A question for "Old Timers"

[Anonymous]

With the advancement of DCC, changes happen. The new Bachmann system is very inexpensive, and I think will make a good entry level system. $78 gets you the system with a decoder equipped loco. That is sooooooo inexpensive, I can't imagine NOT trying DCC. Fot that price, if you aren't happy, you aren't out much at all.
Like a lot of others, I have many other priorities, so I don't have the unlimited model rr budget. My computer is a Pentium III 750, and I have a 36" regular, plain, ordinary? non-hi-def tv. These both work well, do their jobs, and are fine for ME. I don't need to impress someone else. The rewards of the high dollar, high tech, latest and greatest aren't worth the cost, to me. For example, hi def tv costs a fortune to buy, programming is limited, and programming costs more than regular tv. I don't see much of a difference in picture quality (at least not enough to justify the extreme expense) to warrant a change, for ME. DCC, on the other hand, is becoming more and more economical to buy. I am in the process of building my first large layout, so I will try DCC.
The only thing I can say to others is, do what makes YOU happy. Don't worry about what others think. You are in the hobby for you, not for everyone else.
Tim

[BRAKIE]

Don,There is no need for the cry of " Somebody gimme a push".Why should there be when we use walk around throttles? Your club's CTC board sounds like ours..We are also like real dispatchers we need to plan meets,throw switches and commutate with all 3 yardmasters plus both passenger terminal operators..
We even have a bottle neck at West Dayton where the Newark Sub joins the main line.This makes a very interesting night.

[johncolley]

Hello, I'm 66, so I guess I qualify. I have had several layouts and some club modules that were all analog. I am very fortunate to have a friend that is allowing me to help him work up operations, switcher jobs, etc. His 3 level layout is all DCC and I love it. Consisting, helpers, and running several trains and switcher jobs at the same time is fantastic. I am biased and my new project is all DCC for sure. I love NCE's Radio Pro-Cab and that's the way I will be going.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: the train is push back into the block it occupied before it preceded past the red block

SOUNDS like the CTC boys power to the blocks. Instead of "Who's got my train" it's "will someone gimme a push".

Our club has block occupancy indicators and dispatchers, who like real dispatchers throw switches, and give instructions, however if a cab operator overshoots his gap into the next occupied block, he loses control. There is no auto-stop - unless it's a short circuit. This is eliminated with DCC

I think more clubs operate this way.

[BRAKIE]

As far as that old cry "Who's got my train?" I can truthfully say we never hear that cry at the club I am a member of in the 16 years I been there..Reason? We have CTC block control with block signals on a signal track main with passing sidings.Should a inattentive main line engineer overshoot a red block his train will stop.[:D] You see the if the block ahead is occupied or set for the opposite direction then the CTC board will not allow movement into that block by a unassigned throttle.So there is NO train stealing.
Please don't ask how it works...We have 2 members are electricians and one that is a electrical contractor that did all of the electrical wizardry.As a dispatcher I do know I need to reset the block that the offending train is in to restore power to that block after the train is push back into the block it occupied before it preceded past the red block..
Now as far as more then one switch crew in the yard this we do on a routine bases at the Cincinnati yard.This yard has a hump crew and a puller crew..
Now our yardmasters does not park the inbound road units in the yard..The hostler can pick up the inbound engines from the train by using a rotary switch and by flipping a toggle switch to "INBOUND TRACKS" and move them into the engine terminal area.He/she can also add the locomotives to outbound trains by the same method except flipping a toggle switch to "OUTBOUND TRACKS".After the hostler removes the motive power then the Yardmaster is free to pickup and classify the inbound train.This also applies to the passenger terminal..The DS controls the power to the tracks when there is a inbound or outbound train..So its not uncommon to see a outbound train leaving as a inbound train is arriving.[:D]

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

... Attributes of DCC.

It allows a yardmaster to park engines anywhere there is room, not just where the block breaks are.
It allows helpers to be independantly controlled, and they can be added or removed on the fly.
It allows locos of completely different running speeds to be run together.
It allows for realistic lighting effects for headlights, etc.
It allows for total flexibility for yard work, letting mulitple crews work around each other without having to worry about who has what block.
And, it makes the refrain of "Who's got my train!?!?" rarely heard at the club these days, unlike back then. [:D]
... I would not go back to DC, except for really simple "one man" operations.
Paul A. Cutler III

I think Paul has very succinctly laid out advantages that overide costs of DCC - especially for clubs - with multiple Cabs, Operators, Engine mixes, and parking engines on the same track. Unfortunately not all clubs use DCC and the cry of "who's got my train!?" is all too familiar - like on every operating session at our club.

Unfortunately club's when built use a technology voted on by the membership, that becomes somewhat resistant to change. Improvement, yes!... (change no). Until a forced move requires a new layout.

I am not against DCC - quite the opposite. I have 3 engines to run on (someone elses) DCC layout. (How else can I learn?). I run Analog at home because of the investment I have in engines and turnouts, and I am familiar enough with the basics of electricity, to have satisfactory operation using blocks and X blocks... Even with two cabs I'm generally the sole operator. If I ever build my Steam engine fascility, I'll use 3 throttles.

My question was: Are newbies buying DCC for the bells and whistles or to avoid dealing with basic electricity? To me, DCC with Athearn Blue Box, Atlas 4 X 8's seems strange. Call me old fashioned.

[BRAKIE]

Well,After using DCC on my old home layout I found the only thing I did not like about DCC is the hidden costs..However....I am currently building a N scale 11' 6" x 2 ' Industrial switching layout..I will be putting my DCC away along with my 6 DCC/Sound equipped locos and will bring out my trusty old MRC CM20..[:0]
Here are the reasons.
1.I will be running one (1) locomotive at a time and feel I don't need DCC for this simple operation.
2.Non of my Atlas locomotives is DCC equipped and in order for me to install a DCC decoder I would need to mill the frames and I feel that since I will be running one engine it is not worth the hassle.[:0]
Note: Even if I MU two (2) units I still would not have a need for DCC .[:D]
Now,IF my layout was much larger then of course I would mill the frames and use DCC.[:D]

[ClinchValleySD40]

Try it, I did. You'll be amazed at the difference. Warning - once you do try you'll never go back it is that good.

[Paul3]

I don't know about "old", but I've been in this hobby since birth. This is what happens when a) your father is a model railroader and b) your grandfather made wooden toy trains for his only grandson.

I'm 29 these days, but I've been a regular member of my club for 11 years, and for the first 5 (plus the 3 years I was a junior member), we still had our ca. 1953 block control layout to operate on. Since then, we have moved into a new 50' x 200' building and have gone to DCC.

Initially, I was against it. I liked what we had, and I was very leery of the possibility of obsolete decoders and controllers, etc. My concerns were addressed by the fact that DCC is based on an NMRA Standard, and that would make wholesale abandonment of the format (meaning that you'd have to replace all the decoders, etc.) unlikely. And if worse came to worse and the company of our choice did go under, there would be at least 3 or more other DCC manufacturers to fall back on, which at worst would require buying a new "brain" and controllers but would leave the loco installations intact.

The cost was also a concern. Our club had over 1000 engines registered among the membership, and conversion cost would have to be picked up by the individual members. Fortunately, this would be a option, rather than a requirement, but still the cost was daunting.

But then the Electrical Committee started to add up what it would cost to build all new block control cabs (the average cab at our old layout was 50 blocks) for a large new layout. At $6 a toggle it started to add up quickly. Add into that the long stretches of wire from the cabs to the blocks, and that ate into the bank account by quite a bit, too. In short, DCC wasn't all that different in price to the club itself, while the members had the option of buying decoders or not.

Finally, the next concern was operating safety. In block control, trains are automatically protected from head-ons by the differing polarity in the rails. With DCC, head-ons are a distinct possibility. To address that, we decided to install a signal system, and later have learned that with bi-directional communication, trains that pass a red signal can be stopped automatically.

Then, we started to get into the attributes of DCC.

It allows a yardmaster to park engines anywhere there is room, not just where the block breaks are.

It allows helpers to be independantly controlled, and they can be added or removed on the fly.

It allows locos of completely different running speeds to be run together.

It allows for realistic lighting effects for headlights, etc.

It allows for total flexibility for yard work, letting mulitple crews work around each other without having to worry about who has what block.

And, it makes the refrain of "Who's got my train!?!?" rarely heard at the club these days, unlike back then. [:D]

All in all, I like DCC so much that I bought the Digitrax Zephyr system for my home layout. In about a week, I'll be adding radio throttles. I would not go back to DC, except for really simple "one man" operations.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[jrbernier]

I have been in the hobby since about 1962(scale modeling). I am 54 and this is my 5th layout(4 in my parents home). The current layout was started in 1987 before DCC.
DCC makes one change his priorities in the hobby. I started using DCC around 1994(when decoders were about $60 each). At the time I had a 'fleet' of Athearn GP9 and SD7 engines, and a few others. The Athearns were all well detailed, painted, and had N/S wheels. A lot of decoder conversion went into those engines. Most of my freight cars were of the Athearn/MDC/Accurail kits that were custom painted/decaled/weathered.
Now I have replaced them all with P2K SD7's and GP9's - all with under $20 decoders. Most of my freight cars also got upgraded or replaced with better/more accurate cars. The layout has 46 cab control blocks, 2000 feet of wire, etc... I am now considering tearing it down and building a new layout with code 83 after some room upgrades.
DCC has freed up my time:
o - I work on the layout and operate it due to the 'ease' DCC offers.
o - I have about 16 DCC engines - what I need to operate the railroad.
o - The 3 'space hog' control panels that were recessed into the facia were
replaced by work areas for the 'bill' boxes . There is just a small long narrow panel
for the switch motor controls for my staging tracks.

Now lets compare cost:
DC --- About $450 for wire, rotaries, terminal strips, etc. Then add 2 DC walk-around cab units($125 each) Total about $700
DCC -- $350 for a Digitrax Chief, $125 for wireless, and $350 for a pair of DT400R cabs. I also have a pair of DT100R cabs and a 'palm' throttle. I also have PM42($60) for power management. And about $100 for bus wiring to the 4 'power' districts. That is about $950 invested in DCC, but no decoders yet! Figure about $20-30 each for decoders. DCC is not cheap, but at least I will not spend 3 months in the winter pulling over 2000 feet of #18 wire though cable troughs!
For someone with a more modest layout, you can get a 'complete' Digitrax 'Zephyr' system for around $150, and use up to two of your old DC cabs as 'jump cabs' to run DCC trains. That is 3 thottles right now. The conversion of older engines is still an issue, but the new engines are much better and most folks are buying new engines that are DCC ready. Most of my non-DCC ready engines are older P2K, Atlas, Kato, a pair of Walthers SW-1's. Each is an evening project.
A post was made that you can run older non-DCC engines on 'address 0' - this is true, but you may see control issues with DCC engines running at the same time due to the 'zero stretching' done by this scheme.
DCC works for this 'old head' - and my son picked up all of this without any reading of manuals(he was 14 then). He feels that it is no different than video games, he just 'tries' it and goes from there. I think many of us never really got the hang of DC, were lost with PC's and feel that DCC technology has walked by us. My son got so good at this that for a number of years he went to the NMRA conventions and worked in the Digitrax booth - a 15 year old kid showing us older guys how to do it! I learned a lot from him, and now admit it to him(he is 20 now).
DCC is not for everyone, but rejecting it because you do not 'understand' it is really selling one's self short. Try it on several layouts in you area, and see if it 'works' for you - then make your decision.

Jim Bernier

[Eriediamond]

I'm an old geezer (timer) and to answer or give an opinion on DCC is that I'm not against it, however I will not have it on my home layout, or should I say I'm not planning on it. I will convert a couple of my locos to DCC for the purpose of being able to run them on our club layout if we decide to go with DCC there. For me, DC works just fine and I still enjoy throwing toggle switches and all that. From what I've learned about DCC on this forum and from friends that do have DCC, I think it is great and would not say anything against it. I enjoy getting out in the fields on an old John Deere B or Farmall H, but that doesn't mean I'm against the new tractors with their air conditioned cabs and automatic transmissions and power steering. It's all a matter of choice and what you want out of your railroad and DCC does give you more flexability and easier operating. Thanks, Ken

[Anonymous]

Hey plane_crazy, I think you hit the nail right on the head. I was all DC before but I am now phasing in DCC all the way. I never realy knew about DCC until I asked about which was the best track to use for my rebuilding & expantion of my layout. If I remember right it was AntonioFP45 & others that brought this subject up to me. There are so many advantages as far as handling & operating the layout goes. I've done alot of questioning at shows & got a hands on demonstration of this new type of setup. I'm not an old timer but I'm old enough to know better..............."HAPPY RAILS" PS; Change is hard, & there are just some things that I would never change about my layout. I'm still going with DCC though.

[Anonymous]

I'm not an old timer, I'm a newbie who does not even have a layout yet, but I'm almost 100% certain to go with DCC. It seems to me that many "old timers" posting here have a built in bias against things 'different from how it's always been done". While the idea of converting what you already have may not make sense for any number of reasons, to deride others for taking at look at new technology strikes me as a bit arrogant.

That being said, I'm concerned that many of these same old timers with a bias for DC (or is it against DCC?) are proprietors of many of the LHS specializing in trains. While I got a little flamed for earlier asking about on-line hobby shops, some of the comments were to the effect "find a local hobby shop where you can get your questions answered". Well so far, the two closest shops to me are both run by very nice, very helpful guys who love model railroading and who are DC people; one doesn't even carry DCC, the other one, only one kind, neither runs it or wants to. While I understand their views of what works for them and how they've built a big setup based on DC, it seems to me that almost every new person to his hobby should at least consider DCC.

I read another thread earlier about the decline of MRR and the lack of "younger" people in the hobby, it seems to me the future of MRR is around things like DCC.

Oh well just one persons uninformed opinion, for the price you paid for it, you got your money's worth :-)

[Anonymous]

At 65 and started in the hobby 54 years ago when my dad bought me a Mantua shifter. (Everyone started out with a shifter.) I guess I qualify as an old fart. My third layout had "route cab control" with fifteen blocks, my fourth (current) is DCC and I wouldn't go back. It's so much easier to maintain and wire. Some of my old brass engines will probably never see a decoder but we do have zero stretching so they can run on the layout.

When I thought about DCC, I was also thinking about the cost and dragging my feet, but I don't run every loco every day. I started out by putting a harness in the locos and moving the decoder around to whatever I wanted to run. Then along came that dang company called SOUNDTRAXX, I currently have about 20 or 25 locos sounded. I've moved from 6 and 8 wheel drivers now to enclude early diesel so now all of the "B" units are sounded but I do this as I buy them. My 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's do not have decoders in them but they still run.

My first plastic locomotive was a Proto 2-8-8-2 and it was so simple to sound that I went out and purchased a second one.

When a good friend no longer wanted his SD75M, I ended up with it and that is what I run at the shows. It didn't cost that much to put sound in it.

New layout builders need to look at what is coming out in the marketplace. Five years ago you couldn't get a DCC loco and look at what's available now. My new 4-8-4 has DCC and sound and it came that way.

In answer to your question: I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO DC.

Have a good day
Bob

[Don Gibson]

OLD TIMER'S REPLY: You asked ...

It used to be COMMAND CONTROL was enjoyed by the advanced modelers
- and it was expensive.
Today DCC (Digital Command Control) seems to be adopted by the 'Newbie'
- and it's still expensive.

Because it's 'Digital'? or One doesn't have to learn basic about Electricity? [+ / - ].

One MAJOR advantage to DCC is unlimited additions of cabs.
One MAJOR advantage to DCC is using wireless throttles.

I wonder how many DCC users are using any of the above?

I have Wireless throttles, Buss wiring, onboard sound , 3 cabs - and I'm Analog .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

Coalfired comments about the DeSoto battery reminds me of visiting the Amish neighbors layout, they use 1/4" scale locos powered by sticks and water because they don't use electric. Ever see how they get on the internet? http://www.mystique.net/amish.html has one of their secret laptops. I have a 46 Desoto that I built into a street rod, see it at http://www2.mo-net.com/~fmiller/fred.html ...FRED

Ahh Ha Ha Ha, That's a good one about the Amish laptop! My wife thought that I was dying because I laughed so hard that I couldn't breath.

[Anonymous]

I have been in the hobby since I was a kid. I have built seven layouts in the past 48 years. Two years ago, I switched to DCC. I would never consider going back. I have never had a much fun with a layout as I do now. I was very worried about the switch, but I found that it was no big deal. It gave me an opportunity to learn many new aspects of the hobby.

[dave9999]

I posted this topic way back in October of last year. I thought I would dig it up and see if any
"new" old timers had anything to add. Dave

[ClinchValleySD40]

Absolutely love DCC. Would never consider going back to DC. Wiring a layout alone makes it worthwhile. And yes it is a very simple system to get up and running.
If you've never tried it, give yourself a treat. You won't look back.

[brothaslide]

I've moved over to DCC. I like high tech stuff so it is a good fit for me. Although, the added cost can be a burden.

[dave9999]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robmik

I would never consider DCC for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the evangelical fervor with which so many DCC advocates feel they need to attempt to "convert" us with.

I might worry that the whole concept is just a rapidly self-obsolescing means to suck money out of hobbyists.
Good luck
Mike

I started this topic to get an idea of the popularity of DCC. Now I'm no dummy, but I cant imagine anyone being so passionately opposed to the concept. Is there that many stubborn old timers out there? I am not saying you should convert to DCC or even read a book about it, but to be so hard headed as to think that someone feeling strongly about DCC is trying convert you is beyond me.If you dont like DCC dont use it. As for DCC being "self-obsolescing" ,well that's
just ridiculous. I can see it improving, but not becoming obsolete. Now DC on the other hand,
who knows? Dave

[Anonymous]

I've been doing this for 25 years.

I'm building a new layout now and you can bet I'll use DCC.

I found funny the comment that it will soon go away. Given that today's systems are designed with an architecture to allow them to adapt, I doubt that's the case. Also, I'd be real surprised to see DCC disappear to be replaced with...what?....DC again?

DCC is what we always wanted. Now that it is here you will, of course have your group of naysayers--they also said "Get a horse," and "Man wasn't meant to fly," and such.

But an actual observation of the marketplace shows DCC isn't a fad and it's not likely to go away.

[Anonymous]

I have been in the hobby for 40 years., and started just like every one else with a controll pannel an block controll. when walk around controll came about i tried this .
with the advent of dcc i have converted over 55 locosaand 750 feet to dcc i presantly have 5 districts all controlled by north coast dcc and i would recomend that thoes of you getting stated take a long look at all of the differant brands available. i have had many people come and operate using my system and they all say it is much more user friendly than other products on the market .i take no credit for any mispelled words .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

I can't fathom why you would think that people's enthusiasm for a new product is anything like trying to convert your religion....FRED

[CNJ831]

I'm an old-timer and I've gotta agree totally with Mike here. I, too, grow tired of having DCC fanatics jumping into topics/questions that do not in any way whatever involve DCC, only to hear their preaching that their's is the only true path to follow and that DCC cures all layout problems. I'd like to remind them that currently the hobby is better than 75% DC and I am highly doubtful DCC will ever reach a 50% share before the whole thing becomes history. And, as Mike points out, DCC is clearly evolving rapidly and current systems are likely to be quickly outmoded and become incompatible with later advances, while DC has remained essentially unchanged for decades...just the way I like it!

Personally, I have never found DC block control wiring difficult, nor have I found it a problem occasionally throwing a toggle or two as my train proceeds around the layout. DC allows my trains to do everything I desire them to do and the experiences I've had with other people's DCC layouts (the very few that are around out my way) left me quite unimpressed.

JB

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robmik

I'm an old timer I guess, being in H0 since 1956, when I was 13.
I would never consider DCC for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the evangelical fervor with which so many DCC advocates feel they need to attempt to "convert" us with.
I never changed religions based on anyone telling me why I should, either.[:D]

I can't fathom why you would think that people's enthusiasm for a new product is anything like trying to convert your religion? It's very rare when any new product is developed that actually creates followers who go out of their way to reccomend it to others. Hey, try the new McDonalds Big Deluxe, if you eat one you'll never again eat an old fashion Big Mac!!! [}:)] If you really belived that advances in technology existed to only "suck money out of hobbyists" then why tell do you own a computer that is in it's 11th or 12th generation and is obsolete a year before it's produced? Can it be WinTel suckered you? Or is it you found you can still use the older units even if they are not state of the art what's being sold next year? I'm happy for any new technology to make my life easier. If you want to hear some real preaching listen to an Amish man tell us we are all wrong for having any technology and freetime to play and that we are all going to Hell...You, me, all the "english"... AMEN The bottom line, if it wasn't any good it wouldn't have followers. Since it does maybe there is some good in it. FRED

[Anonymous]

I'm an old timer I guess, being in H0 since 1956, when I was 13.
I would never consider DCC for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the evangelical fervor with which so many DCC advocates feel they need to attempt to "convert" us with.
I never changed religions based on anyone telling me why I should, either.[:D]

Seriously though, I don't need or want DCC, because my layout runs to my own satisfaction on block-control DC.
The block control wiring was EASY, despite what many DCC advocates incorrectly preach.[V]
I don't anticipate changing my expectations for the layout, either. When I have to change, it will be to a smaller layout, or some modules, and I would be running less trains, not more.
All being said, if I were young, and just starting out, I would probably go with equipment that could readily be converted to DCC....but after seeing that article on p.96 of the Dec 2003 MR, "Third Generation DCC " I might worry that the whole concept is just a rapidly self-obsolescing means to suck money out of hobbyists.
Good luck
Mike

[eastcoast]

I have been in model trains since 1986 and started in DC, only to stay in DC.
The changes I made were to improve on my DC power. I am currently running
MRC Tech II 2500 units and will probably add 1 Tech IV . Most of my motive power can not handle DCC. And those that can are excellent with what I have now.

[sully57]

Hi. I guess I am somewhat of an old timer at 54. Haven't touched the hobby since I was a kid. Now I have just built a 5x9 table in room in basement. Very excited to get back into this. I have nothing for equipment, and am starting (albeit slowly) from scratch. However, I too am faced with the nagging ques of DCC or not DCC. I chose the latter - for now. I did this mainly to keep my costs (& marriage) in check. Seriously though - I have a 'regular' hobby shop now for this, and he has lots of model rr accessories/equip etc, but does not carry ANY DCC equipment. He told me he won't ! I found this awfully peculiar. He wanted me to do the cab thing, which I don't yet fully understand. And I may do cab, in time. But does anyone else out there agree, that this day in age, a shop does not delve into DCC, is a tad unusual?

The guy at the shop told me that the locos I was looking at ($100 - $200 range), would probably have an addt'l $100 on top of that to have a decoder inside. True?? And perhaps, he said, an additional $50 - $60 bucks if I just wanted to purchase one that was "DCC-friendly" (no decoder, but outfitted to easily take one I guess). Anyway, he scared me away from DCC for now. I suspect down the road that will change, once I get my bearings on all of this.

Finally - it seems logical to me that nowadays, any new locos being built would be at least "DCC-friendly". Is this an erroneous assumption on my part? Thank you!