FORUM CLINIC: Operating like the prototype

[n2mopac]

Ron,Your are correct if you follow the rules..However..I know several guys that uses real 10 minutes as one hour without braking it down into "scale" time.On my industrial switching layouts I use 15-1 thats 15 real minutes to one wee hour.60 minutes would be 4 wee hours to my HO crews..

This 10-1 works especially well and doesn't put the rush on the yard masters like your mention 6:1 ratio..Remember there is NO law/rule stating you need to break real time to scale time ratios.

 

I didn't want to come off like the ratio police. I was just trying to avoid what might cause confusion to some by clarifying the meaning of the ratio.

Ron

[BRAKIE]

Ron,Your are correct if you follow the rules..However..I know several guys that uses real 10 minutes as one hour without braking it down into "scale" time.On my industrial switching layouts I use 15-1 thats 15 real minutes to one wee hour.60 minutes would be 4 wee hours to my HO crews..

This 10-1 works especially well and doesn't put the rush on the yard masters like your mention 6:1 ratio..Remember there is NO law/rule stating you need to break real time to scale time ratios.

 

I didn't want to come off like the ratio police. I was just trying to avoid what might cause confusion to some by clarifying the meaning of the ratio.

Ron

 

Thats cool..

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Track Warrants

Read this forum clinic post by clicking here.

Yay, finally got a chance to add the next installment to this clinic. Post your comments here in this thread.

[jfugate]

Hmmm ... no questions so far?

I guess you're all so stunned by the latest post that you're speechless.

(Or maybe you're thinking what bunch of $%^#$#@?)

[SilverSpike]

Hmmm ... no questions so far?

I guess you're all so stunned by the latest post that you're speechless.

(Or maybe you're thinking what bunch of $%^#$#@?)

Hey Joe, just gettin around to the forum since yesterday. I am sure it is all well and good!

Your attention to prototype detail and prototype operations is certainly one I am striving to match, and your clinics continue to point me in the right direction. Thanks once again!

Cheers,

Ryan

[johncolley]

I would think that in the pre-radio days ('47-'50) that I model, the last operator before Roseburg would have OS'ed the train so the YM Roseburg would know when to expect it in and would have the siding or A/D track lined up and ready for an inbound that would indeed have to "clear main track at last named point." Happy railroading, eh? jc5729

[BRAKIE]

Joe,Remember a track warrant *may* not take you all the way to a yard but to a given CP or mile post depending on the yard inbound tracks..Also under CTC no track warrants is needed EXCEPT for SPECIAL moves because train movement is govern by the DS using signals.

What are these special moves? Hi/Rail vehicles,Burro cranes,MOW  equipment working a section of track,reverse switching moves that require entering another block WITH PERMISSION to pass a absolute stop for head room,permission by a stop indication etc..

A track warrant can also be issued with a time limit.

Track Form 23A Permit number 40 dated 08-30-06 issued to L49 At West Benson at 12:02Pm.From West Benson to East Benson single to single and back to your train.Good till 12:30PM

Dispatcher Lowery

All of this adds realism to our operations.

[cpeterson]

Love the new clinic, would love a pdf version later to refer to if possible.

[WSOR 3801]

It all depends on the Railroad.

On our outfit, with no passing siding long enough to hold a train, we get a line 2 usually:

2.  Proceed from Yard Limit Horicon South to Yard Limit Slinger North on main track.

If there is another job coming out right after us, we both get line 4 Work Between, with a line 11.

11  Between YL Hor S and YL Slin N make all movements at restricted speed.  Limits occupied by train.

This doesn't cost us much time as all but 2 miles of this territory is 10 mph.  Restricted speed is able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision, don't hit anything, look for broken rail, not exceeding 20 mph (15 on some roads).

We also get a line 16 Track bulletins in effect.  If there are none, we write "None" in the space provided.

When we are coming towards our yards, we call about 30 mins. out, to find out if we should hold outside of town, drag our feet, or come right in.  Sometimes we call at the yard board, sometimes further out.  Sometimes you find out about "bonus moves" at this point, but usually 5 mins before you try to get off the train.

In the CTC I run over (CN using USOR rules), things are different.  You get a TGBO (Tabular General Bulletin Order), which shows all the foremen out working, any messages (watch out for ribbon rail laying along side main track, etc.), and any speed restriction not in the timetable.  If the signal system doesn't work right, or you need headroom or to tie back on to your train, you get talked by the signal if needed.  "WSOR 3801 South, after stopping, you may proceed past the signal displaying Stop indication, hand throw the swich at Grand Ave, and proceed south, CN main to WSOR main, restoring the switch to power."  Then you have to repeat the whole thing back over the radio.  Then do what needs to be done.  If emergency type work needs to be done, the foreman gets a Track and Time.  "Foreman Smith has track and time between South Waukesha switch no and Grand Ave switch no until released.  DS."  The switch yes/no is the area around the switch between the signals.

It seems overwhelming at first, but when you do it every day, it becomes second nature.  You know you work too much when you call out traffic signals.  "Clear"  "Diverging Clear"  "All red, that'll do"

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Train Procedures

Read this forum clinic post by clicking here.

[Railfan Alex]

So far I am injoying this clinic very much!

[SilverSpike]

So far I am injoying this clinic very much!

 

I agree, Joe's clinics are the highlight of the MR forum.

Keep them coming Joe!

[jfugate]

Now that I'm finally done bailing water out of my basement, I hope to post the next installment of this clinic in the next day or so.

[n2mopac]

Now that I'm finally done bailing water out of my basement, I hope to post the next installment of this clinic in the next day or so.

Bailing water? Did I miss something?

Ron

[BRAKIE]

Of course a lot depends on the railroad..What you are calling train procures we called WHEEL REPORTS and WORK ORDERS...On the PRR a Form 19 could be use as special instructions for handling special moves such as moving MOW cars say from MP115.8 to MP132.4.These types of moves was usually done by locals or extras and was govern by work rules and operation rules..The good part is if these MOW cars had steel under frames then we could place them behind the locomotive consist if not then they had to be place in front of the cabin.Of course some conductors would place these cars behind the cabin..This was done to save moves and was still within the rules.A red flag would protect the end of the train.

[jfugate]

Now that I'm finally done bailing water out of my basement, I hope to post the next installment of this clinic in the next day or so.

Bailing water? Did I miss something?

Ron

No kidding, you missed something. See my web site ...

[btransue]

Now that I'm finally done bailing water out of my basement, I hope to post the next installment of this clinic in the next day or so.

Are you going to post your water bill - after the city was nice enough to help you clean your layout and driveway?

Hopefully everything is getting back to normal.

[dehusman]

Giving a "work between" to a following train if they are really both going in the same direction is very dependent on the railroad and their individual rules.  Some railroads frown on this type of operation (especially if its for any distance).

Also some railroads give every train regardless of where they operate a "track warrant", but in CTC they would get a "track warrant for bulletins" which is similar to a clearance in TT&TO days, it doesn't convey any authority, just lists the bulletins the train gets (bulletins being informational messages such a slow orders, gangs working and other information affectin ght eoperation of the trains.

Dave H.

[n2mopac]

Now that I'm finally done bailing water out of my basement, I hope to post the next installment of this clinic in the next day or so.

Bailing water? Did I miss something?

Ron

No kidding, you missed something. See my web site ...

Oh man! That really stinks! Sounds like recovery is progressing well though. I hope the city covers all of  your repair as they should. If not, I hope you have flood insurance.

Ron

[jfugate]

NEW CLINIC POST!

TOPIC THIS POST: Helper Operations

Read this forum clinic post by clicking here.

Finally, another installment in the series, now that we no longer are trying to make model railroading a water sport.

[devils]

Keep it coming Joe, this is providing a whole stack of inspiration for the layout we are planning for our club and the Layout design group site link was a help too.

Thanks again Paul

[SilverSpike]

Keep 'em coming Joe!

Glad to hear that the water works issue has been resolved, two weeks between updates on this thread was way to long!

As usual, and once again you keep me motivated and intrigued with the finer details of model railroad operations.

Thanks and cheers,

Ryan

 

[BRAKIE]

Joe,IMHO you should rethink your locomotives tractive force..A SD unit would be able to pull more then a GP unit due to the tractive efforts between a 6 axle unit and a 4 axle unit plus a GP40 will have more tracrive efort then a GP9.Also,again IMO your trains should be long enough (say 15-20 cars) so when this train is yarded the yard switcher can make 2 cuts instead of pulling the whole train..After all it took 2-3 road units pull this train across the division..

[Wyonate]

I'm on!  Lets go!

[jfugate]

Joe,IMHO you should rethink your locomotives tractive force..A SD unit would be able to pull more then a GP unit due to the tractive efforts between a 6 axle unit and a 4 axle unit plus a GP40 will have more tracrive efort then a GP9.Also,again IMO your trains should be long enough (say 15-20 cars) so when this train is yarded the yard switcher can make 2 cuts instead of pulling the whole train..After all it took 2-3 road units pull this train across the division..

Larry:

I understand your point, but model loco tractive effort often has little to do with prototype loco tractive effort. My main goal was to have something very simple that emphasized the difference between second generation and first generation units, yet kept the trains lengths within the bounds of the layout design. By my way of thinking, something simple is way better than nothing at all. And you if you try to simulate every little nuance of the prototype, the session starts to feel more like work than play.

I really don't want a tractive effort chart that uses fractional cars, so what do you suggest?

Keep in mind that my maximum train length should be about 25 fifty-foot cars (not including motive power), and I'd like anything over about 20 cars to need helpers.

[BRAKIE]

Joe,Heres the method the club uses..1-12 cars rates a 4 or 6 axle unit.13-20 cars rates 2 4 axle unit.

Now the fun begins..

20-35 cars 3 4 axle units or 2 6 axle units.

36-50  cars 4 4 axle units or 3 6 axle units.

This method works quite well..The yardmaster tells the "Superintendent of motive power"(aka the hostler) the number of cars in a train and the hostler then assigns the needed locomotives simply by looking at a index card attached to the hostlers panel .

Our steepest grade is "Scary Hill" a 1.75% grade.

Simple no?

 

You can adjust for your givens and a 21 car train will need helpers.

 

 

[jfugate]

Larry:

Thanks for your response.

I just remember trains on the Siskiyou Line with a bunch of SD9s on the front because their tractive effort is so much less than second generation units, and my method simulates that memory nicely. Somehow, seeing a train with the same number of SD45s on the front as SD9s just doesn't do it for me.

The GP vs SD difference would not give me near the heartburn that first generation versus second generation does. So my method works for me and yours works for you. Neither method simulates reality properly if you want to get technical.

It all comes down to what matters to you in your modeling. It's all a simulation and our plastic diesels don't use real diesel and our plastic steamers don't run on real steam, and that's just the beginning of how our models aren't like the real McCoy.

If we're having fun, that's the main thing!

[jfugate]

Larry:

The other thing I notice with your club's method is it assumes all the locos in the lashup are 4 or 6 axle units, which may not be realistic. On the Siskiyou Line, all loco consists are made up before the session starts. Seems like your club's method could be a problem with premade lashups like I use ... what if you have a lashup that's an SD40, SD45, and a GP40? How many cars can that lashup pull with your club's method? That's not clear.

Bottom line is your club's method also ignores certain realities, just like mine does. We all pick our poison, as the saying goes.

[Pruitt]

Another approach to pulling power is to use the "Scale Power" method John Page described in an "At The Throttle" editorial W-A-Y back in the late 1950's - "Scale Powering" the locos themselves.

Combining "Scale Powering" with Joe's approach, all SD9's and GP9's would have enough weight careved out of their frames that each loco could only pull six cars on a grade without slipping, while the second-generation stuff would have enough of their frames removed to pull only seven cars on the grade without slipping.

Brakie's club could do the same thing based on number of axles.

You'd also need to "Scale Power" the yard switchers, so that they would pull perhaps only four or five cars on level track. That way, when the second-generation lash-up brought in a 21-car freight, that single little switcher would have no chance in hades of moving even a sizeable portion of the train. It would have to break it into pieces to sort it - prototypical, no?

All you need to do to get started is to overcome your revulsion at the idea of carving out a lot of weight in your locomotives!

[n2mopac]

Hey everyone. I've been gone a while and I just wondered if this clinic died. Joe, is there still more to come, or have we all moved on now? Just wondering. I've appreciated greatly this and all of the clinics Joe has led here. Let us know what's happening.

Ron