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The "N" Crowd Locked

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Posted by Wdlgln005 on Sunday, April 1, 2007 2:42 PM

Dewayne, I can't agree with you more! There s/b some standards: TE at 0% equates to x number of 40ft 1oz cars. A grade of 2% cuts that to x-.

A jig for N scale could be made to have a yard/meter stick of Atlas flex/Kato Unitrak. The trick will be to devise a vertical tangent between 0% & 2-4%. I doubt if any Nscale trucks could handle a very sharp angle.

Glenn Woodle
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Posted by navygunner on Monday, April 2, 2007 5:28 AM

Craig,

I run MT low pro's exclusively.  Plastic wheels.  My helix was all Kato unitrack of 13 and 15" radius curves.  It was oval like Indianapolis raceway.  IE 90 degree curve, 248mm straight, 90 degree curve, (3) 249mm straights etc...  I found that with 180 degree turns, that straight lining was much more frequent with long trains.  I even went as far as reinstalling the pizza cutters but was not thrilled with the look, so I went back to lo-pro's and took out the helix.  I've seen a lot of talk about Fox Valley models wheel sets.  The price isn't out of line either.

Bob

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Posted by tjerrard on Monday, April 2, 2007 9:11 PM

Thanks for the info.

Another question - how do you guys find Micro Engineering code 55 flex track to work with and operate on?

Tom

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Posted by nscaler711 on Monday, April 2, 2007 9:34 PM
46 pages already WOW!!

Army National Guard E3
MOS 91B

I have multiple scales now
Z, N, HO, O, and G.  

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Posted by navygunner on Tuesday, April 3, 2007 9:42 AM
 Wdlgln005 wrote:

Dewayne, I can't agree with you more! There s/b some standards: TE at 0% equates to x number of 40ft 1oz cars. A grade of 2% cuts that to x-.

A jig for N scale could be made to have a yard/meter stick of Atlas flex/Kato Unitrak. The trick will be to devise a vertical tangent between 0% & 2-4%. I doubt if any Nscale trucks could handle a very sharp angle.

I have to agree with you.  Kato Unitrak is very unforgiving on transitions in grade.  I am currently playing around with Atlas flex track and Unitrak to get around the abrupt transitions.  I have figured out that grade transitions on curves is one of the most difficult things for medium to long wheel base stuff to negotiate.  85' cars and big steam will give constant problems under this condition.

Bob

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Posted by shawnee on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 7:58 AM

Hello N Scalers! 

I'm an HO guy seriously thinking about switching over to N scale.  I've kinda reached the logical limit in my 10x12 layout on what I can do in HO scale without it getting ridiculous. I guess I'll always be tampering with the layout, and recent tamperings have led me to think...may be time before any more investment is made to switch to N. 

My layout is still very much in basic running/landscape re-shaping stage, haven't really even opened the HO structure model kits I have except for a couple...probably a hundred fifty bucks worth or so. (probably a bit more, but I don't like to count Wink [;)])   I like the smaller scale and it allows more freedom for track in a small space, obviously.  I originally went HO just because I had that as a kid, and wanted to share with my kids.  I really didn't think "n" at the time, it seemed "small". Dunce [D)]

So, a question...please be sincere with me on this...are there any "downsides" to being in N?  Are engines and freight cars harder to come by?  Are engines less robust? The structure model assortment seems fine. I've decided to get into custom painting, but is that just a micro-pain in N?  Are any of you converts from HO,...and can you tell me what a hassle it might be to change al the stuff I have?

What are 1) the things you like best about N, and 2) the things you wish were better, and the things I may miss from HO.

Thanks very much...i can really use some reasoned advice, as this is potentially a big move for me.  I want to do the best thing, either tough it out in HO or go over the wall to N.

Shawnee
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Posted by CascadeBob on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 1:59 PM

To Shawnee:

I've been modeling in N scale since the 1970's.  I came over to N scale from HO because of space limitations in our house in North Carolina which did not have a basement.  I've never regreted the move to N scale.  The main reason I like N scale is because of the realistic ratio of track to scenery that you can have in a given space in N scale.  I like to run passenger trains and long freight trains and the relatively large radius curves (18" and greater) that you can get into a relatively small space is a real plus.  The quality of the locos in N scale has improved considerably since I started in the scale in the '70's.  Kato and Atlas have excellent locos and some of their competitors are raising their own standards of quality.  You may not have as wide a selection in N scale as in HO, but the quality is certainly there.  I especially like the fine details on the N scale freight cars available from Micro Trains.  Size may have an impact on what you can pack into a body shell of a loco with respect to DCC, but you can still get enough electronics into a loco to operate it with DCC.

I'm about to start on my last layout in N scale in a room approximately 21' x 28'.  It's to be a linear walk-around layout patterned after Dave Barrows HO Cat Mountain and Santa Fe that appeared in the September, 1999 issue of Model Railroader.  I'm looking forward to watching my passenger trains and long freights making their way around the broad sweeping curves that I'll be able to build in this much space in N scale.

Welcome to N scale model railroading.

Bob

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Posted by cpeterson on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 2:08 PM

Also responding to Shawnee,

I never operated in HO nor modeled in that gauge but have always been in N scale.  I chose this scale early on like most modelers due to space restrictions, and although that is a good reason, I have found that it also allows some scenic modeling that other scales don't allow.  The scenery to trains ration is much larger in N and make it much more enjoyable for railfaning.  Industries can be bigger, yards and ammount of trackage can be increased.  The engines have improved dramatically over the last 20 years, with DCC now making most on par with their HO counterparts.

You will not have any trouble painting or decaling.  Some difficulty with detailing because of the small size but still possible.

Operating as far as uncoupleing cars is the only down side I've found, you just have to be more carefull, but it is a much smaller problem with well laid track and good microtrains couplers on everything.

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Posted by wm3798 on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 2:49 PM

Tom - Micro Engineering Code 55 is very nice track, but it can be a pain to work with.  It doesn't flex as easily as Atlas, and working kinks out of it is time consuming.  But it looks great, has fewer flange problems than Atlas, and a lot of guys are willing to do the extra work.

Personally, I switched to Atlas c55 with my current layout, and have recently finished switching all of my rolling stock to RP-25 compliant wheelsets.  I just got my first set of Fox Valley wheels, and it's mighty tempting to dump a few more bucks into them.  They are excellent.

Shawnee -  Come over to the Dark Side.  I've custom painted my own N scale stuff for years, but I also chose a paint scheme that more or less comes out of a can!  If you like small steam, you'll be disappointment with the performance in N scale, although there is a surprising variety available in N.  If you dig diesels, you'll be just fine.  Typical train length on most layouts is about 20 cars, which can easily be handled by one or two of the recent road diesel releases.  Some are better than others, but generally speaking, they're all good.  If you dig DCC, there's plenty out there also.

There are lots of N scale forums on line, such as Atlas, Railwire, and Scale Rails Online, as well as this thread, where you can learn about specific makes and models, techniques and challenges.  They say that in HO you can model a train, but in N you can model a railroad.  I think that's pretty accurate.  Welcome, and N Joy!

Lee 

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

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Posted by NS2591 on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 4:12 PM

Shawnee: I'm a recent Converty from HO to N. I'm glad I did I can do alot more Railroading in the same space. The Katos are just as good as they are in HO. The Atlas engines are pretty good too. The track less forgiving but if you take your time its great.

To Everyone else:  Yesterday I started to rip up about 30 feet of mainline due to a major realignment(Benchwork and everything) Today I finished ripping it up, after dinner(now 5:10PM EST) I'm gonna start rearranging the benchwork and adding to the benchwork. I'm hoping by friday afternoon(Spring Break starts on Friday) I will have the mainline back in service and most of the switches that directly effect the mainline back in too.

Jay Norfolk Southern Forever!!
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Posted by nscaler711 on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 4:21 PM

to Shawnee

Normal Scale jus plain an' simply rocks

its really good for scenery, large switching industries, long freights/passanger service,  also it looks good too

the only few downsides are u need a magna-fying glass to read warning labels, not many products out there and yes they will break if dropped an height of about ur waist. but thats about it.  Also

Welcome to the dark side Evil [}:)] nah jus kiddin 

question for all

why do they call most n-scalers the 'dark side'? 

Army National Guard E3
MOS 91B

I have multiple scales now
Z, N, HO, O, and G.  

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Posted by shawnee on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 5:37 PM

Thanks for the info...It's a big move for me to come over to N, since I have so much HO stuff.  But it perhaps is a good move for me now, since I'm about to change my layout and especially since a lot of my HO structures are still in the box..it's really just benchwork, track and some scenery now.   I model contemporary era, not diesels.  I want to paint my own freelance road, but am not hyper about micro-detailing.  I like big scenery.  My current HO layout occasionally seems a joke in size on a 10x12...and my family is not likely to grant me more room.    I'm in Kato Unitrack on HO anyway, and like the Kato stuff, so it would be comfortable for me to switch to Kato N.  So there's not a lot of roadbed to rip up either.  There's so much more in Kato N.

Wish I wasn't so boneheaded and looked into N a year ago.

Can N engines handle (long, gradual) 3% grades?  I have a coal area on top and one branch reaches that high, and I kinda like my mountain rail.  I've had no problem with my HO Katos on that grade...

Only other down size besides current inventory is my kids like HO. It may be easier for them to handle.

Thanks guys.  I think I'll go to LHS this weekend and look harder at some of the models and get a better sense of the size. It'sa definitely worth considering.

 

Shawnee
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Posted by Wdlgln005 on Thursday, April 5, 2007 8:30 PM

Shawnee, IMHO no scale likes a steep 3% grade. In Nscale, the best haulers tend to be cab style (E/PA or F/FA) diesels. It's hard to beat an ABBA set of FT's with 16 wheels picking up current & suppling power.

Comparing Horribly Oversize to Normal, there may be a few models not yet produced for N. Atlas seems to be the leader in filling some of the gaps. You get decent coverage of EMD, GE, Alco, with some FM's. Not many Baldwins, no Lima or other small builders. Quality is something to watch out for. Your LHS should have a try before you buy or a liberal return policy if something is out of wack. Many models won't survive in a rough handled drop to the floor. You need a well lighted area when you do any work. I suggest getting an Ott Light work light & an Optivisor in your tool set. You will also need a set of smaller screwdrivers & other tools. Check out the MicroMark catalog.

The last thing you will need is a good digital camera. Get something that can get a good picture of a business card. Bring your photos over to forums like Atlas SNFF & others. Nscalers like to see the models you are building!  

Glenn Woodle
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Posted by Bikerdad on Saturday, April 7, 2007 1:23 AM

So, a question...please be sincere with me on this...are there any "downsides" to being in N?  Are engines and freight cars harder to come by?  Are engines less robust? The structure model assortment seems fine. I've decided to get into custom painting, but is that just a micro-pain in N?  Are any of you converts from HO,...and can you tell me what a hassle it might be to change al the stuff I have?

What are 1) the things you like best about N, and 2) the things you wish were better, and the things I may miss from HO.

*************************************************************************

Yes, Shawnee, there are downsides to N.  The biggest is the vastly greater array of products available for HO.  This is most apparent once you get before the transition era, and 19th century rolling stock is almost non-existent.  The other big product availability gap is with scenic accessories, especially vehicles.  The choice of vehicles in N scale is much smaller than HO, and is almost tragic once you get out of the Transition Era, regardless of whether you're coming uptime or heading downtime.  The best way to get a handle on whether the disparity will affect you is to pick up a copy of the Walther's N Scale catalog and then see how much of the stuff you have in HO is available in N.

A second downside is the advantage all the larger scales have when it comes to implementing sound.  Physics don't care that we want better sound, a smaller speaker just ain't gonna have the downlow oomph of a larger speaker.  And that's when you can find a place for the speaker!

Finally, there's a third downside.  N scale doesn't save you any money.  Instead of running 15 car trains, you run 30.  You can justify putting an ABBA set on the head of a train without it looking dorky, but that just means you've got 40+ cars and 4 locomotives where in HO you did with an AB set and 20 cars.  More turnouts in a given area.  Etc, etc....., although you can reduce the density somewhat in order to "open" up the layout (and save money to boot!)

Those are the downsides, for most of us posting in this thread, the upsides outweigh the downs.  Scenery is grander, trains are longer, etc.

I generally put it this way:

  • If you want to model locomotives and cars, O Scale is the ticket.
  • If you want to model trains and scenes, HO scale is da bomb.
  • If you want to model a railroad, N scale is outtadisworld.
  • G and Z just take O and N to extremes.

Grace and peace, BD - happily modelling in N scale for 4 years, yet still envying HO's 19th century goodies and modern vehicles.

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Posted by Chuck Geiger on Sunday, April 8, 2007 2:15 PM
well said BIKERDAD. I am noticing after a year in N scale, if you keep the layout simple and focus on expanded scenery and less structures and congestion, it looks better and you don't have to over compensate with items that aren't available yet in N scale.

 

 

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Posted by Blue Flamer on Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:06 PM

  Confused [%-)]    I hadn't been on the computer for a week and went looking for The "N" Crowd to catch up on the latest . I finally found it 10 pages back with nothing new added since I was last on line. I guess we are all getting better at what we do in N Scale.

Hopefully, this little note will get The "N" Crowd to the forefront  where it belongs.

Best to all.Thumbs Up [tup]

Blue Flamer.  

"There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"." Dave Barry, Syndicated Columnist. "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." Doctor Who.
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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Monday, April 16, 2007 12:49 AM
 tjerrard wrote:

Would like to know the thinking on grades in 'N' and steam engines. What is the general feeling of max grade for N scale steam with say a 30 car train?

Tom 



I have some news for you, podnah!  If you want to pull a 30 car train with an N-Scale steamer you had better be on a down grade!!!

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Monday, April 16, 2007 1:03 AM
 tjerrard wrote:

Thanks for the info.

Another question - how do you guys find Micro Engineering code 55 flex track to work with and operate on?

Tom



Your question reminds me of the joke about the waiter who asks the customer, "How did you find your steak, sir?" to which the customer responds, "I just moved the potato and there it was."

In the absence of Code 45 rail I wouldn't use anything else - at least not for the mainline; my new/next layout is going to use Code 40 for industrial trackage and sidetracks.

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Monday, April 16, 2007 1:14 AM
 shawnee wrote:

Hello N Scalers! 

I'm an HO guy seriously thinking about switching over to N scale.  I've kinda reached the logical limit in my 10x12 layout on what I can do in HO scale without it getting ridiculous. I guess I'll always be tampering with the layout, and recent tamperings have led me to think...may be time before any more investment is made to switch to N. 

My layout is still very much in basic running/landscape re-shaping stage, haven't really even opened the HO structure model kits I have except for a couple...probably a hundred fifty bucks worth or so. (probably a bit more, but I don't like to count Wink [;)])   I like the smaller scale and it allows more freedom for track in a small space, obviously.  I originally went HO just because I had that as a kid, and wanted to share with my kids.  I really didn't think "n" at the time, it seemed "small". Dunce [D)]

So, a question...please be sincere with me on this...are there any "downsides" to being in N?  Are engines and freight cars harder to come by?  Are engines less robust? The structure model assortment seems fine. I've decided to get into custom painting, but is that just a micro-pain in N?  Are any of you converts from HO,...and can you tell me what a hassle it might be to change al the stuff I have?

What are 1) the things you like best about N, and 2) the things you wish were better, and the things I may miss from HO.

Thanks very much...i can really use some reasoned advice, as this is potentially a big move for me.  I want to do the best thing, either tough it out in HO or go over the wall to N.



Shawnee, I'm not sure just how old you are but there are  twelve "downsides" to N-Scale: ten of these are called fingers and the other two are called eyes.  And when you get to my age - mid-60s - they get even more "downsides" every year!!!

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by Blue Flamer on Monday, April 16, 2007 5:07 PM
 R. T. POTEET wrote:
 shawnee wrote:

Hello N Scalers! 

I'm an HO guy seriously thinking about switching over to N scale.  I've kinda reached the logical limit in my 10x12 layout on what I can do in HO scale without it getting ridiculous. I guess I'll always be tampering with the layout, and recent tamperings have led me to think...may be time before any more investment is made to switch to N. 

My layout is still very much in basic running/landscape re-shaping stage, haven't really even opened the HO structure model kits I have except for a couple...probably a hundred fifty bucks worth or so. (probably a bit more, but I don't like to count Wink [;)])   I like the smaller scale and it allows more freedom for track in a small space, obviously.  I originally went HO just because I had that as a kid, and wanted to share with my kids.  I really didn't think "n" at the time, it seemed "small". Dunce [D)]

So, a question...please be sincere with me on this...are there any "downsides" to being in N?  Are engines and freight cars harder to come by?  Are engines less robust? The structure model assortment seems fine. I've decided to get into custom painting, but is that just a micro-pain in N?  Are any of you converts from HO,...and can you tell me what a hassle it might be to change al the stuff I have?

What are 1) the things you like best about N, and 2) the things you wish were better, and the things I may miss from HO.

Thanks very much...i can really use some reasoned advice, as this is potentially a big move for me.  I want to do the best thing, either tough it out in HO or go over the wall to N.



Shawnee, I'm not sure just how old you are but there are  twelve "downsides" to N-Scale: ten of these are called fingers and the other two are called eyes.  And when you get to my age - mid-60s - they get even more "downsides" every year!!!

Shawnee.

I'm pushing 68 and I normally wear Tri-Focals all the time. When I start working on the fiddly stuff, (anything smaller than a heavyweight passenger car), I put on my lighted magnifying visor with double magnifiers and a monacle lense in front of those. When I have the specs and the magnifiers on, even a Kadee Nscale coupler mounting screw looks as big as a Big Boy. But those Jolly Green Giant fingers holding it are something else again.

Even with these minor restrictions, there is still nothing like the Dark Side. So come on over, you'll get lots of help.

Blue Flamer. 

"There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"." Dave Barry, Syndicated Columnist. "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." Doctor Who.
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Posted by CSXFan on Monday, April 16, 2007 7:55 PM
Anyone ever have trouble with Atlas's c55 turnouts? I've been breaking them left and right. I lay a can of soup on top of the turnout when I lay it down, but the last three times I've done that I've had replace the turnout. There is a tiny washer under the hinge that holds the points down. I keep on popping them off and they're near impossible to put back on. I've lost two of those washers so far. Anyone else ever have this problem, or did I get a bad batch?
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space...Wink
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Posted by Cederstrand on Monday, April 16, 2007 9:41 PM

I would love to share photos of my layout, but presently it is still inside my head. My first Train Room is nearly finished, but still needs a cement floor which will have to wait for more funds. So, at least there has been some progress towards my dream layout.

I collect N scale and tricked...er...I mean "helped my wife discover HO". Both of us have poorer vision than we did when younger, which is why she prefers HO. I've had N from early childhood, so I'm stuck on it. Besides, I really do like the amount of "stuff" one can pack into an N size layout. This brings up a question, although it might be best to post it under it's own subject line(?): Has anyone effectively combined HO & N scales before and if so, are there any examples of it on the web? Would be nice to trick...uh...I mean "include my wife in building the layout".

:^) -Rob  

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Posted by ballhog24 on Monday, April 16, 2007 10:02 PM

Good evening fellow N scalers!! I have not posted on here before (that I'm aware of), but remembered the site and wanted to share. I have started putting together an N scale layout in my hobby room/home office. It's mostly an around the wall layout, with two larger sections; one 32" x 48" at one end, the other will be 45" x 72" at the other end.

I have yet to name the pike, but I have gotten roadbed down on just under 1/2 of it, and tonight I laid two sections of Atlas flex track. After the glue set, I just HAD to test it, so I put power to the sections, and ran five different engines back and forth a few times!!

So now I have a 36" point to point railroad!!

Just wanted to share.

 MichaelTongue [:P]

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Posted by tjerrard on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:34 AM

Thanks for the response on my grade and code 55 questions.

I was able to get a single level of my helix put together for test purposes. It went very well with a Bachmann Consolidtion pulling 35 cars upa 0.6% grade which gave a seperation of top subroadbed to bottomsubroadbed of 2 inches, on .5inch ply. Digitrax throttle was set to between 50 and 60 and the engine pulled very well.

When I get back from my roadtrip I will add a second layer and test again. I will need 8 layers to get from lower to upper level.

Tom 

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Posted by Cederstrand on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:01 PM

[I have some news for you, podnah!  If you want to pull a 30 car train with an N-Scale steamer you had better be on a down grade!!!]

OR... you can take a Mallet, fill the tender with the largest can motor that can be squeezed into it, fill any remaining gaps with lead, run a shaft with universal into the engine, fill every nook & cranny of that with lead as well, and it will "easily pull 30 cars" for you, no problem! Best pulling brute in my collection by far, including the diesels. :^) -Rob 

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Posted by navygunner on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:21 AM

Or you could try a B'mann J or Athearn Challenger.  Each will pull a 30 car train made up of MTL or IM box cars and can ascend a 2% grade without any problem out of the box.  I'm not saying that these examples will meet everyones needs, just that they will pull better than most anything currently available whether its diesel or steam.  They are not perfect, but as far as traction and electrical pickup, they are what we have asked for in N Scale.

Bob

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Posted by Cederstrand on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:53 PM

I am sure you are right there, Bob. I didn't think to mention my Challenger, BigBoy, and other larger engines, as my personal favrite is that Mallet I rebuilt. It could probably outpull any two other stock articulates combined without even a hint of wheel spin. ;^) One day, when I have my dream layout built with the really long winding grades, I'll test my assumptions. Ahh, that will be such fun. I want to put 100 cars behind it and see how it does. (((more power....grunt grunt grunt))) :^) -Rob

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Posted by TrainsRMe1 on Friday, April 20, 2007 11:19 PM
Hey Guys I'm new to this 'N' thread,I'm glad we have this to go to. I'm working on a basement layout called the Union Pacific Orgon Coast subdivision,from Eugene to (freelanced Tonka City )to Coos Bay. SP has a secondary mainline from California,BNSF has a line coming in from Central Oregon, when I get pic's I will post them as soon as I can, Take care and see you soon 
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Posted by selector on Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:57 AM

I hope you will forgive an HO interloper, folks, but I couldn't help noticing the huge post and look counts that Dave's timely thread seems to have garnered from the membership.  So, I just wanted to congratulate Dave for a good idea, and the rest of you for making a solid go of this thread.  It speaks volumes about the popularity of your scale, and that can't help but be good for the hobby in general.

I wonder if MR would consider converting it to a fixture with its own forum...would be handy, if nothing else.

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Posted by nscaler711 on Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:27 AM

Does Any one have a B-mann 4-8-4 Northern?

if so how does she run? 

Army National Guard E3
MOS 91B

I have multiple scales now
Z, N, HO, O, and G.  

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