Yards - A Resource Blackhole?

[RRTrainman]

Nope!!! I kept it simple.

[Anonymous]

There was a yard created and a article written in this year's MR some months ago that is like.. a perfect yard. The only issues to be determined is the length (Based on average trains departing) and how many storage tracks and where to put the main/engine areas.

For example if Falls Valley dispatched a train from Last Chance Mine to the yard I can expect at least 10 coal cars on that turn inbound. That in addition to an engine and caboose will make a rather long model train that will need a good arrival track to accomodate it when it arrives.

Of those ten coal cars I know 2 will go to the coal tower at the yard, 4 to Cold Harbor Port and 3 to Falls Valley and 3 for interchange to the rest of the world. That means the yard will need one storage track for each area and one track to hold "Throughs" or trains going off to the outside world.

So I already am up to three yard storage tracks. When these fill up I can call a crew and send a train out. I already know that Falls Valley will be the biggest user of cars so it will get the longest track. LastChance Mine will probably get it's own storage track to collect empties going to the mine but am not sure yet.

That Coal Train schedule is then automatically determined on how soon the next coal empties return which should occur on the "Next Ops session"

If a train showed up toting a large number of cars I might have to use two arrivals to stuff it all in before sorting it. Just hope to get it sorted and cleared before the next one arrives =)

With that in mind (Perfect or flawed -your choice) I see the yard as a "Organizer" for the railroad instead of a resource black hole.  

Considering that I am running 5 feet of workbench track and planning construction I think that I might be ahead of the game of wondering what to do and how to do it.

[Anonymous]

Yards a black hole? No way! I think they're just about the most interesting part of the whole railroad. Also, some of you are saying how you don't have room for a yard on your layout. Not true. If you have room for even 2 tracks that are, say, each 3' long, you can have a very basic yard. My yard is 6 double-ended tracks ranging from about 3' to 9' long. Yards don't have to be huge. It depends on the traffic flow. Many shortlines get by with smaller yards (less thank 10 tracks)

[twcenterprises]

The minimalist approach will be what I do as well.  For starters, I have a 6'x13' area to work with, so not much room in HO scale.  I will be modeling what used to be a shortline, taken over by Southern Railway, in 1957.  This will also have a secondary branchline which goes out to serve a mining outfit.  As such, these branchlines usually had minimal yards, I believe in my case the "yard" was essentially 3 tracks next to the depot, one of which was the "main", the second served as the passing track, and the 3rd served any and all other purposes.  It could have been a "bad order" storage track, an empties/loads holding track (especially during harvest season), a team track, or whatever.  I haven't found any old historical resources for the mines, but I would think the mine would need no more than 2 tracks, with a runaround built in somewhere. 

And, just for good measure on the minimalist approach, as a general rule, all railroads use this approach.  That is to say, they try to use as little as possible (trackwise, amount of rolling stock, locomotives, etc) to get the job done.  Those of us who have giant multi-track yards, while having less than a 2 scale mile main line, are kind of going overkill on the yards.  Now, don't anybody take that the wrong way, having a large yard is just fine, even if you just have the yard which runs off to staging on both ends.  If that's your thing, and you design it to work that way so you can just switch cars all day long, more power to you.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas on how to use the 6x13 space I have, I'll post a ? about this over on the layout design forum.

Brad

[NS2591]

I was planning a yard, but when I looked at trying to get all the trackwork into the space I wanted it wouldn't work, It looked good on Paper(So does everything) but on the plywood. So instead I'm going to have 3 tracks, a track to store loaded Coal hoppers waiting more cars from the mine(s), and an Arival/Departure tracks that will be used when the layout is operated for staging trains.

[Eriediamond]

My future N scale layout will have no yard for the following reasons. My train room is a small spare bedroom that treasury and realestate vice president allocated to me and I want to model the rural dairy farm country and it's related industries and facilities that the Erie served back in the 40's-50's. Also, my main interest is to watch trains run through the hills and valleys of the western NY farm country I was raised in, with just enough industries to make swithing operations interesting when I want to. I don't have. nor intend to have hundreds of cars and engines that need storing. The nearest thing to a yard will be a steam engine (of coarse) sevicing facility with a wye for turning locos. The lack of realestate is also the reason for N scale. Lastly, this RR is a one-man operation, not intended for group operations. I have an old large desk that serves as a work bench with a test track and one drawer is assigned as train storage, which I guess would be my "yard" and is a "black hole" when said drawer is closed. Ken

[BRAKIE]

dragenrider,One of the many things I like about short lines is the "minimalist" approach some short lines use to include a 2-3 track yard,a local fuel dealer for locomotive refueling,sanding locomotive by hand using bags of sand and a backhoe-the bags of sand is placed in the bucket and then raised to the sand hatch- to using a old station as a combination office and crew room yup minimalist at its best.

[WSOR 3801]

Aaaarrrgggh! The whole purpose of a yard is to sort cars, make up trains, and move 'em out! If you are taking three hours and not departing a train, the hoboes will have apartments! Happy railroading! LOL jc5729

I might as wells start building those apartments.

Sometimes the train has NO place to DEPART TO! Except on paper.

The FRA man could've showed up.  Could be snowing.  The train still needs inspection by the carmen, when it comes in, and again before it leaves.

[Anonymous]

Aaaarrrgggh! The whole purpose of a yard is to sort cars, make up trains, and move 'em out! If you are taking three hours and not departing a train, the hoboes will have apartments! Happy railroading! LOL jc5729

I might as wells start building those apartments.

Sometimes the train has NO place to DEPART TO! Except on paper.

[dragenrider]

I think the minimalist approach works for my shortline RR.  A yard is necessary, but doesn't have to take up that much real estate.  It can serve multiple functions, too.

This is the yard just east of the mopac interchange.  It's called Hawksbill Station.  (any sci-fi reader know that one?)  Starting from the bottom of the picture and working up you can see a small RIP track, two engine mx tracks, and a MOW/caboose track.  The three double ended tracks serve as a shuffle track, the main line and the interchange track for the nearby junction. 

[BRAKIE]

TZ,Any of the tracks you mention could be used as a yard..Sadly the B&ML cease operations on June 9,2005.

The L&W is far from being a "Petticoat Jct" type of short line..While only 2 miles long it owns several hundred cars which seldom sees home rails.

 

Nuh uh. The B&ML is back in business running excursions from Unity to Burnham Jct.. http://www.belfastrailroad.com/docs/schedule.pdf

Andre

 

Cool! But,a excursion line does not make a short line..So as a freight carrying short line the B&ML is no more.

[tomikawaTT]

So,show me a layout without a working yard and I will show you a un-prototypical layout-stagging yards don't count simply because they are "off layout" destination points.

Them are purty strong words, pardner!  I could point out that there is a lot of railroad BETWEEN yards - including all kinds of industries!  If a modeler with a well-organized list of givens and druthers wants a model railroad that emphasizes open-country running and small-town switching, that is his decision.  The layout he builds may be very prototypical indeed (especially if he has decided to reproduce every significant structure in a couple of prototypically accurate towns.)

Staging for more than one train IS a yard, especially if it's a fiddle yard.  If I had decided to go the "no yards" route, I would still operate the staging at both ends of my visibly-modeled main line in the same manner - turning or changing waybills, emptying coal loads at the "down" end and swapping other open-top loads as the waybills require.  The only thing I would lose by shifting town names a few notches would be engine changes, limited passenger train stops and most of my freight switching (a lot more cars would simply run through.)  I would still be operating in prototype fashion, to the same timetable, with the same passenger consists and the same number and length freight trains.

Facts are, however; and for me the fact is that operating my engine change subdivision point, with its small classification yard and its busy interchange connections, is a BIG part of my fun.  I'm not about to re-designate stations and lose that.  (not to mention that it would make 35-50% of my motive power unuseable.

Chuck  (whose roster is 50% coal burning, 35% juice burning and 15% diesel burning)

[Texas Zepher]

The L&W is far from being a "Petticoat Jct" type of short line..While only 2 miles long it owns several hundred cars which seldom sees home rails.

I agree.  Didin't I even point that out in my prior post as a notible exception?   It is only 2 miles long today, but investigate it back into the 1950's, or even better yet back 100 years.  I've helped two people put together some very different layouts of it. I really like the funny curved industry track right behind main street.  But actually I was refering to the Wadley Southern as an example of Petticoat Junciton type operation.  One ten wheeler and one combine car running back and forth.

[NeO6874]

quote Texas Zepher dehusman said "A handy way of looking at it is the concept that a yard is a verb. Yards are places where cars move from one train to the other" That is an intersting definition. But then isn't every interchange and industrial track a yard?  One train leaves the car at a grain elevator and a different one picks it up. =================== The difference is that at an industry or interchange the car changes destination or condition or staus or control. From load to empty, from empty to load, from going to industry A to going to industry B, from railroad A to railroad B. In a switching yard the car doesn't normal change destinations or status. The switching process doesn't change it from a load to an empty or vice versa, or which railroad has control. It changes the car from one train to another. Dave H. PS: The quote feature appears to be broke in IE7

a lot of things are probably broken in IE7... FIREFOX FOR ALL!

(and to keep this post somewhat on topic)

I would consider an interchange a yard as well. I mean, a consist comes in, gets broken down, new consists get built and these new consists get sent to other destinations - regardless of the fact the rails/motive power are owned by other rail companies....

[andrechapelon]

TZ,Any of the tracks you mention could be used as a yard..Sadly the B&ML cease operations on June 9,2005.

The L&W is far from being a "Petticoat Jct" type of short line..While only 2 miles long it owns several hundred cars which seldom sees home rails.

 

Nuh uh. The B&ML is back in business running excursions from Unity to Burnham Jct.. http://www.belfastrailroad.com/docs/schedule.pdf

Andre

 

[dehusman]

quote Texas Zepher
dehusman said "A handy way of looking at it is the concept that a yard is a verb. Yards are places where cars move from one train to the other"

That is an intersting definition. But then isn't every interchange and industrial track a yard?  One train leaves the car at a grain elevator and a different one picks it up. ===================
The difference is that at an industry or interchange the car changes destination or condition or staus or control. From load to empty, from empty to load, from going to industry A to going to industry B, from railroad A to railroad B.
In a switching yard the car doesn't normal change destinations or status. The switching process doesn't change it from a load to an empty or vice versa, or which railroad has control. It changes the car from one train to another.

Dave H.

PS: The quote feature appears to be broke in IE7

[BRAKIE]

TZ,Any of the tracks you mention could be used as a yard..Sadly the B&ML cease operations on June 9,2005.

The L&W is far from being a "Petticoat Jct" type of short line..While only 2 miles long it owns several hundred cars which seldom sees home rails.

[dehusman]

The question is, does the average modeler handle a half dozen cars with one locomotive a day or a week? Or does the average modeler switch cars at about 300-400% or the prototypical rate to generate "operation"?

There are lots of operations where having a yard may not make sense. There are situations and track plans you could come up with to eliminate any number of things (easiest example is engine facilities). I would say that if you get more than two or three trains originating on the visible portion of your layout, then having a yard becomes a real benefit.

Dave H.

[Texas Zepher]

Being a big fan of short lines I can assure you ALL short lines have yards of some type even if its no more then 2 tracks including the main ON BOTH ENDS of their line..

OK, show me where the yards are on the short lines Lousiville & Wadley, Wadley Southern (Petticoat Junction like), or Belfast & Moosehead Lake.   When examining the actual track of the B&ML the closest thing I can find to a yard is the interchange with the Maine Central (At Burnham Junction), and in that case the track happens to belong to the Maine Central so if I were modeling this it would be the staging and by your own definition doesn't count.  At Belfast the few tracks that look like they are a "yard" are the mail track, 2 passenger terminal tracks, the freight station track, a scale track, and the warf track - no yard.   All the other pictures or track diagrams I've found of their "yards" in the other towns are just passing tracks.  http://www.cprr.org/Museum/BMLRR/ 

Exactly the same scenario for the L&W.  The closest thing to a "yard" in Lousiville is the run around track just off the turn table (later the wye).

These railroads don't have enough traffic to have to sort cars. Most of them don't have any of their own fleet and just use interchange cars. All the cars from the interchange only have one destination, and as such there are no surplus cars, the empties are in the next train back to the connecting railroad.   A notible exception is the Lousiville & Wadley that has a fleet (and makes all of their money from cars in interchange), but their cars almost never get to their home track.  I found one reference where they were clearing the brush from the "yard" (the interchange track that branches off the connecting line) to make room for a couple.

Then there is the railroad made from the former AT&SF branch through Timken Kansas.  The railroad's main terminal is in Ellis.  They have no yard.  The cars sit behind the locomotive right in front of the station.  When the train is needed the push the train to the desination to fill up the cars.  There is a passing track in Bazine so I suppose they could run around there.

All I am saying is that there are many instances where a real railroad has no "yard", ergo a model railroad of it would not prototypically have a "yard".  But as the prior poster just pointed out it depends entirely on what one is classifying as a yard.  If someone wants the single track in front of a station to be called a yard then that is OK, it just makes having conversations difficult.  I am guessing we are actually agreeing in concept but disagreeing on what classifies as a "yard".  To that question there is no resolution (sort of like the  way car vs. caboose debate). 

[BRAKIE]

A handy way of looking at it is the concept that "a yard is a verb". Yards are places where cars move from one train to the other.

That is an intersting definition. But then isn't every interchange and industrial track a yard?  One train leaves the car at a grain elevator and a different one picks it up.

 

No..Usually elevators are switch by the same local the next day or 2 days later depending on the load out rate...Of course the exception being large elevators that loads unit trains such as ADM,CARGILL etc.

[Texas Zepher]

A handy way of looking at it is the concept that "a yard is a verb". Yards are places where cars move from one train to the other.

That is an intersting definition. But then isn't every interchange and industrial track a yard?  One train leaves the car at a grain elevator and a different one picks it up.

[dehusman]

A handy way of looking at it is the concept that "a yard is a verb".

Yards are places where cars move from one train to the other.

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

I simply WILL NOT design a "YARDLESS" layout.Why? Real railroads needs yards and so do we IF we are to operate our layout versus running endless loops.

So what about real railroads that don't have yards?  Take a look at the track layout of many shortlines and industrial railroads.  Even look at the shortline photos called "yards", and it will be noticed that they are not yards at all but several side by side industrial or station tracks at the end of the line or at best an interchange track or two.  If someone is modeling such a railroad then they aren't operating their layout?   What about those who model a prototypical branch that has no yard, should they add one even though it would be un-prototypical?   I find this view to be a bit limiting on what prototypical things could be modeled.

I am in the opposite camp.  I believe most model railroads are overyarded, but as someone else (jrbernier?) has pointed out this is probably due to the fact that what is being called a yard isn't really a working yard but more and area just for storage or staging.   I also contend that if a working yard is well designed it will have all trailing point switching and the most complex move will be running the road locomotive around the train.   Even if one simulates things like caboose servicing, all the moves end up being shuffling forward and back (hence the word drill).  The challenge in operating a well designed yard is keeping the departing trains on schedule (and hence the yard empty), not the switching problems. 

So yes, I think they are a resource (space & time) black hole.

 

Being a big fan of short lines I can assure you ALL short lines have yards of some type even if its no more then 2 tracks including the main ON BOTH ENDS of their line..Where do you think they hold the overflow cars? How about empties? How do they make their train up in working order by town and  industry order?

 

As far as branch lines that would depend on type and how far away from the nearest yard..Again,you need a place to hold empties and overflow cars.

So,show me a layout without a working yard and I will show you a un-prototypical layout-stagging yards don't count simply because they are "off layout" destination points.

[johncolley]

Aaaarrrgggh! The whole purpose of a yard is to sort cars, make up trains, and move 'em out! If you are taking three hours and not departing a train, the hoboes will have apartments! Happy railroading! LOL jc5729

[Jetrock]

A lot depends on your emphasis. If you're the sort who doesn't care for scenery and is perfectly happy running on bare plywood, then scenery and structures are the resource "black hole." Maybe your yard is bigger than mine (in fact, it probably is) but my yard was pretty darn easy to throw together. It's a four-track single-end yard with a runaround track, a RIP track and a short stub for storing cabeese. I laid track in one afternoon, ballasted in another afternoon, and spent a few hours adding a little scenery, mostly dirt, scrub grass and some tire tracks, plus a few small yard structures and lots of grime. All in all, my yard took about a week from track on bare wood to ballasted and scenicked and essentially complete. My industrial area took months to complete, as it included a lot of structures and scenery that took quite a bit of time. I don't consider them a "black hole" either because building structures is pretty much my favorite part of the hobby.

 

The yard gets used every time I operate the layout, so I guess I don't really see how a yard is a "black hole" for my own resources. If you're an advocate of just watching the trains run, and your yards are basically there to stage trains before watching them go round and round, then I suppose yards don't serve much purpose.

 

Much may depend on how much you like prototype yards. I'm one of those guys who will go stare at yard operations for as much time as I have, just watching cars being scooted back and forth, and when I'm on train trips I invariably stare out the window at every yard snapping photos and taking mental notes of cool details or things to model.

[Texas Zepher]

I simply WILL NOT design a "YARDLESS" layout.Why? Real railroads needs yards and so do we IF we are to operate our layout versus running endless loops.

So what about real railroads that don't have yards?  Take a look at the track layout of many shortlines and industrial railroads.  Even look at the shortline photos called "yards", and it will be noticed that they are not yards at all but several side by side industrial or station tracks at the end of the line or at best an interchange track or two.  If someone is modeling such a railroad then they aren't operating their layout?   What about those who model a prototypical branch that has no yard, should they add one even though it would be un-prototypical?   I find this view to be a bit limiting on what prototypical things could be modeled.

I am in the opposite camp.  I believe most model railroads are overyarded, but as someone else (jrbernier?) has pointed out this is probably due to the fact that what is being called a yard isn't really a working yard but more and area just for storage or staging.   I also contend that if a working yard is well designed it will have all trailing point switching and the most complex move will be running the road locomotive around the train.   Even if one simulates things like caboose servicing, all the moves end up being shuffling forward and back (hence the word drill).  The challenge in operating a well designed yard is keeping the departing trains on schedule (and hence the yard empty), not the switching problems. 

So yes, I think they are a resource (space & time) black hole.

[jrbernier]

  One of the big problems with model railroads is what we USE the yard for.  Most prototype yards are used to classify cars - Trains are arriving & departing.  Many model railroaders seem to use a yard as a personal storge device for their many freight cars.  My yard has 4 through tracks, holds maybe 60 cars maximum.  Most of the time the yard has only15-20 cars in it.  My 6 staging tracks usually hold about 60 cars, and the industries have maybe 10-12 cars spotted.  If you do the math, I have under 100 cars on the layout.  I have about 400 freight cars -only the ones that are needed for operation reside on the layout.  I have display cases in the family room(crew lounge??) that hold engines/cars that I thought were 'neat', but really have no use in the operation of the layout.

  A friend has 1/2 of his 'on stage' yard tied up with a coal train and intermodel train that he runs when he is too tired to operate.  When he operates, his 6 track yard is always plugged up - he want to add more storage tracks, but gets concerned about the cost of switches!

Jim

[Anonymous]

...After painting and ballasting about 2 feet of each track, I was crosseyed and stopped for the day.... 

Nick

PS - I believe the man who can invent a way to ballast quickly and easily (and I mean actually ballasting, not sectional-on-fake-ballast track) will quickly find himself quite comfortable financially. In my opinion, that's the biggest "better mousetrap" candidate in the hobby.

[reklein]

I think yards are a necessary part of railroading. I don't believe in hidden yards because watching the models is the fun. I think the worst wast of talent,time and trackage is the hidden helix. A much over rated tool for changing grade. There was a layout in one of the magazines which had a humongous Oval shaped helix in another room,and I thought what a waste of track and veiwing opportunies.