Don Gibson wrote: No droop. Same height. Congratulations. New cars? New camera? - (New photograph).
No droop. Same height. Congratulations.
New cars? New camera? - (New photograph).
Thanks Don..No,those particular cars dates back to the 90s.The camera is about a year old..Thinking about upgrading to a 6.0 or 7.0 though.
Again nothing special I just straighten the frame and weight to eliminate that droop..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Let's see..
No droops..Thats the way all of my cars look..
Anybody care to share their pictures? Anybody?
Hello group, I thought I'd chime in a bit since Kadee has been mentioned numerous times. Thanks to all of you that have commented about using a coupler height gauge as the most important tool to have concerning coupler mounting. The following are a few items I'd like to point out as far as Kadee is concerned.
When we do a coupler conversion and put it on our extensive listing it's based on the particular model we have in our possession and certainly not the entire production run of that model. That's why we always recommend to "check every coupler" against our coupler height gauge. Our coupler recommendations are only a starting point to help you eliminate the process of choosing a coupler. There are many modelers that have little trouble with coupler mounting and have develpoed their skills and experience to the point that they need little if any help. However, there are modelers of all skill levels and some have the darnest times with couplers, mostly with understanding the importance of having "all" their couplers at the "same height" and as "level as possible". So those of you who have the experience and skills I commend you in helping those who ask for help. I rarely have to comment on these forums when modelers ask for help, someone will eventually give them the "correct" help they need.
If the "trip pin" hangs too low, most often, either the coupler is mounted too low or it's drooping (slanted). The trip pins are set at the factory and are very consistent, only rarely do have to adjust the trip pin from the factory. So before you mess with the trip pin always check the coupler mounting. Use the shim washers only up to about .030" after that you should use an offset coupler or find another way to raise the coupler height.
There are manufacturers that do a commendable job of keeping their coupler pockets to certain consistent standards (Kadee thanks you!), however, there are some that simply give little regard (if any) to any standards or modelers desires and needs to use quality dependable couplers on their models. This is why we offer so many products and all of our coupler conversion information.
This is getting far to extensive, I could write a couple of volumes on coupler mounting and fine tuning couplers for top performance but this forum is not the place so those who have comments or questions please feel free to contact me directly at mail@kadee.com.
Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products
BRAKIE wrote: Don,Look at the pictures I posted..Notice those are #5s and there is NO droop.If you would like better pictures I will post same.
Don,Look at the pictures I posted..Notice those are #5s and there is NO droop.If you would like better pictures I will post same.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD. I have always found Athearn BB cars to be lower than others ... and it looks like one of the cars pictured, its coupler is lower than the other . On Second thought, don't bother. I know how careful you are assembling kits. I don't want to put you to any extra work.
"If you Guys would take your time and build those Athearn cars correctly you would have trouble free cars..Those are simple kits that need to be put together properly and that includes straighten the frame and weight...I am surprise-nay shock - that you guys don't already know that"- BRAKIE
FIRST time I've heard the word "build" in reference to what's been known as 'Shake-the-box' kits. No matter.
I'm glad if your couplers don't droop. You must have figured out how to combine a KD coupler in a non KD box, originally designed for cheap horn-hooks. Unfortunately, 'newbies' don't have your skills.
Q: How exactly do you "straighten" a flimsy molded plastic frame - maybe I should say "what frame? "
Regards.
The problem I have had most often when adding Kadee couplers to Athearn Blue Box cars (purchased my first one in 1968) has been that one end turns out at correct height while the other end is usually low. The fibre washers have been the quickest fix; and, of course, bending the trip pin so it doesn't snag on frogs. Those Kadee pliars are great for that.
Cheers,
TomDiehl wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Tom,Please reread my relies.I also use the KD coupler height gauge or did you miss that part? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to install KD couplers..After all its common sense installation that the greenest of newbies can do using a KD coupler height gauge and following instructions.. Tom,With the highest respect,I simply fail to see why you are stumbling putting KD #5 couplers on cars and using the toy like off set coupler? I have read many of your replies and know you are a competent modeler.I am just confused why you are having issues. It's not that Im stumbling on anything. I've worked with a lot of new people in model railroading, as well as other areas. Your replies would seem to lead the newbies to believe that they can just drop in the coupler recommended on the Kadee list, set the car/loco on the rails and run it with no problems. The point I'm trying to make, especially to the newbies, is that the list is a guideline, not an absolute, plus all couplers MUST be checked with the gauge and adjusted as necessary.
BRAKIE wrote: Tom,Please reread my relies.I also use the KD coupler height gauge or did you miss that part? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to install KD couplers..After all its common sense installation that the greenest of newbies can do using a KD coupler height gauge and following instructions.. Tom,With the highest respect,I simply fail to see why you are stumbling putting KD #5 couplers on cars and using the toy like off set coupler? I have read many of your replies and know you are a competent modeler.I am just confused why you are having issues.
Tom,Please reread my relies.I also use the KD coupler height gauge or did you miss that part? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to install KD couplers..After all its common sense installation that the greenest of newbies can do using a KD coupler height gauge and following instructions..
Tom,With the highest respect,I simply fail to see why you are stumbling putting KD #5 couplers on cars and using the toy like off set coupler? I have read many of your replies and know you are a competent modeler.I am just confused why you are having issues.
It's not that Im stumbling on anything. I've worked with a lot of new people in model railroading, as well as other areas. Your replies would seem to lead the newbies to believe that they can just drop in the coupler recommended on the Kadee list, set the car/loco on the rails and run it with no problems.
The point I'm trying to make, especially to the newbies, is that the list is a guideline, not an absolute, plus all couplers MUST be checked with the gauge and adjusted as necessary.
Tom,I have never suggested to any newbie they can drop and operate..I push 2 things for reliable operation of freight and passenger cars..The NMRA gauge and the KD coupler gauge...Those are are must haves.
Now why complicate the obvious? Again the greenest of newbies car install a KD coupler by following KD's instructions that comes in every pack of couplers which also says to use their coupler height gauge for correct coupler height and the instructions suggest the use of their washers if needed to obtain proper coupler height..How plain and simple can that be? Again,the greenest of newbies can understand that.Heck KD even makes it easy to convert truck mounted coupler to KDs without the need to body mount the couplers IF one wishes to use truck mounter couplers.
Again when its comes to the Athearn car kit care must to taken while assembling the kit and as mention that includes the need to straighten the frame and weight if needed to eliminate the coupler droops..What was so complex about that statement? Does it go against the grain of "expert" advice? I hope not..Its common knowledge and should be a lesson for those that don't know...
BRAKIE wrote: Tom,Those washers also fit other brands of cars and I know you should already know that. The only time I hear of ANYBODY body using the off set couplers is on forums.Why? To many self appointed forum "experts" won't listen and think their way is the only way.I just don't understand that... Sorry Tom,Those unknown thousands that have been building Athearn cars for years and using #5s can't be wrong.Even KD recommends #5s and the look alike 20 for Athearn cars..Is KD wrong to? http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ath31.pdf
Tom,Those washers also fit other brands of cars and I know you should already know that.
The only time I hear of ANYBODY body using the off set couplers is on forums.Why? To many self appointed forum "experts" won't listen and think their way is the only way.I just don't understand that...
Sorry Tom,Those unknown thousands that have been building Athearn cars for years and using #5s can't be wrong.Even KD recommends #5s and the look alike 20 for Athearn cars..Is KD wrong to?
http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ath31.pdf
I know they fit other brands, as I said before none of the manufacturer's rolling stock will take the same number coupler every time, on both ends, without some sort of shimming or adjustment on the coupler box or truck mount to match the gauge.
I never said they were wrong. I was one of them. But very few of the #5's went on without some sort of shimming to adjust it. The offset head couplers help get the adjustment right with less shimming. I've seen a LOT of people use the offset head couplers and they match the gauge perfectly.
If you read Kadee's instructions, as the "unknown thousands" have done, you will find that Kadee tells you to check them with the gauge after installation and adjust as necessary, regardless of what car or loco you put them on. Kadee's recommended chart isn't a guarantee that a certain number coupler will fit and be perfectly aligned in all cases without adjustment.
As unmacho as it may sound, I DID read the instructions. That's why I own and use the Kadee gauge. And I'm sure you will have others tell you the same.
BRAKIE wrote: TomDiehl wrote: BRAKIE wrote:That is true but,by straighten the frame and weight that saves a lot of work getting the BB cars to the correct height by eliminating the droop and #5s can be used.Savvy? The coupler height gauge still needs to be the final step in determining the correct height. Athearn, as well as any other brand kit or RTR needs to be checked. As I said above, the Walthers RTR Superliner cars I got last year don't have one type of coupler in all of them. Some even have a different number in each end. You're assuming a consistency that just isn't there, kit or RTR. We agree there..All I am saying there are steps that can be taken to correct the BB coupler droops.Now,I can ALMOST eyeball the coupler and know if it will be low or to high..Of course I use the KD coupler gauge to insure the correct coupler height. Tom,I will tell you this..I have use #5s in all of my cars since 1966.Now if that isn't a consistency then what is? Are you implying that the thousands of us that uses the #5 in cars for years are wrong because there is NO consistency??
TomDiehl wrote: BRAKIE wrote:That is true but,by straighten the frame and weight that saves a lot of work getting the BB cars to the correct height by eliminating the droop and #5s can be used.Savvy? The coupler height gauge still needs to be the final step in determining the correct height. Athearn, as well as any other brand kit or RTR needs to be checked. As I said above, the Walthers RTR Superliner cars I got last year don't have one type of coupler in all of them. Some even have a different number in each end. You're assuming a consistency that just isn't there, kit or RTR.
BRAKIE wrote:That is true but,by straighten the frame and weight that saves a lot of work getting the BB cars to the correct height by eliminating the droop and #5s can be used.Savvy?
The coupler height gauge still needs to be the final step in determining the correct height. Athearn, as well as any other brand kit or RTR needs to be checked. As I said above, the Walthers RTR Superliner cars I got last year don't have one type of coupler in all of them. Some even have a different number in each end. You're assuming a consistency that just isn't there, kit or RTR.
We agree there..All I am saying there are steps that can be taken to correct the BB coupler droops.Now,I can ALMOST eyeball the coupler and know if it will be low or to high..Of course I use the KD coupler gauge to insure the correct coupler height.
Tom,I will tell you this..I have use #5s in all of my cars since 1966.Now if that isn't a consistency then what is? Are you implying that the thousands of us that uses the #5 in cars for years are wrong because there is NO consistency??
Why do you think Kadee released those fiber washers that are .010 and .015 inch thick that just happen to fit on the bolster shoulder of an Athearn car? These came out before the offset head couplers, all were designed to adjust for this lack of consistency. Ask how many of those thousands of people never used the washers before the offset heads were available.
BRAKIE wrote:If you Guys would take your time and build those Athearn cars correctly you would have trouble free cars..Those are simple kits that need to be put together properly and that includes straighten the frame and weight...I am surprise-nay shock - that you guys don't already know that.
But you still have to check and adjust the coupler height, which is the whole point of this thread.
And that applies to ANY brand of rolling stock.
Don Gibson wrote: The droop will not be corrected by adjusting the trip pin (metal hose as you call it). These are two separate adjustments that need to be done. In HO, the coupler center needs to be 25/64 inch above and parallel to the railhead. The trip pin needs to clear the railhead by 1/32 inch. The overset and underset head couplers will compensate for slightly high or low mounts, but will only compensate for 1/16 inch difference underset to center and 3/64 inch center to overset. As I said above, there is no absolute for which number coupler will align with these specs for every one of a certain brand car or loco. They have to be measured on each one as well as each end, and adjusted. If the coupler "droops," check to see if there's vertical play in the coupler when mounted. The play needs to be eliminated by shimming or filing down the coupler box opening height-Tom Tom: I agree with you. Bending the trip pin does not correct the 'droop'. It helps correct the 'snagging' on frogs - which seems to be a preferable fix for many old-time modelers at our club - and espcially those that say "What droop?" It seens that the Athearn molded-on coupler box has more play in it than Kaydee's, which exaserbates the problem - as does the famous car weight which is seldom flat.
The droop will not be corrected by adjusting the trip pin (metal hose as you call it). These are two separate adjustments that need to be done. In HO, the coupler center needs to be 25/64 inch above and parallel to the railhead. The trip pin needs to clear the railhead by 1/32 inch. The overset and underset head couplers will compensate for slightly high or low mounts, but will only compensate for 1/16 inch difference underset to center and 3/64 inch center to overset. As I said above, there is no absolute for which number coupler will align with these specs for every one of a certain brand car or loco. They have to be measured on each one as well as each end, and adjusted. If the coupler "droops," check to see if there's vertical play in the coupler when mounted. The play needs to be eliminated by shimming or filing down the coupler box opening height-Tom
Tom: I agree with you. Bending the trip pin does not correct the 'droop'. It helps correct the 'snagging' on frogs - which seems to be a preferable fix for many old-time modelers at our club - and espcially those that say "What droop?" It seens that the Athearn molded-on coupler box has more play in it than Kaydee's, which exaserbates the problem - as does the famous car weight which is seldom flat.
Problem with that is, if you run a 50 car train through the helix, they WILL uncouple. (and that, again, is the voice of experience).
The other problem I've seen with the Athearn coupler pocket is the metal cover. A lot of them I've seen have a rough edge against where the coupler needs to swivel. As a matter of routine, I file these smooth before assembly.
Don,Look at the pictures I posted..Notice those are #5s and there is NO droop..
If you would like better pictures I will post same..
Don Gibson wrote: "Don,Are you serious? I and unknown thousands have no problems installing KD couplers on Athearn cars and engines.... care must be taken while building these simple car kits - BRAKIE BRAKIE I'm sure that "untold thousands" have no problems 'installing' KD couplers on Athearn cars and engines. Getting them at correct height can be more of a problem. Did you know Kaydee tooled their 'underset' shank primarily for Athearn BB cars? Kadee 'droop' is endemic. It's the primary reason Kadee designed a (#237) tool to bend the metal 'hose' up so it won't snag on frogs. Kadee also sells (#211)shims for that purpose. I gather you have not used them. http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page160.htm ONE advantage of using Athearn car kits if they 'droop' the same - match well enough to couple. For 'thousands', that's good enough
"Don,Are you serious? I and unknown thousands have no problems installing KD couplers on Athearn cars and engines.... care must be taken while building these simple car kits - BRAKIE
BRAKIE
I'm sure that "untold thousands" have no problems 'installing' KD couplers on Athearn cars and engines. Getting them at correct height can be more of a problem. Did you know Kaydee tooled their 'underset' shank primarily for Athearn BB cars?
Kadee 'droop' is endemic. It's the primary reason Kadee designed a (#237) tool to bend the metal 'hose' up so it won't snag on frogs. Kadee also sells (#211)shims for that purpose. I gather you have not used them.
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page160.htm
ONE advantage of using Athearn car kits if they 'droop' the same - match well enough to couple. For 'thousands', that's good enough
Not quite. The droop will not be corrected by adjusting the trip pin (metal hose as you call it). These are two separate adjustments that need to be done. In HO, the coupler center needs to be 25/64 inch above and parallel to the railhead. The trip pin needs to clear the railhead by 1/32 inch. The overset and underset head couplers will compensate for slightly high or low mounts, but will only compensate for 1/16 inch difference underset to center and 3/64 inch center to overset. As I said above, there is no absolute for which number coupler will align with these specs for every one of a certain brand car or loco. They have to be measured on each one as well as each end, and adjusted. If the coupler "droops," check to see if there's vertical play in the coupler when mounted. The play needs to be eliminated by shimming or filing down the coupler box opening height.
The trip pin tool made it easier to adjust the trip pin clearance as it was easier to get a small change in the bend of the steel rod than with needle nose pliers, which were recommended in the coupler instructions before the release of this tool.
What Brakie means by "taking care" is installing them per the instructions. It seems like a lot of work the first time or two you do it, but it becomes second nature rather quickly and they can be mounted and adjusted in a few minutes.
OK, I know the thing that I need to match coupler height but what I do not know is what to do when there is a problem?
FIRST thing - as has been suggested - is get a Kadee #205 Coupler gauage.
SECOND thing is to set up & read the instructions.
Also has been suggested is an assortment of KD couplers, and washers. (Reread).
Famous saying: NOTHING WORKS, UNTIL YOU DO.
emdgp92 wrote: SqueakyWheels wrote:All the rest of the rolling stock will then have to be modified. Even Athearn BB stock- won't be consistent in coupler heights. It can be a frustrating experience, only second to derailments.I've noticed that too. Some Athearn cars will be spot-on, while the others will need either offset couplers, or a washer on the truck bolsters.
SqueakyWheels wrote:All the rest of the rolling stock will then have to be modified. Even Athearn BB stock- won't be consistent in coupler heights. It can be a frustrating experience, only second to derailments.
I've noticed the same thing, and not only with Athearn. Most recent changes were the Walthers Superliner cars. Some even have different number couplers on each end.
Don Gibson wrote: I don't know why, but it seems to be to everyone's surprise that Athearn is not in step with the NMRA, as well as designing products that discourage use of Kadee couplers. BB, RTR, and GENESIS!. ONLY excuse is one doesn't have a KD coupler gauge. Having one without using it is inexcusable. They're cheap, plus you're buying Athearn BLUE BOX: Car's standard coupler pockets have a friction sprung botton that droops, and even falls off when coupling cars together too hard. SOLUTION: is to CUT OFF the molded-on coupler box with an XACTO blade and cement on a KD #5. BB Engines have HOT chassis. Metal couplers must be insulated from the chassis. NO #4s. Consult Kadee's website for recommendations OR USE # 30'S. RTR's: I have will take the #5 (or #40 series to clear the snowplow) - provided the lip has been removed from the top to allow seating. GENESIS: units' coupler pockets need #20 series to fit, except the Highliner shelled 'F's which take #33's and #38'A' noses to preserve the original spacing. Interesting that Atlas, Stewart, Kato, InterMountain, and most other products take Kadee's without problems. Must be an accident ?
I don't know why, but it seems to be to everyone's surprise that Athearn is not in step with the NMRA, as well as designing products that discourage use of Kadee couplers. BB, RTR, and GENESIS!.
ONLY excuse is one doesn't have a KD coupler gauge. Having one without using it is inexcusable. They're cheap, plus you're buying Athearn
BLUE BOX: Car's standard coupler pockets have a friction sprung botton that droops, and even falls off when coupling cars together too hard. SOLUTION: is to CUT OFF the molded-on coupler box with an XACTO blade and cement on a KD #5.
BB Engines have HOT chassis. Metal couplers must be insulated from the chassis. NO #4s. Consult Kadee's website for recommendations OR USE # 30'S.
RTR's: I have will take the #5 (or #40 series to clear the snowplow) - provided the lip has been removed from the top to allow seating.
GENESIS: units' coupler pockets need #20 series to fit, except the Highliner shelled 'F's which take #33's and #38'A' noses to preserve the original spacing.
Interesting that Atlas, Stewart, Kato, InterMountain, and most other products take Kadee's without problems. Must be an accident ?
Don,Are you serious? I and unknown thousands have no problems installing KD couplers on Athearn cars and engines.
Look closely at this picture and you will see NO drooping couplers.These are stock Athearn.Like any kit care must be taken while building these simple car kits.
CouldaKen.
LESTER is supposed to be in NYC. Have him sign your Git-tar as 'Rhubarb Red' - his early stage name -. It'll become collectors item. In the meantime, don't take up brain surgery.
You bought a bunch of leftovers - and expect to make a 9 course dinner out of it? Fire your Purchasing Agent.
I gather from the Supercharged engine and slot car test track you posted, that you like things that are 'fast'.
In Slot-car Racing the goal is to see how fast you can go without flipping. Model trains don't stay on the track when run too fast. Most trains today run at 45 to 55 MPH. 60mph is an 1 ft/per second in HO and 6" per in 'N'.
It just occurred to me that this alone could explain much of your problem. Just a guess.