A few times lately I've been accused of "hating" steam locomotives because (most of the time) there are few or none in my shop.
Of course, I do not hate steam locomotives.
While trying to defend my business practices, I offer the following explanations for why there is a lack of steam in my store. Let's look at what is offered:
The Cheap Toyish Stuff - guess we can all agree a 40.00 steam locomotive is not worth stocking? If I can't have any faith in the product, I'm not going to stock it.
Next up the food chain is IHC: decent runners, look OK also. Not cheap, not real expensive. Had some a few years ago that tended to wobble. Short discount from my more convenient distributor. Never know when IHC will have one of those 2 page blow-out sales. Just not worth the risk for me to stock.
Bachmann Spectrum: this brand seems to be a good balance of quality and price. Now that DCC has been added, I'm not willing to stock them as not everyone here wants DCC and those that do don't want Bachmann DCC. One recent run of locomotives appeared on eBay a month before real shops took delivery...not sure how that can happen and certainly no one has given me an answer. Used to sell OK here, not so much anymore.
Now we get into the heights of detail, performance and quality with the price to prove it. I'd rather this thread not be turned into a "everything's over-priced" debate...but 300, 400, up to 700 dollars for a steam engine is a little steep for most of my market. I'm not saying they are not worth 400.00, I'm saying most folks just don't have that kind of money. Add in the limited run nature of the more expensive items, and it is the rare time when you see a Genesis, P2K Heritage, Broadway or PCM model in here.
So I get accused of "hating steam" due to the lack of steam inventory.
What would you stock if you owned a store? What does your local model train shop stock? Anyone have any practical ideas for addressing folks when they ask where are all my steam locomotives?
Would like to hear your thoughts. Any opinions will be appreciated!
A clarification edit: the title of this post was a direct quote (note the " "s) from two different customers in the last couple of months. I did not mean for it to be taken literally as to why anyone specifically would hate steam locomotives...sorry about that!
I see the dilema. I don't really have a local hobby shop and so if I need something I go to caboose hobbies so I can't really help you out on this one.
dekruif
Logic would indicate that the question must come from your clientele so it would seem other LHS's are of little matter. More importantly, it would seem, is are your customers seeking to buy steam loco's, if so, what manufacturer do they favor? DC or DCC? price range? or are they just window shopping and looking for an exit strategy for not buying anything at this time? IMHO. I believe you presented a substantial argument for your position and wouldn't advise a change.
Don
Goldmine wrote:Steam is boring! I didnt grow up in that era so it does not please or excite me. now if I was born in the 40's I would have saw alot of steam and would have a different feeling towards it but since I was born in the late 70's I do not KNOW srteam. I do not like cars from the 40's-80's either. Steam for me is just old guy stuff. OOOPs I mean well experienced guy stuff.
I have to be honest, I wouldn't buy a steam locomotive from a LHS. The kind I need (highly specialized, i.e., N scale PRR like the PCM M1b 4-8-2) would be so expensive and low-demand that no LHS would carry it. Even if they did, they're so darned expensive that I would have to search for an online bargain.
I love my LHS and support it whenever I can. I buy rolling stock, kits, magazines, and supplies there. But I draw the line at locomotives. When we talk in terms of hundreds, I just don't have enough cash to ignore the 30% or more savings I can often find online.
Sorry, One Track Mind! But I'm sure you've heard that before...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
tstage wrote: Goldmine wrote:Steam is boring! I didnt grow up in that era so it does not please or excite me. now if I was born in the 40's I would have saw alot of steam and would have a different feeling towards it but since I was born in the late 70's I do not KNOW srteam. I do not like cars from the 40's-80's either. Steam for me is just old guy stuff. OOOPs I mean well experienced guy stuff.Goldmine,You may not like steam but how can you call it "boring". It's anything but. Take a SD70 and a 4-8-4 or 2-8-8-2, run them side-by-side, and tell me which one is visually the more interesting one to watch. Side rods, pistons, steam, smoke, wheels, sound - all in synchronized motion. Old? Maybe. Boring? No way!Goldmine, have you ever ridden on or been next to a real steam engine when it is fired up? If not, take an opportunity for an eye-opening experience. You just might see it in a different light.TomP.S. I wasn't born in that era either...
Ok I am sorry but I have to rephase my first comment on steam. Surely it is not boring but I guess the words of OLD is a better choice of words. I am sure that you are absolutely correct about the SD70M and a 2-8-8-4 side by side which would be more interesting but when it comes to looks I would enjoy seeing the SD70M but thats just what I like. I apologize for the first statement of being boring
There is an old, old saying: "You can't do business from an empty wagon".
If your wagon is empty Sir, then I can't do business with you. I realize, that you can't afford to stock bad items, or items that your customer base is not interested in. Unfortunately, that is the case with most Hobby shops nowadays, because of the aging of the transition era generation, of which I am a member. That is why, I have no choice but to buy from internet sources. Over $15,000 in the past three years and counting. Your store is no longer relevent to my needs, and can't ever be.
I sympathize with your situation, but believe me, it can only get worse. My best friend, an ardent Model Railroader who ran an excellant shop in a Chicago suburb, finally had to give up the ghost for the very reasons you cite. And that was in 1980.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
First, steam is very specific to a certain railroad, meaning it's marketability is very limited.
The problem with Bachmann , even spectrum is uneven quality - some run good , some don't. A guy was bragging on the Bachmann board about great customer service as he had to send back 7 of his 10 for repairs and Bachmann fixed every one- great advertising, and yes, they were Spectrums.
For One Track - Bachmann become available in Hong Kong long before they are here which is why they end up on ebay before you get yours.
The problem with IHC is design. Some are OK some are not. How do you know which? As pointed out, when sales drop, they blow them out. Also it is hard to get parts for repair as they are pretty much not available.
Broadway's problem is perception - the PRR T1s and GG1 had problems that left people afraid. They are good about repair/replacement, but it can take time and people have no patience.
It's a dilemma for all the niche markets within the broader hobby of model railroading. There are usually only a few mr's (often less than 10 or 20) in any given niche (2 rail O, On3, On2, S, Sn3, pre-1920 HO, HOn3, HOn30, etc) within a given geographic area of an LHS. So the LHS doens't find it worth his while to stock for those niche markets. Because the LHS doesn't stock it, there is no exposure outside of being published in the magazines, and there is precious little new demand for niche market products. The manufacturers (nearly all small time) have a hard time growing their business for lack of exposure in the LHS.
The Internet is a great place for selling known products because it is mainly a one way communications medium. Here's a standard product, here's our low price. Because our price is low, we offer no support other than, at best, posting a picture of the product. We take your order and ship, and provide minimal follow-up. We know what to order by what gets sold. We don't bother with stocking or selling low demand items, or items that take more describing, or that might have a high return rate, or that might take instruction in its use.
For these reasons, the Internet is a crummy place to sell new products or products that are not well understood. I'll bet if the Walters catalog went away, there would be a lot less buying over the Internet. Without at least that level of detail in description and comparisons available to us, most of us would be a lot more hesitant to spend major $$ without seeing the item in advance.
But because in general the LHS won't stock their products, the niche market producers are forced into direct sales over the Internet, where they remain invisible to the mainstream hobbyist. How does the cycle get broken?
It really takes teamwork by the local niche hobbyists, the LHS, and the niche manufacturers to drive up demand to a reasonable level. An example is Caboose Hobbies. I am a loyal customer because they do stock mcuh of what is available for my 1900 era HO and HOn3. They have become known as one of (there are several others) the premiere sources for HOn3.
Another possible route was shown by Bachmann with their launch of On30. But that was only possible because Bachmann ensured everything a beginner would need was readily available, and the product looked good and ran well from the beginning. I imagine the story could be repeated in either HOn3 or HOn30 (but likely not both), but it takes risking some real $$ to launch. Early and geared steam also is risky, but has generally proven successful to those who took the risk.
Enough prattling. OTM, obviously some of your customers do want to buy steam. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't be asked about your lack of inventory. So there is some demand there. Find out what locomotives they would be interested in. Stock just a very few of those. Both Reed's in San Diego and Grandfather's do that with HOn3. Also, stock a few of the "cute", lower-priced steam engines that could be sold as "impulse" buys. The new Bachmann or Roundhouse 4-4-0, almost any reasonably priced Shay or Climax, and if somebody came out with a nice-looking (and decent running) small switcher or Docksider would all be candidates for "impulse" buys. An example of this working in practice is the initial releases of the MT HOn3 reefers. Lastly, immediately order for anybody requesting. Order double if you think it will sell. That way, you build your reputation as the LHS with the "goods" and drive demand up.
my thoughts, my advice is worth every dime you paid for it
Fred W
Maybe you could reply that you don't hate steam. You just hate that it doesn't move well, and takes up valuable space in your inventory far too long. Over time, steam will fizzle out for most modelers...that is a given for me. Once two generations beyond steam have come and gone, so will the interest in modeling for the most part....I repeat, for the most part.
If you look at the offerings of the online retailers and discounters, the diesels outnumber steamers by a wide margin, and that surely can't be because the retailers "hate" steam. The "like" moving stock that pleases their customers, because it keeps the liquidity for the business.
I suppose that some of the proven Spectrum stock (Mountain and Consolidation) could move, but how quickly is anyone's guess. IHC locos, as you say, are quite reasonable, and fairly reliable, so maybe they could have a place or two. The problem is that they are heavily discounted online, so how do you compete?
My LHS in Nanaimo sells maybe four steamers a year, if I can judge accurately by his display. In fact, I think he may move as many, or more, on consignment!
My LHS has a nice little operating demo layout, and he also does a good business installing and upgrading decoders. I frequently go in and see a steam engine that's under contract for sound, or a new model that's come in. I don't think he can keep them in stock. The immediate appeal of a steamer with sound moving down the tracks, surrounded by nice era-appropriate scenery, is too much for most of us. The MTH K4 came in, and he was going to set it up for demos, but it was sold by the next time I came in.
So, my advice is to have a nice place to demo the engines, and let them sell themselves. Sound is the big key right now, so the low-end engines will sell as fill-ins or second engines, but the real lure is ear power. As for me, I model the 1960's, but between my LHS and Bob Grech, I've been convinced that I need to plan my layout so I can swap out a few automobiles, and then put away my rolling stock and engines, and replace them with models from an earlier era.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I can appreciate your position as a store owner as not wanting to have alot of unmoveable stock on hand.
It's a shame that you think of steam that way though.
The other person who thinks that steam will 2 generations down the road be forgotten,well.........
I run steamers on my layout almost exclusively and my son (who's 19)who has never seen a real steam engine has absolutely NO INTEREST in diesels.
His take on it is "Why would I run diesels on my layout? If I want to see a diesel I'll just go down to the railroad station.
At our LHS they have a permanent layout so you can try out any engine you are thinking of buying.
We go there regularly.When they are running diesel engines, people just glance as they walk by looking for whatever they came for.
When the owner runs intermediate or large steamers everyone stops and gawks at the layout for extended periods of time.
Hope my input is of some small help.
Eric.
One Track Mind
I don't think I can offer any real solutions. I owned a store (not hobby) and one thing we did was offer layaway. None of our merchandise was over $100 but it seemed to help some of our cusotmers. It wasn't without hassle though. A LHS I do business with lets us do layaway too, and I bought a set of Genesis F units that way and it was appreciated.
Owning a small business is tough and it requires tough decisions. You would think with the wholesalers and just in time inventory that you could keep some items on hand without a huge inventory. Of course limited runs doesn't help that kind of set up, but that is for another thread.
Rick
Wichita, KS
Hey guys thanks for all the comments so far!
The reason I post this sort of thing is because when you are so close to the subject all the time, you wonder if your own thinking is jaded or whatever, always like to hear what others think.
Just to reiterate, while I don't model the steam era I personally have no dislike of steam. Chased the 3985 halfway across the state awhile back.
And it's not that steam sits here and does not sell, more like, it DOES sell and then it's sold out...this is of course a problem with some diesel releases too.
As I mentioned, I think some brands have their drawbacks....others, it's just the limited edition nature of things that make it hard to keep steam in stock.
And yes, I definately see an interest in steam from younger folks. And by younger I mean, anyone born after steam had disappeared. Some of you might be surprised at the interest displayed in steam by customers - others, obviously from your posts - would not be surprised at all at the continued interest.
May well reply some more later, back to work.
Hi Goldmine
I was born in the sixties so saw the end of steam in the early seventies.
I consider diesels to be boring push a button and it goes ,where as a steam locomotive if you don't treat it right you will not get it to run well and two locomotives from the same class built in the same workshop will have different characteristics.
The closest thing to a living machine man has so far built.
I would add turning back to the real topic in hand the manufacturers seem to to have less and less steam locomotives in their catalogues these days
So it gets even harder because you cannot sell what no one is making and with all due respect the quality of the current locomotives is absolute rubish in the reasonable price range stuff
I have a Tri-ang US outline pacific that is older than I am and it runs well but I will need some motor brushes for it soon which can be replaced.
I have a modern loco that has run its two hundred hours and according to the manufacturer I should throw out the motor an buy a new motor as its not repairable.
Great detail that runs rings around the old one but the old one has quality of manufacture that the new doesn't even attempt to come close to.
So the question I would ask is why would any one want to buy modern manufactured trains the quality just isn't there like it used to be
Regards John
As for not appreciating steam because you were "botn too late", a little anecdote. My 2 sons were born in 1962 and 1966. When theAmerican Freedom Train was in Spokane I drove them out to a grade crossing about 3 miles from where the diesel that double headed the train to get it out of the Spokane River Valley was cut off. It was well after dark and by the time he got to us he was doing about 45 MPH and accelerating w/ quite a bit of extra work on the whistle. After the last car went by, my elder son looked over at me and, in a hushed voice, said' "Now I know what all the fuss over steam is about". We now go out every time SP&S 700, SP 4449, or UP 3985 show up and chase them from La Grande Oregon to Garrison Mt (Is the Pac NW a great place to live or what?!). There are steam engines running all over the country. Get out there and watch a few, up close and personal.
As for dsl vs stm in the hobby shop, let's keep in mind that most of the current MRR interest is either BNSF or UP in the West and CSX or NS in the East. What would a hobby shop in, say St; Louis, KC or Chicago, have to stock to have a representative sample of local RRs reaching back into the '45-'55 era?
I have heard it many times from vareous shops that they will not carry certain brands becuase the the manufacturer undercuts the shop by having a sale. What are they thinking? I work for a dirrect from producer delivery service and even when we have sales we barely come close to the market or big box store price as they sell much more than us.
If the manufacturer can afford to have a sale that undercuts what the shop has already purchased from them, is it possible to give them a credit at cost so they in turn could also have a sale on those items? Maybe only upon the sale of such items.Then the shop could actually buy more to stock and stay up to date. Would that help support the shops better? I know everyone makes more on the higher priced items, but wouldn't the shop owner appreciate moving some items to have a chance to order the newer better items?
In terms of the steam, I like it but in N-scale they don't run as well as most of the diesels. I plan to have a fleat of them one day after I get my diesel are stuff running well ( proving the trackwork ). I will have steam era only sessions and then switch back and forth. The layout is not big enough for both.
Well good luck to al those train stores out there I have recently been reduced to one in reasonable driving distance. It seems to me that the shops that stay around for a while are in high rent areas where people are not looking so much for a bargain. There is more disposable income around. In the past I would search out shops in the desert areas, but most have closed leaving the few expensive shops open but usually fairly well stocked.
John