A question for "Old Timers"

[locomcf]

I'm an "old timer" with a medium sized, block-control layout, and about 40 locos that get used regularly. The classification yards at each end of my layout have rotary switches which allow me to assign control of a block to "left throttle", "right throttle" or "yard throttle". Mainline tracks and intermediate town tracks are controlled by DPDT toggle switches, to allow allocation to either the Left or Right throttle. Normally, the Left throttle is used for the local freight, and the Right throttle is used to run trains between the staging yards at each end (beyond the classificaton yards).

I've used DCC a few times, and I can only see one compelling reason to convert my layout. It will allow me to run two or more engines simultaneously in each of my yards, and multiple local freights.

When money permits, I will convert my yard switchers to DCC and then hook up DCC to the Yard throttle positions. Later on I will convert my local freight engines and the Left throttle position the same way. Then - one day - I'll start converting the through train locos as well. This seems to me to be an easy way into DCC, although I can see that it could be a bit risky if operators overrun their blocks.

Any feedback in this idea will be gladly received.

[Anonymous]

I've been modeling railroads for 20 years and made the jump to DCC about 5yrs ago. Theres just one reason I switched. SOUND. Sound made me switched but once there I'd never go back.

[Anonymous]

I switched to DCC about four years ago. The hardest part is putting decoders in the engines that I had before the "plug and play" (if you believe that, I have some swamp land to sell you) became the vogue in engines. I still have a hard time finding the right wires to connect to the right wires on the decoder. However, that said, the operation is fantastic once you have enough feeders to your track. We run a six person operating group and I would hate to have to try to run it with old DC block control.

[BRAKIE]

I currently use DCC/Sound on my home layout and DC at the club..Looking back I would not bother with DCC and Sound.The reason being I feel that DCC with go like all of the other operating systems used over the years and be replace with a new and improved control system and don't see DCC as a wave of the future and as this was said about all of the other operating systems from years gone by..

[dave9999]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

dave9999, If messing with all that makes you happy have fun. For me I'll stick with KISS. I would rather spend time detailing my layout and rebuilding structures than playing with torque curves. I'm amased my system and locos even run, let alone tweeking them. In fact, the reason I went with DCC was to make it simpler with less switches to throw and electronic feldercarb to worry about. But that's what makes it the worlds greatest hobby, the diversity. FRED

Fred ,
I agree 100% , the acutal building of the layout is one of the most enjoyable parts of this
hobby. To be able to take what's in our heads and put it on a couple of sheets of plywood, to me makes it ALL worthwhile. I was ask by sully57 to give my opinon on the MRC/Digitrax comparison, to which I did. I had two loco's I wanted to run in a consist, but they were
complete mismatches operationaly. If I had not been able to "mess with all that" these loco's
would never have run together. Now they do. So, "messing with all that" does have a purpose!
Aint forums fun!!! Dave

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

well I have now been in HO for forty years....
I will eventually make the shift but I want to be sure that it doesn't change again before doing it. I don't need to invest thousands in a system that is going to change again like it did before so I will wait awhile.

That's kinda the thought I had, too. Technology changes too fast nowadays. It seems you have to buy a new computer every 3-4 years just to keep up with the software requirements. Soon you'll have to scrap you TV sets when the new HD standards become mandatory (yea, I know there will be converters, at first, for awhile at least, but I'm trying to make a point here!) There has been a generaton grown up now to accept certain things as "normal" (like paying to watch TV, and I see the same thing happening to radio on the horizon for the future), and buying the newest cell phone or computer upgrade as they come out - and at considerable $$ in many cases. Us "old timers" remember how the quality of some things were determined, not at least primarily by how many new or eye popping features they may have had, but ultimately by how long they lasted.

So having said all this, I personally would be afraid that after having spent all this time, effort, and big bucks to get your layout and locomotive fleet switched over to DCC, in a couple years your current system, and/or decoders, would become obsolete and you would have to start all over again to upgrade to just keep up so you could run your "toys".

Take care,

[Anonymous]

dave9999, If messing with all that makes you happy have fun. For me I'll stick with KISS. I would rather spend time detailing my layout and rebuilding structures than playing with torque curves. I'm amased my system and locos even run, let alone tweeking them. In fact, the reason I went with DCC was to make it simpler with less switches to throw and electronic feldercarb to worry about. But that's what makes it the worlds greatest hobby, the diversity. FRED

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

...DCC frees your operation so much I have a hard time imagining how we operated before DCC. With DCC you just concentrate on driving the train and how the switches are lined. No worrying about the block or block toggles or rotaries.

Hi Dave,

Not to take an opposing view, just an opposing view point. Around here, most of us don't have to worry "about the block or block toggles or rotaries" either, and we also can "concentrate on driving the train and how the switches are lined", because we let the dispatcher take care of those items as one of his duties. Not strictly prototypical but he's off in his little area, doesn't seem to mind, and it's all pretty much seamless to the operators.


> No hugely complicated control panels.

Personally, I like em for two reasons: First, I like the oh-ah, "bells and whistles" value when people see it - I guess all the lights and switches on the old Chicago Science & Industry layout of Minton Cronkite made that impression on me as a kid. Second, I never got that far in my past layouts over the years except the one in the old house. I was in the middle of actually building it when we decided to purchase our current home. Talk about work coming to a grinding halt!

Finally, I rationalize that dispatchers in CTC territory are using, what at least looks to most as, "...hugely complicated control panels" anyway, so what the heck.

Take care,

[dave9999]

Fred,
Go to digitrax web site and read the decoder manual.Read sections 5.0 & 6.0. Note the special effects
lighting (sec. 6.10), torque compensation and switching speed (sec. 6.11),funtion remapping (sec. 6.12),
and one of the most important of all, throttle response curves and loadable speedtables(sec. 6.13).This
gives you total control over the way your loco response to throttle commands. These are only a few examples.
Read the entire manual and you will better understand what I'm getting at.
After that see soundtraxx decoder manual. Soundtraxx decoders have several built in bell and whistle
and horn sounds, plus the options I mentioned above, which with the Prodigy you have no access to any of these CV's . Anyway, like I said before, it all depends on what you want to do. I guess my point is
why spend about the same money for so much less. The digitrax lets you get into the "guts" of the decoder
and not just the BASIC operational features.
Thanks for your reply. Dave

[ndbprr]

well I have now been in HO for forty years. I would love to go DCC but two things stop me.
1. Too many engines to convert and the subsequent cost
2. I jumped into PFM sound and would have to take a total loss at this point.

I will eventually make the shift but I want to be sure that it doesn't change again before doing it. I don't need to invest thousands in a system that is going to change again like it did before so I will wait awhile.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999

With the Zephyr you have the ability to program all cv's , the MRC allows you only to set start ,mid,
and max voltage ,set acceleration/deceleration, and set up a consist. Thats about it.
With D/Zephyr you have complete control of all funtions of the decoder. The MRC is basicly
just for running DCC loco's whereas Zephyr lets you program your loco's so you can take full
advantage of DCC.

You lost me here? What other functions are you speaking of? I have a MRC and I'm wondering what my locos could do with a Zephyr system that they can't do now? My MRC has sound, and it can reverse and operate headlights too. So what else is there? FRED

[dave9999]

sully57,
I purchased the digitrax zephyr all-in one set ,which included DCS50 command station booster,
PS315 power supply, and LT1 Loconet Cable and decoder tester. I paid just under $200, but as
with most things I've seen them cheaper. As for the MRC Prodigy system, it has limited features.
With the Zephyr you have the ability to program all cv's , the MRC allows you only to set start ,mid,
and max voltage ,set acceleration/deceleration, and set up a consist. Thats about it.
With D/Zephyr you have complete control of all funtions of the decoder. The MRC is basicly
just for running DCC loco's whereas Zephyr lets you program your loco's so you can take full
advantage of DCC. After all they are about the same price. With zephyr you get alot more bang
for your buck. The Zephyr comes with 2 manuals and the MRC has complete instructions on
the back of the hand held. So that alone tell me which one has the most to offer. Dave

Also with the MRC if you want to program anything other than what I mentioned above
you would have to take your loco to a hobby shop, or a freind that programs decoders.
I have 2 locos W/sound decoders and I can adjust the volumes and change bell and
whistle sounds. I could go on and on. It all depends on what you want to do with DCC.

[dave9999]

sully57,
The Digitrax Zephyr is ready to go straight from the box. You can run one loco without a decoder as address
"00" . Other loco's must have decoders installed. Although you can run the one w/o a decoder it makes a
singing sound. According to the manual, this is caused by the DCC signal when it is applied to an analog
loco. It also says to avoid heat build up, they recommend not leaving analog loco's sitting on DCC powered
track for long periods of time while not running. At my local hobby shop,they have a switch wired so they
can switch between DC and DCC operation. Hope this helps. Dave

[sully57]

Dave, I just read your last post (after I sent mine). Anyway, may I ask which Zephyr you purchased? Approximate cost? And what were the MRC limitations which made you change? Not being nosy, just want to purchase the 'right' one. You know - "an educated consumer ....... " Thank you.

[sully57]

Interesting comments all, on this topic. Although I will begin my purchases within weeks, I am still a fence-sitter on this topic. Seems the most inexpensive DCC (new) I have found is on Loystoys website. The Zephyr / D-Zephyr goes for $160. Now this includes command station, booster, and throttle. Also the picture shows the included power pack which goes into ac socket. Now, I suspect this is alot, but still incomplete. To actually use this, I suspect there is more. I know the locos must have decoders. Anything else missing from this description guys?

Also, if I purchase this or any other of the popular DCC transformers, I can still use older locomotive (without decoder installed). Without any restrictions, Correct? I ask this question, because cturnquist6 (above) seemed to think it was advantageous to not only have DCC, but to maintain his layout's DC integrity as well.

PS anyone here have experience with this Zephyr / D-Zephyr starter system ?

Thanks!

[dave9999]

Again, thanks fof the input. By the way ,my reference to " old timers" simply meant someone with more
experience in the hobby. Being nearly 35 yrs old myself , I'm no spring chicken! But with only a little
more than a year in the hobby, I'm definitly green.I understand that DCC is for the most part new and
a lot of you have spent a lot of time, money, and late nights to design and build your dream layouts.
I know that I have planned for the day when I could get involved in model railroading, but never made
time.But now that I have, I wish I'd made time before. Well, I look forward to being called an "old timer"
one day. Again thanks for the advice and comments. Dave

P.S. I went with the Digitrax Zephyr system , cost a little more, but the features more than make up for the cost. Tried the MRC Prodigy (too limited).

[Anonymous]

You asked "old timers" if they were making the switch. You will find - on average - that "old timers" have substantially larger layouts than the new kids on the block. So many won't want to make the transition from DC to DCC. As some have indicated, the cost of conversion is high because the owner could easily have one hundred engines to convert - or some engines won't take the conversion easily, or some are too cheap to convert but the owner enjoys running them anyway.

The advantage for the new person coming in is that if you decided on DCC from the Get Go, then make sure you purchase engines that are DCC ready or DCC equipped (lots of them out there).

Also for those teens who want to go DCC on a 4 by 8 layout but don't have the bucks, consider buying a "used" MRC2000 unit on ebay for around $50. It will need a separate power source but initially you can get away with running two engines at least with your current MRC DC power unit. MRC2000 DCC is the worst of the DCC units out there, but I always maintain the worst DCC unit is better than the best DC unit. The MRC2000 has three throttles on the command station, so you and a buddy can run a train separately. It will get you into the game called DCC, and though not very refined, it will allow you to learn about DCC and when you do get your dream DCC system, you will be far more informed about DCC than the average DC guy out buying his first DCC system. Pass your MRC2000 down to another financially challenged teen when you get your new DCC system to replace your MRC2000 unit. Others will tell you there are better entry level systems and this is absolutely true, but not at bargain basement prices.

[cturnquist6]

Sure,DCC is fairly expensive and if you get hooked on sound,do some serious budget planning.Aside from cost, the "addition" for me was fairly simple.My DC railroad is dectected and signaled.I use rotary block selectors so the addition of DCC only required wiring it to an open pole on each selector.Now I can run DC or DCC .

[CBQ_Guy]

Dave,

I've been in the hobby almost 50 years! In a nutshell, I probably WON'T be going DCC on the new basement filling dream layout I'm planning. BUT...I firmly believe DCC or some variation of it is the wave of the the future, and basically just the way it will be done someday - period!

So my advice to you new guys is go with the future!

[der5997]

Having gone from HO to N when moving house, I'm building the new layout as if it's going to be DCC. At present it's DC. Converting locos shouldn't be too much of a chore as I've only 3 that matter, and one may not stay.
How long in the hobby? I got bitten by the OO bug in England at school in the 1950s, and then had a reinfestation in about 1975 when my daughter asked for a train set for Christmas.[:)]

[Anonymous]

DCC is getting better all the time but there's a lot of maturing to do. It's not as easy as the industry lead us to believe. Pop the shell, drop in the decorder with a standard NMRA plug, program the decorder and THROTTLE UP. Sounds easy, like changing the batteries in your TV remote control and power up.

From posts from other modelers the installation could be a lot more user-friendly.

[Anonymous]

They built a Metrolink train depot across the parking lot from our club's building. We are very sure our ancient building will soon be upgraded or destroyed for new construction. Thus the 1978 era DC transistor throttle walkaround controls may find a new home. Many think that is the best way to go. None of them pulled the wire and installed the controls and relays. Few of them can maintain the DC system. We are still using the temporary 2 bus set up that we installed to get going. We always seem to search for the last switch to get a stalled locomotive moving. DCC seems more complex to the members who do not repair our current birds nest. DCC seems to require the re-equipping of all their locomotives at the same time so they can run on the new layout. The unknowns are just too scary to contemplate!

I am going to convert to DCC with the capability of running DC if I must. This 72 year old modeler is not going to spend more hours under the track bed routing wire while the "not-so-dumb" innocents run trains. If you start from the zero dollar and look at the costs for a new layout, DCC wins; it will cost less for the club and the members to run trains! It is the new technology. Look to the future for the fulfillmernt of your dreams; remember the frustrations of the past and get away from them.
Lindsay

[Anonymous]

coalfired,

No one is coming at you with pitchforks and torches. I enjoyed your post. I was reading about Linn Wescott's article about radio communications via CDC in a train room. I believe it was written a long time ago.

DCC is a wonderful thing indeed. I suppose the next step is to have the engines learn the layout and simply download a assingment wirelessly and take off about it's duties. This may happen in 10 years. The thought of sentinet model equiptment takes me back to Space 1999 and "Hal open the cargo bay doors"

Lee

[IRONROOSTER]

I guess 30 years qualifies me to answer. My layout currently under construction is dc, but I did get MRC's Command 2000 to experiment with. If I like it, I'll convert. It's not that critical in my case, because I planned my layout to minimize block switching.
Enjoy
Paul

[bruce22]

went to dcc when i built my 4th layout, having recently retired and relocated i am now on #5, continue to use dcc and very pleased with the flexibility it offers. Incidentally, I am farther ahead with this layout after 1 year than I have ever been. Retirement----------- I love the freedom of choice.

[Anonymous]

Coalfired comments about the DeSoto battery reminds me of visiting the Amish neighbors layout, they use 1/4" scale locos powered by sticks and water because they don't use electric. Ever see how they get on the internet? http://www.mystique.net/amish.html has one of their secret laptops. I have a 46 Desoto that I built into a street rod, see it at http://www2.mo-net.com/~fmiller/fred.html ...FRED

[Anonymous]

Been in the hobby for 48 years,DCC is what we dreamed about for decades.Who in the world would stick with DC is beyond me.Expensive?,sure,do you have to change everything overnight?,of course not! I still run feeders to every 3 sections of track off of buss lines,and jumpers across those joints on those three sections.So someone tell me what's the big problem converting old layouts.I've always overwired my layouts,like wearing a belt and suspenders! It gives you trouble free operation.This is a new and last layout for me, and as far as wiring goes, it is being done the same old way except for those few differences required by DCC.Let's see,I can go into or out of a reverse loop without a gang of electrical switches to throw,and in and out of the roundhouse with no switches,all locos can run in unison,steam and/or Diesel! If money is a problem,MRC,I think they're reasonable. Wait !,I think I'll toss out my DCC and go take my battery out of the old DeSoto,after all that's how they used to run model railroads! I'm just having some fun with you die hards,but really,this is what old timers really did dream about,in fact DCC exceeds our wildest dreams. Hey!, how come you guys have computers,telegraphs always worked well.Oh-oh,I'd better get otta here,I think I see torches and pitchforks coming over the horizon.Just have fun anyway you can,even if you do have to keep refilling those kerosene lamps.OK,OK,I'm going!

[Anonymous]

I'm not an old timer ( I'm 12 years old ) but I am currently considering using DCC. I don't have a laoyut yet but I think it will be an Oklahoma version of Ian Rice's Hollow Run Railroad in his book "Small, Smart , Practical Trackplans " it is 4x8 with a hole in the center that is accessed by a gate. I think I will also add a 2x4 extinsion. if I do get DCC I will still have a DC power pack as I do not want to convert locos that are not DCC ready. could anyone recomend a very simple DCC system ? I am currently considering an Atlas system or Bachmann's newly announced system.

[Anonymous]

I have engines that run well on dc, as Flee pointed out, these dc engines will run on DCC.

However I am looking into one or two engines with DCC to assist in yard work or way frieght.

30 years for me, I am kind of stubborn and DC will never die. However, I am working on incorperating the best of the hobby. The main constraint is dollars. So, I plan carefully months ahead what I will do. (Except at the annual train meet, I sometimes bring home items unrelated to my "master plan" he he)

Good Luck

Lee

[Anonymous]

A thing it seems several "old timers" overlook (on purpose?) is most (if not all) DCC systems will run non decoder equipped trains as well or better than a straight DC pack (pulsed DC). One can plug the dcc unit in place of a current "cab" and use it as a they would a dc pack. They can then still flip all their switches and run their new fangled DCC loco and/or their old locos at the same time too. They act like it's an either/or change, but it's not. Example: Replace cab 1 with DCC on a 2 cab system. You can run 1 dc loco plus 32 or more dcc locos on cab 1 plus 1 dc loco on cab 2 all at once. Sure you can wait for wireless (it is already here). But then you will say you are waiting for the new shrink ray that will let you drive them yourself. As to brand, wow, that's like what brand of beer tastes better. or is less filling. Ask your hobby shop what he/she has and buy that knowing you will most likely be able to get help. I use MRC prod for that reason only. PS, I'm 45, is that old fart enough? FRED