Movie train not right - among other things...

[TheK4Kid]

I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!.

Tracklayer

 Well Tony Bills who made the movie is a pilot, and several real pilots were also involved in it's making.
Take into account that there isn't always aircraft that exactly match time periods, details, etc, in airworthy of flying condition that they can use.
Very, very, very few "real" or even "replica" WW1 aircraft are available or in airworthy shape to be used for movies.
"Fly Boys" actually "premiered" at the annual Oshkosh Air Venture air show in Wisconsin before a crowd of ALL pilots.
Tony explained that he used what was available.
Costs of actually building exact replicas can be very expensive, then the airplanes have to be "certified" by the FAA.
That all takes time and lots of money, and MASSIVE HEADACHES  and HAIR PULLING  FRUSTRATION with govt bureaucracy!

 How do I know?
I am now 55 and have been flying since I was 18.

 Okay, now that I've said my two cents worth, if you'd like to see a "real" and "very authentic" flying movie with a beautiful "Southern Pacific" steam train in it, ( actually still shots) then get a copy of "One Six Right" at www.onesixright.com/
If you are a nostalgia buff and just happen to like airplanes also, especially vintage airplanes, this is an incredible movie-documentary!
There happens to be a funny "airplane vs. train " story in it!
I once flew out west with a friend of mine in his Stearman biplane, and we happened across a beautiful steam-passenger excursion train, dropped down and flew alongside awhile, ended up landing on a small side road, taxied up near the train, the engineers came over and we traded  rides!
The engineer happened to be a retired American Airlines captain.
But like us, he was also a train affaciando!

 TheK4Kid

 Working on the Pennsy

 

[gn goat]

To see Hollywood's influence on the general public, try Oliver Stone's movie, JFK. For many people that became the honest-to-god history of the assassination.

the goat

[Anonymous]

Dont forget about 14000 feet is about the limit for a human to breathe. My limit is about 12,000 before the thin air puts me to sleep. I-70 in Colorado reaches that altitude and it gets hard to gain air to breathe.

Engines lose performance with Height and needs technology not availible in WW1. After the 1930's many engines gained the technology needed to perform at high altitudes. Part of the aircombat problem of WW1 depended heavily on the location of the front line in association to a flyer's home base; taking into account the winds aloft that day. It was best to engage in battle just on your side of the line when possible to avoid capture if shot down or have a advantage when forced to land due to battle damage.

[Kurt_Laughlin]

My wife was getting POd at me for pointing out all the errors in the film...

[ericboone]

Another excellent movie with a big train snaffu was "Ray", the movie about the life of Ray Charles.  In a scene from the 40s or 50s, they drive under a railroad bridge and a double stack container train is on the bridge.  The top container was a 48 footer, so even if you knew nothing of trains, anyone into trucks should have known better as well.

[Tracklayer]

Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast.

Yeh, everyone wants accuracy. George Cosmatos who directed Tombstone (the one with Kurt Russell & Sam Elliott) hired several noted Tombstone-specific historians to ensure accuracy. But guess what....even they slipped up on a few things.

History is nothing more than someone's interpretation of past events. Even eyewitnesses viewing the same thing can come up with totally different stories as evidenced by numerous versions of the events of the Tombstone shootout between the Earps & Clantons. It happens today in courtrooms all over America, too.

Even the History Channel has a disclaimer relative to the accuracy of it's content....and they're supposed to be the Numero Uno guys in the field.

As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts.

Lastly, be thankful someone took the time to make Fly Boys. When's the last time we had the pleasure of a WWI flying flick and especially with such excellent graphics.

Perhaps if we allow ourselves to be more entertained by a movie, we'll be less inclined to be critical of it's shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong. I'm grateful someone took the time to make the movie, but wish they would have at least gotten it right with the trains and planes - and the Zepplin flying at night rather than the day!... I also thought about Tombstone (as you noted) earlier today when making an entry on this subject, but declined to mention it. It was historically correct up until about the middle of the movie, then Hollywood took over...

Tracklayer 

[andrechapelon]

I noticed the train thing too, plus about a jillion other things. Oh !,They did leave out shots with contrails in the background, HOWEVER, it was great entertainment nonetheless. Plenty enough action for me to suspend my disbelief for a couple hours.

I haven't seen "Flyboys" yet, but IIRC, it's a WWI movie. To the best of my knowledge, supercharged reciprocating aircraft engines didn't exist until about the 1930's (e.g. B-17, etc.). The maximum ceiling of a WWI aircraft would therefore have been under 15,000 feet. No WWI aircraft could have reached an altitude where contrails would have been formed.

Andre

[Anonymous]

Hehehe I loved it, especially the UP logo on the tender, wonder if Uncle Pete will sue them over that????  My wife was getting POd at me for pointing out all the errors in the film...

 

Simple reason WHY they did what they did......$$$$

 

The entire movie was filmed in England, all the French towns..were English, so were the Estates and the RRs, If you look carefully ..You can CLEARLY see the nameplate on the side of the loco, I wrote it down but lost it, its an English excursion engine, a 4-6-0, its the same engine as Hogswart I believe...and its the same train in both the USA and Paris scenes, like they couldnt have afforded to send a small crew to a small excursion line here in the US to shoot one scene???

 

Anyone also notice that the Zeppelin was flying WAY too low and in daylight? They would NEVER do that, not even with 100 escorts, a half-blind monkey at an AA battery could knock it out at that altitude. When they flew, they flew at night at at their service ceiling which was near 13,000 feet which was higher than the biplanes could fly,  plus in early 1916 they didnt HAVE incendiary bullets....The pilots would struggle to get their planes up the Zeppelins rarified altitudes and either drop small handheld bombs onto them or fire flareguns at them. All bullets would do was puncture the gasbags which the crews were trained at sealing fast. Incendiaries were introduced at the end of 1916.

 

But yeah, it was a fun "turn off your brain" movie...

http://www.burgess57.freeserve.co.uk

Here are a few steam engines that may have participated in the Hogwarts Film. I recalled one photo in particular but he has already removed it to save bandwidth.

The site is one of the best for British Modern and Steam occasionally he shoots video and stills of the older steamers with a touch of history on them.

I confess to not going to the movies much these days because we already have the satellite dish. That pretty much already paid for itself in saved movie expenses.

For me a movie works if you managed to forget your world outside for a short while enjoying the story. It definately does not work if I cannot help but be a nit-picker at either bad acting or terrible props. =)

Cheers.

P.S. I feel old. Some of the movies I went to actually had Intermissions and Opera type manners and expectations.

[pbjwilson]

Saw the movie and thought it was well done. Who cares that in a shot that lasts a few seconds that the train is english? Oh ya, train geeks.

[Darth Santa Fe]

It double posted. What in the world?

[Darth Santa Fe]

I notice unrealistic train things in movies and TV shows, too, but I don't really mind, cause HEY! There's a train in there!

I like making short movies on my computer or with my Legos in my free time, and I had one where an Athearn DASH 9 and Bachmann 4-4-0 came running through a Lego cowboy scene with a spaceman. That pretty much tells you how much I care about realism in movies.

For whatever reason, many people consider Citizen Kane the "greatest movie ever" (I do happen to like the movie myself).

I've never seen it, or even heard of it. Is it new?

I consider "Galaxy Quest" to be one of the greatest movies ever, even if there aren't any trains.

[Darth Santa Fe]

I notice unrealistic train things in movies and TV shows, too, but I don't really mind, cause HEY! There's a train in there!

I like making short movies on my computer or with my Legos in my free time, and I had one where an Athearn DASH 9 and Bachmann 4-4-0 came running through a Lego cowboy scene with a spaceman. That pretty much tells you how much I care about realism in movies.

For whatever reason, many people consider Citizen Kane the "greatest movie ever" (I do happen to like the movie myself).

I've never seen it, or even heard of it. Is it new?

I consider "Galaxy Quest" to be one of the greatest movies ever, even if there aren't any trains.

[vsmith]

Hehehe I loved it, especially the UP logo on the tender, wonder if Uncle Pete will sue them over that????  My wife was getting POd at me for pointing out all the errors in the film...

 

Simple reason WHY they did what they did......$$$$

 

The entire movie was filmed in England, all the French towns..were English, so were the Estates and the RRs, If you look carefully ..You can CLEARLY see the nameplate on the side of the loco, I wrote it down but lost it, its an English excursion engine, a 4-6-0, its the same engine as Hogswart I believe...and its the same train in both the USA and Paris scenes, like they couldnt have afforded to send a small crew to a small excursion line here in the US to shoot one scene???

 

Anyone also notice that the Zeppelin was flying WAY too low and in daylight? They would NEVER do that, not even with 100 escorts, a half-blind monkey at an AA battery could knock it out at that altitude. When they flew, they flew at night at at their service ceiling which was near 13,000 feet which was higher than the biplanes could fly,  plus in early 1916 they didnt HAVE incendiary bullets....The pilots would struggle to get their planes up the Zeppelins rarified altitudes and either drop small handheld bombs onto them or fire flareguns at them. All bullets would do was puncture the gasbags which the crews were trained at sealing fast. Incendiaries were introduced at the end of 1916.

 

But yeah, it was a fun "turn off your brain" movie...

[conagher]

Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast.

Yeh, everyone wants accuracy. George Cosmatos who directed Tombstone (the one with Kurt Russell & Sam Elliott) hired several noted Tombstone-specific historians to ensure accuracy. But guess what....even they slipped up on a few things.

History is nothing more than someone's interpretation of past events. Even eyewitnesses viewing the same thing can come up with totally different stories as evidenced by numerous versions of the events of the Tombstone shootout between the Earps & Clantons. It happens today in courtrooms all over America, too.

Even the History Channel has a disclaimer relative to the accuracy of it's content....and they're supposed to be the Numero Uno guys in the field.

As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts.

Lastly, be thankful someone took the time to make Fly Boys. When's the last time we had the pleasure of a WWI flying flick and especially with such excellent graphics.

Perhaps if we allow ourselves to be more entertained by a movie, we'll be less inclined to be critical of it's shortcomings.

[Anonymous]

Some people are saying movies aren't "what they used to be...".

For whatever reason, many people consider Citizen Kane the "greatest movie ever" (I do happen to like the movie myself).

How could people think this when in a large dancing scene, the actors were almost bumping their heads on the ceiling because the ceiling was so low?  (This was done in order to get microphones as close to the actors as possible - hidden up in the fake ceiling).

If you're this nitpicky, you probably shouldn't watch a single movie that was ever made.  They're all "fake"

[tomikawaTT]

Reality check time:

1.  Hollywood doesn't spend any money on research.  They may even cut script items that would assure accuracy if using them would involve delay or cash expenditure.  The excuse - "Who's going to notice, anyway?"

2.  When they need a train scene, they send a script girl down to the morgue to get some clips, then choose the one with the best dramatic effect.  That's why you'll see European steam in a documentary about American railroad history or a NYC Hudson pulling into Pittsburgh.

3.  By far and away, the vast majority of the mundanes are so caught up in the story line (or their dreams about the actors) that they wouldn't notice if the WWI hero had arrived in France aboard the Shinkansen.  Or climbed into the cockpit of a Mustang to give battle to the Hun.  Only folks with a proper historo-geographic-technical background find it impossible to maintain the necessary suspension of disbelief.

Now you know why I haven't gone to the movies in years.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

I find little things like trains from the improper era funny, etc., but come on guys, it doesn't matter.

I've been playing the drums since I was a kid.  In movies and TV shows, I often see drums that I know didn't exist until, say, 1990, in a movie based in the 70's, 50's, etc.  This happens all the time.

So what should a movie producer / director do?  Should they shoot every film on location, with 100% equipment from the proper era?

Lyp syncing / voice overs, etc. are so common, it's nuts.  If I gut upset about that every time I saw it, I wouldn't be able to watch a single movie.


I had a film class in college (being an engineer, this was a just-for-fun elective).  I learned a lot of interesting stuff about how clips are cut together, etc.  We watched some very classic movies that had tons of editing blunders.  Guess what, they don't matter!  (But they are fun to spot).

It's like if you were presenting something in a conversation in the workplace, etc., and someone pointed out all of your bad grammar.  Perfect grammar is nice, but it was likely beside the point, and had little to nothing to do with the overall outcome of your presentation.

[Tracklayer]

Sorry guys, but I can't deal with movies that aren't right... The only time I can kick back and relax with a movie is when I know ahead of time that it's total fiction. This particular movie burned me because I'm not only a model railroader but also a World War One fighter plane buff!... I'm really looking forward to the German version of the Red Baron. I've read some good reviews about it. I don't care how boring a movie is as long as is historically correct.

Tracklayer

I understand what you are saying. I have known folks in the past that have complained about certain things not being realistic in movies such as The Matrix.

Wait a minute now!. What is it that could not be possible in The Matrix ?... (ha ha). Cool movie!.

Tracklayer 

 

[Railphotog]

To me what's aggravating about such obvious mistakes is I've read that many of the movie maker go to very extreme measures to have some of the details "just right" at any cost.  These are often things that most people wouldn't even notice.  But major gaffes like the train thing are ignored.

A while ago I watched a Stephen King video "The Silver Bullet", which was supposed to have been set in the 1950's or so.  Again a train mistake - they showed a modern container train passing by with a FRED on the rear!  Way out of time on this one.  BTW the movie wasn't very good either, a surprise as I usually like King's movies.  I think this one went direct to video because I hadn't heard of it before.   I wonder why?

 

 

 

[csmith9474]

Sorry guys, but I can't deal with movies that aren't right... The only time I can kick back and relax with a movie is when I know ahead of time that it's total fiction. This particular movie burned me because I'm not only a model railroader but also a World War One fighter plane buff!... I'm really looking forward to the German version of the Red Baron. I've read some good reviews about it. I don't care how boring a movie is as long as is historically correct.

Tracklayer

I understand what you are saying. I have known folks in the past that have complained about certain things not being realistic in movies such as The Matrix.

[Tracklayer]

Sorry guys, but I can't deal with movies that aren't right... The only time I can kick back and relax with a movie is when I know ahead of time that it's total fiction. This particular movie burned me because I'm not only a model railroader but also a World War One fighter plane buff!... I'm really looking forward to the German version of the Red Baron. I've read some good reviews about it. I don't care how boring a movie is as long as is historically correct.

Tracklayer

[orsonroy]

I was watching "That 70's Show" the other day and noticed that when Red Forman opened his
beer, the pop top was one of those that stays attached to the can.... they didn't start using those
until the early 90's.

Mid-1980s, actually. The old pull tops were all long gone by 1990.

My problem with Hollywood is that in most cases, the producers/directors KNOW that what they're doing is inaccurate. They might not know exactly what's right, but they know that what they're doing is not it. And guess what? They don't care. In most cases (like Flyboys, but I haven't yet seen it), the director will spew off something like, "I know it's not right, but it looks better on film my way."

And so what? Most paintings aren't historically accurate either. Neither are most art photographts, which are composed in such a way to provide the viewer with only the impression that the photographer really wants (you think the scenery that Ansel Adams shot in was really that picturesque?).

Actually, I'll tell you why "so what". The problem is that the vast bulk of the American public is stupid. They have neither the means, intelligence, or inclination to care about "trivial" things like history (or science, literature, art, or any other "unimportant" subject). Make a movie of Superbowl XXIII, and they'll howl if you get it wrong, but have Napoleon say "Dude!" or use a M-60A3 in place of a Tiger I, and no one will give a rat's butt. Most of the general public takes what Hollywood feeds them as gospel truth. Show a secret plot by the Illuminati to kill Kennedy (pick one), or show ALL the Germans flying red triplanes, and they'll think that what they're seeing IS a documentary, and store away those small inaccuracies away as "truth". Eventually, they've got so many "truths" rattling away in their brains that they end up with a completely screwed up sense of the past. And it's that WRONG interpretation of the past that gets us into trouble at the polls.

Will Hollywood change? No, not really. They've been screwing up history since movies were invented. They got things wrong in Casablanca, for pete's sake, and that was a CONTEMPORARY movie. Will the public get any smarter? No; we just have to keep hammering away at them with reality and hope that some of it gets through to a handful of people (which is usually unlikely). To think that it's these people who run America...

 

(Moron people with a screwed up sense of history isn't new. In 1982 or 1983, when I was starting out in American Civil War reenacting, I heard this great conversation between a father and son, as they were walking towards the Confederate displays: "Daddy, daddy, look! It's the Dukes of Hazzard flag!!!" "That's right son; let's see if Boss Hogg is here."  Sigh...) 

[dave9999]

I was watching "That 70's Show" the other day and noticed that when Red Forman opened his
beer, the pop top was one of those that stays attached to the can.... they didn't start using those
until the early 90's. These things happen all of the time in movies and on television. Sometimes
you just have to overlook them. Good luck, Dave

[BRAKIE]

I still laugh when ever I watch "Rambo" shoot up the place with a M60 with a short ammo belt that last forever..Or how one man can kill off lots of bad guys while he's getting shot at by the same guys..

C'mon now guys  a movie is suppose to be fantasy entertainment.

 

Even the great award winning "Titanic" movie had several oops if one knows anything about RMSTitanic.

[rrebell]

Another note, the first sopwith triplanes hit combat nov. 1916 and these things don't apear overnite, the first german jet was in 1939 if I am not mistaken, but appeared in ww2 much later in combat.

[rrebell]

but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France...

It must been one hell of a tunnel.  All the German  RED  tri-planes  ruin  the movie for me.

A lot of triplanes were red on the german side, it was done to put fear into the allies as the Von Rictovins plane was red and since you could only tell a pilot by their plane color, you get the picture

[csmith9474]

Many times folks go to the movies to escape reality. As stated above, it is just a Hollywood movie, not a documentary. I will occasionaly catch myself "nit picking" movies, and quickly remind myself that it is just a Hollywood feature and nothing more. They produce what sells, not reality.

[cspmo]

Hollywood should try a little harder to make their movies more accurate. I'm not entertain when I'm shaking my head with big mistake like this movie had made. I bet the German movie about the Red Baron ( Rote Baron,Der) will be a lot better than Fly Boys.

[gn goat]

Might be a good idea to go to IMDB.com and post the errors under trivia and goofs.

 

the goat

[tatans]

It's a movie ! that should tell you enough, since when did Hollywood get in the information business? It's sole process is to make wads of money by producing schlock the public thinks they want, occaisionally, and very mysteriously the odd movie makes it to the public which does not question our intelligence. Take for instance a movie called 'Saskatchewan" a very flat bald-headed prairie Province in Canada, this movie was supposed to have taken place in the U.S. but was filmed in Banff-in the heart of the Rocky Mountains, and starred Marylin Monroe in a pair of sprayed on blue jeans, How's that for authenticity. I think if you are looking for accuracy, the very last place to look would be a Hollywood movie.  Try a book.