/MT-6 slugs that CR used.

[Ole Timer]

In response to the "guy who broke or .. I did'nt do it .. dropped my engine " who does'nt admit it .... he would be limping out my front door with my size 11 1/2 boot still embedded ! Everyone needs 1 brass engine ... I look at mine and am still amazed at the realistic detail . I still see no mention of metal diecast instead of plastic ! The plastic still has molded in piping and detail and I just can't see spending hundreds of dollars on plastic ! For one engine ! And when will these manufacturers stop putting chrome looking drivetrain components on engines ? Looks cheaper than heck ! If you're gonna buy plastic and spend bucu bucks on detail items ... don't do it ... get metal . If you just want something to run under your xmas tree get a $20.00 engine . Rivarossi is way overpriced ! Get on the internet brass is available low priced if you can wait for the good deals .

[rkcartwright]

I got into trains/model railroading back in the early 70's after a couple of trips to Cajon and Tehachapi.
With a wife & 4 kids there wasnt much left for a new hobby,but then a friend sold me a N/scale Bachman a/b passenger set. It only had one speed,"balls to the wall" but it didnt matter, I was in hog heaven.  I joined a club, read the mags, and learned what to buy and what to stay away from. Most of the brands were above my budget and I had to stay with "used" and then Kato arrived, setting a standard that soon everybody was following, in all scales. Model Railroading progressed in leaps & bounds. Look where we are now. Can motors in just about every thing offered,DCC,sound systems, etc.  After the kids grew up and all the alimony was paid off, It got easier. But  2 things  happened in my personal life. My eyes and fingers went south, (goodby Nscale)  and I took a trip to Colorado  and discovered Narrow Guage.  What is it the kids are allways saying? Oh yeah, "Oh-My-God!". So now I've found a new meaning to life as I know it. "K" units and HOn3. I can see it and I can work in it. However,comma, Very little in plastic as far as power goes. Most of it in brass. Kinda feels like the early 70's again. So I toldja all that so I could tellya this: Brass or plastic? Not alot of choice here. There is one bright spot on the horizon, though, BlackHawk, if they ever get here. If it's a hit, maybe more big names will climb on board.  Micro-trains
is releasing HOn3 cars. C'mon Atlas! C'mon Athearn! ...We'll see.
   

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

chessi 3802

look at ebay. There is a user named hmaynard. This is Hal Maynard and in my eyes - from what I have seen - the best painter. I actually don't have a model painted by him, but in his auctions he always includes excellent photos of his models (he also sells factory painted models). He uses Scalecoat, and his results are breathtaking. If one wishes he also does some superdetailing prior to painting. HE IS TRULY A PRO!

[chessi3802]

If I could do it, I would have all of motive power be high quality, factory painted brass from OMI. I never thought that I would buy a brass piece but that ended when OMI brought out the Chessie System GP15Ts. I figured I would get one and be happy with it. Nope, I eventually got all five of them! I got bitten by the brass bug and eventually got OMI's unpainted versions of a B&O GP40, C&O SD18 and a C27A caboose. Problem is finding a good and reliable high quality painter to paint unfinished brass (anyone know of anyone?). It's only as good as the paint job that is on them. A bad paint job can seriously devalue a piece of brass. Even brass models have their flaws even when it's supposed to match the prototype. Brass is great for those oddball models that almost never will be mass produced in plastic. However, the quality of plastic models is astronomical today compared to what it was even just ten years ago. If I can get something that is very protypical with DCC and sound for 1/4 of price of a comparable brass unit, plastic wins hands down! I can't believe that someone can pay about $800+ for an OMI unit and it doesn't even come with DCC and sound stock but it'll have operating lights and ditch lights if applicable! Just amazing! Until someone puts out phase II and III GP40s and GP40-s in plastic, I may have to buy a couple of the OMIs. You can't model Chessie without a fleet of GP40s and GP40-2s! Hey, can someone spare a few thousand dollars??

[Anonymous]

I used to do N scale, and the brass stuff was severely limited back then. Now, I have the bug again, and am doing mostly plastic, but I bought a box of assorted locos and cars at a garage sale, and hit the jackpot, there were three brass locos in the bottom of the box. One of them, an RS3, has been repowered, and runs great. One of the other two, an F9, runs ok, but the GP-35 is pretty bad, and I have a Kato motor in the box with it, and it will soon be changed out. The open frame motors were pretty pitiful, and I always wondered why they used such a pitiful motor to drive a very expensive model when a cheap plastic model ran great. My friend's dad had a huge brass collection, and very few of them ran very well out of the box. He spent a lot of time remotoring and regearing them. He was a watchmaker and actually made gears and and other parts for them. Sadly, he's gone now, he would have been a great source for help and parts with cranky brass locos. He could really do nice painting too..

That box of stuff I got had a brand new MRC "momentum" pack, the three brass locos, two Athearn GP-9's NIB, 2 P2K GP20's NIB, a P2K FA1 unopened, a couple of Proto 1K F3's unopened, a basket case Bachman GP-40, a pair of new Athearn PA-1s (NIB), about 50 pieces of brass track, about a hundred pieces of new Atlas code 100 NS track, on the cards. About 12 Athearn box car kits, and a half dozen P2K undecorated car kits.

All for $250 bucks. Almost all of it is NYC from the late 50's to the PC merger time period, just what I wanted! I sold the track to an old guy for 50 bucks. I just asked him to make an offer, and I didn't expect him to offer that much, so I took it right away.

Between that stuff and the stuff from Ebay, I have over 20 running locos, and a couple of buzzers, and a couple of totally dead ones, along with over 30 running cars, and another 20 or so waiting to be built..

Now I have to set up some track to run the stuff. No money right now though. And I have to fight off bidding on stuff on ebay. There's some good deals on flex track...hmmm.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Almost any of my cars - either passenger or freight - are plastic. Perhaps only 2% of my cars are brass. This is because I am running prototypically long trains - 100 or more cars in case of freight trains - with only one steam engine - as it was reality.
But without exception my engines are brass. Most important reason is the fairly large variety available. I am running steam locomotives only - and the plastic industry offers only 4 or 5 models of prototypes interesting to me (the UP Big Boy and Challenger don't belong to these).
Next reason is accuracy. In general even older brass engines are more accurate than recent mass produced models because they reproduce a specific prototype class of a specific railroad. To understand what I mean here are examples: the Proto2000 0-8-0 steamer has been released with a tender in appearence being closest to a NYC tender - but not exactly! And of course it is more away from any other road. Then it is much more justified to me to spend 250 or 300 bucks for a brass engine than 200 or more for that plastic thing. And detail ommisions on older brass models like brake rods or cab to tender deck apron or sand lines or truck chains etc. I can add by myself. Next example are all mass produced articulateds. On all these you will find also the REAR engine being pivoted! Of course with all necessary compromises in detail to allow that! What the hell is all the other detail worth when a discriminating modeller can run these only on straight track?!
And today's brass imports feature a detail level where nearly all things being of importance to me at that scale are present. And the running qualities of these are also unmatched! I have a CB&Q O-5b  and a PRR S1 from Challenger, and these run like butter! NOTHING to hear except the usual rolling noise from between wheels and track!!! Extremely slow these can crawl, too. Nothing more one could wish. Actually I have not one single bad running engine. The older models are louder (often very loud), but usually they run very fine. Add a new motor, and in some cases new gears, and the noise is history.

Because I am steam loco mechanic, fireman and engineer I am a detail fanatic. Compare an Overland N&W class J with a BLI, or a KEY or PFM C&O Allegheny with a Rivarossi, or any brass 2-8-4 with the Proto2000 (these have the most ugly model wheels (drivers) I have ever seen - also the recently "improved driver appearence" only causes marvel that this is possible today), or a Key PRR K-4 with any mass produced one, or a Key or Precision Scale NYC Niagara with the BLI, etc. - you will find omissions over omissions on the plastic engines. And those plastic tenders full with "coal". A situation present in reality only during few minutes after leaving the station. And not only full they are, but in most cases the coal load is also extremely flat - I did never see a realistic plastic "coal" load. I would have to cut it out and detail the tender's interior. And even that wouldn't be the hardest part on some models.
And since I am not the worst in soldering I don't trust in gluing on locomotives as I did before.

With brass models I get what I am looking for: a good to breath taking accurate model of a specific prototype with only few compromises in detail, and - by the way - to hold a model made of brass in the hands and to feel its solidity and robustness is something completely different than with a plastic one. The pleasure to set this on track and watch it running for me is much bigger than with a plastic model.
I would have a large problem to spend $500+ for a Trix or PCM Big Boy or a Rivarossi Allegheny or other ones because they all do not have the detail and appearence I am looking for (and are not made of brass), and because the efforts to redetail these to become a credible representation of their prototypes is huge. But it is much more easy for me (by far I do not belong to the people called "rich" - I simply buy very few models a year - f. e. I needed 8 years to complete my 100 car through freight train) to spend $1000 or more for a GN R-2 or C&O Allegheny in brass, and to add these few omitted details to make a complete and accurate model.

I am not interested to see the plastic locomotives regarded as something bad as concerning most of them I agree to any opinion from "They look nice" to "They are affordable". But the thing I cannot agree is the statement that plastic (or die cast) has reached or even surpassed brass qualities.

Since ebay some brass models are found much easier than before and therefore are somewhat cheaper, but there are still notable exceptions. But I don't care for the value of brass over time because I don't sell any of them.

[modelmaker51]

For me, the material a model is made of is completely irrellanvant. Fidelity to prototype is what matters. I buy for price and modify as needed.

As someone else mentioned, I'm not building a museum, I'm building a model Railroad.

As far as brass being more durable, that's a lot of b.s. As a custome builder I've spent a lot more time rebuilding brass locos, than I ever will plastic. Today's engineering-plastic gears and drive lines are far superior to the old brass and nylon gears and they're a lot quieter too.

Repairing a dropped brass loco requires a lot more work than a plastic one, which can usually just be snapped back together.

So, while a brass loco may be more detail specific, one can easily add details to either to get the model you want, and as far as longevity is concerned, anyone ever see plastic tarnish, or rust, or disintegrate. Doesn't plastic have a lifetime of some 10000 years? by which time all that expensive brass will have turned back into dust.

Bottom line, buy the model you need at the price you can afford, in 100 years we'll all be dead and who's going to care then?

[edkowal]

If plastic models had been available in On2 in the '70s, I would have bought them.  They weren't.
So I bought brass engines.

-Ed

[Texas Zepher]

An interesting topic to bring up again after being started over two years ago.  I saw the writing on the wall when Lifelike started their Heritage series and began selling off my brass collection while the prices were still fairly high.  With the advancement of technology I now believe that almost all prototype models will eventually be made in plastic.   The Precision Craft GN S-2 is a classic example.  In fact, this just happens to be one of the types I sold for big bucks back then.

[Amtrak_Titan]

I would prefer getting Plastic models instead of Brass models. Brass costs like $500 or more. There are a lot of Plastic models avalible. The Plastic are cheaper than brass.

[dinwitty]

depends on the model and circumstances.  and your available money.

say a nickel plate berk is in brass and plastic, and really is in various forms.

If all were the same price and general quality I'll go to the brass.

Thats not the case tho.

I think since plastic prices have gone up, they've actually went to improve the detail quality to near brass. Thats cool.
I hope that trend continues and a great variety of  model equipment steam and diesel become more available.

But for that rare model that doesnt get made or wont prove profitable any other way, it will generally go brass and more expensive.

I have 3 Rivarrosi 2-8-8-2's and I have gone thru reworking one of them putting a motor in the middle, repainting, etc, it pales to the new PCM, I want that so bad.

I have regeared my RR 2-8-8-2 and you have no idea how great it is seeing it crawl, it makes the effect so much bigger when dragging a lead of cars.

[rrebell]

As was originally posted "price no object" Then I would definately go Brass for the following reasons: More durable and robust, will not devaluate but rather increase in value with time, you can actually get "hard to find" types, though in limited quatities. They will stand the test of time.

Regards
Fergie

Will not devalue, have you cheaked the price of brass these days and compared them to 4 or 5 years ago, many have gone way down in price especially the climax and the medium size shays.

[rrebell]

Your wording is extremely bias toward a vote for plastic. Why should one be comparing an excellent plastic loco with a so-so brass one?

In fact, my passion is camelback locomotives. These do not come in plastic with any accuracy of detail what so ever. And when it comes to steam locomotives in general, brass is it a no-contest winner, even compared to those new plastic models that are in the $500+ range. Anybody who owns brass examples of such is fully aware of this.

JB

Since you are into camelbacks and seem to know brass, I need a coulple of small ones for my road and would like your reconmodations, need a lot of details on them as they will be seen with proto 2000 stuff.

[Anonymous]

I'm also thinking it's a little artificial to ignore diecast - especially what's available out there recently.

Between that and the amazingly improved plastic of the last few years, I don't feel any need for brass other than things that can't be got any other way. Unfortunately, with a fetish for streamliners - particularly steam, it's often a choice between questionable quality older Rivarossi (selling for insane prices on E-bay, usually) and Brass.

I was thrilled to see BLI come out with the PRR T-1 and announce the Dreyfus Hudson coming soon. Now if they'd just hurry up with a Hiawatha, John Wilkes and half a dozen others, I'd not have any need for brass at all.

[Virginian]

My first locomotive was a brass N&W Class J.  That was the only way one could get one back then.  I eventually got some Class As and Ys, and a K2a streamlined.  I could not bring myself to part with the bucks for an N&W 4-8-0 or a VGN 2-8-4 or a 2-10-10-2.  As the plastic As and Ys became available I sold brass and got the new plastic locos.  I am down to two brass (sentimental value and still no plastic K2a) and I am quite happy, because fidelity to prototype (within reason) and good smooth running are all I cared about.  Sound is a nice bonus.

I have a few "sort of" VGN 2-8-2s, and I still "need" an N&W M, but I am still unwilling to spend the bucks (and I do not have nearly the money I once did) for either a brass M or MB.

I think the key question everyone needs to ask is do they want or need a loco that is not available any other way, or do they want the extra fine fidelity of a brass engine.  It's your money.

[Charlie]

For me, its brass passenger cars and plastic locomotives as I model the 90's and I model small business/business excursion trains

Ch

[Great Western Rwy fan]

I have 2 brass Ho models,One is a Ken Kidder McKeen motorcar,The other is an Empire Midland 2-10-0 Decapod #90 Great Western Railroad,I don't know how many of these were made by Empire but someone scribbed 1-8 inside the original box.In any event I know they didn't make many of the GW Locomotive.
I bought both of these because the GW had them.other then that I mostly buy plastic proto 2000 as the detail is as good as brass or close anyway,And the price is great.

[SteamFreak]

If money weren't a factor, I'd probably go for brass. There was a local shop that dealt only in brass locos near me with a painted Big Boy that had me drooling all over the display case.  It beat the Trix version hands down, at least aesthetically, but I couldn't justify the $2K price tag. The owner closed up shop in the late 90's, because guys would come in only to shoot the breeze, drink his coffee, and gawk at all brass jewelry. I think he went to mail order, but I don't know if he's still in business. Some of the painted brass I've seen on Evil Bay, like a Samhongsa NP A5 Northern are just gorgeous.

Nelson

[tomikawaTT]

IMHO, it isn't the material the manufacturer used to fabricate the model that counts.  The important things are how it looks after painting and weathering and what use is made of it.  A pristine brass (fill in the blank) in a glass case on somebody's mantel impresses me a lot less than a nicely weathered train set B&O dockside 0-4-0 shuffling cars on somebody's model of Pratt Street.

I personally own models made from just about everything except compressed cow manure, and every single one comes with fond memories about its acquisition, construction and use.  My favorite mainline steamer has a brass superstructure on a pot metal frame, my favorite catenary motor is brass, my favorite diesel-hydraulic is cast pot metal, my favorite EMU cars are brass and my favorite DMU cars are built up from card stock with stamped brass ends.  On my short line, my favorite steam loco (at the moment) is a heavily kitbashed plastic 2-6-6-2, one of my very few plastic locomotives.  My freight cars, or at least a major percentage of them, are steel - honest-to-Murgatroyd tinplate, of correct scale size, proportions and appearance.  I like them all just about equally.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[CAZEPHYR]

If you have been running model trains for forty years or so, the answer was always brass until about 1990 or so.   This has changed in the last five to ten years since my favorite Big Boys and Challengers can be had in plastic with details that rival most of the Key and Overland models.  

I never thought I would purchase Die Cast metal engines until the Trix Big Boy and the Lionel Challenger came out, and I have the PCM also.

So as time changes, so do our habits.  They always say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but it turns out we can change with the times and learn new tricks after all.     

Plastic versus Brass?   Somedays I like brass and other days I like plastic. 

[Ole Timer]

Well .... if you're going to leave the brass engines just set and tarnish and never use them like almost all of them are ... fine . But myself I did'nt get into trains to have a museum ... I use them . I have 3 types ... but my non-painted brass ones look stupid on a realistic layout at the local clubs . Did anyone ever hear of diecast ? Metal ... lower priced than brass ? Yes you can highly detail plastic . And as far as future huge values for brass ... forget it ... Ebay killed that ... don't go by these book values ... someone's dream that you can never get on the market ! Now do you want to get into scale issues ?? LOL

[Anonymous]

Even though brass models are very, very nice, well....... most of them.... I still prefer a plastic model. I think that the plastic holds paint better and it is also easy to fix if an item breaks off. I personally do not have alot of experience with soldering brass engines together, but it seems that if you are running a big boy and it has some mishap which causes a small detail part to bend and/or break off, the repair job would be huge! Not that i don't take good care in my models, but in a house like mine, there is always "that guy" or the "not me, i didn't do it" guy running around. Where, if the item was made out of a plastic shell, it would be 500 times easier to repair. AND nevermind scratches. i could only imagine trying to repair a deep scratch on a brass model. I wouldn't even know where to start. but again, on plastic, putty, sand, paint, DONE!

[Anonymous]

I didn't vote, as more choices and different wording are needed in order to produce meaningful results. Others have already made the key points, but one that perhaps needs to be emphasized is diesel versus steam. While I am mostly steam myself, I model the popular transition era and have some diesel (all plastic) just for the heck of it. I can therefore note from personal experience that there are many truly excellent plastic diesel models in HO (only scale I have experience with) and they run flawlessly - better by at least a small margin than even the best-running brass diesels. Its hard for me to see any reason to invest the extra money in brass diesels especially since diesels are also intrinsically easier to detail, modify and paint than steam. Yet its an interesting paradox that diesel brass has been far more affordable than steam brass for at least 25 years. This fact suggests that the Asian manufacturers have high profit margins and offer diesel brass at lower prices because of the plastic competition.

With steam, on the other hand, outside of the USRA stuff and a handful of very popular locos such as N&W J, or a few articulateds, there is no practical alternative to brass for those who model a prototype. (Same comments also apply to cabooses). Even with the models that I mentioned, it has been only quite recently that quality plastic has come to the steam market (and yes, my LifeLike N&W Y-3 2-8-8-2 is a great model). Quality, accurate plastic models of steam have only been made possible by the incredible run-up in brass steam prices.

I satisfied most of my steam needs via the brass market in 1988-95. About three years ago, I stopped even looking at brass - I simply cannot justify the necessary expenditure even if I can technically afford it. After all, this is only a hobby. With seemingly no end in sight to the price inflation, one wonders what the future of the brass market can be. Certainly if I were starting in the hobby today, I would never consider brass and presumably would therefore have to stick to diesels.

[Anonymous]

I like plastic because it is easier for me to add details and/or kitbash. No soldering is required with plastic.

[JerryZeman]

There isn't a plastic Great Northern or Northern Pacific steam engine available in HO, so that kind of narrows down my preferences.
regards,
Jerry Zeman

[Anonymous]

If money were no object, I'd be buying Overland factory-painted brass. like a previous post. However, given that one brass loco would probably cost more than my whole collection of plastic models, I can't afford to buy brass. Interestingly some manufacturers seem to be making locos with the best of both - Bachmann's new OO scale Class 66 will supposedly have some etched-brass detailing parts factory fitted to enhance the look of the loco.

From what I've seen here, brass locos seem to be rather like older Land Rovers - you can always repair them and get them running again as the basic design is solid and the parts are still available, or more recent parts can be used. In this respect, brass has an edge over plastic if you're looking for locos that will still be running for many years to come.

[cjcrescent]

Jetrock;
I know about the LaBelle kits. They are fun though. Have several of their passeneger cars.

Yeah, it can be frustrating to try to model a RR and there be little or nothing to model with. I know that there will never be any RR to have every engine available in brass or plastic, except maybe a shortline that has only one or two locos. Some RR's like ATSF, NYC, PRR, and UP have had large selections of locos on the market at one time or another, but even with these giants, not every class of engine is or ever will be available.

[Jetrock]

Heck, cjcrescent, my list wasn't even that long--all I was looking for was a couple of Niles or Hall-Scott interurban cars and maybe a Baldwin-Westinghouse or 60-ton GE steeplecab in plastic! For us juice jacks and trolley-jollies, we pretty much have to go with brass, scratchbuild, or build LaBelle kits (and, as the saying goes, "If you want to learn how to scratchbuild interurbans, build a LaBelle kit!")