Well, I finally had a fleeting look at the new MTH K4 at my LHS.......looks great, runs great (should use 16v, though), smoke lives up to MTH's reputation, sounds are like nothing I've ever heard in HO, etc.
If you're not into branding, this is one great little HO addition and certainly raises a few bars. It'll be interesting to see where MTH takes their HO line.
It was a fleeting look because it was the last one left at my LHS and went out the door.......he's sold out now.
Cheers,
Mike
The little bit I saw of slow running looked good......I'd expect that from MTH given that's one of their selling points for the O line.
You betcha'.
BTW, I also confirmed that these engines are still in stock at MTH.....so any LHS should be able to get them from MTH (if they're a dealer) or a supplier such as Walthers if they're not.
What could possibly make me think that MTHrules has a new name?????????????
The MR review gave it high marks in gneral and I noticed the slow speed was .5 miles per hour. Did you get to see it run slow?? I would like to know how smooth it ran at very slow speeds.
Reread the MR review; it was one of the most damning reviews they've published in over a decade. Top speed of 5 SMPH at 12 volts? Please; 12v has been the hobby standard since the 1950s, and MTH can't even get THAT right?
Performance was better on DCC and DCS, but so what? 99.9% of HO modelers do not use DCS, and only around 30% of HO modelers DO use DCC. MTH just wrote off fully 70% of the market.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
orsonroy wrote: The MR review gave it high marks in gneral and I noticed the slow speed was .5 miles per hour. Did you get to see it run slow?? I would like to know how smooth it ran at very slow speeds. Reread the MR review; it was one of the most damning reviews they've published in over a decade. Top speed of 5 SMPH at 12 volts? Please; 12v has been the hobby standard since the 1950s, and MTH can't even get THAT right? Performance was better on DCC and DCS, but so what? 99.9% of HO modelers do not use DCS, and only around 30% of HO modelers DO use DCC. MTH just wrote off fully 70% of the market.
Ray
I agree that it should run good on DC if the average buyer is going to purchase it and that is the reason I asked the question. It did not start up until 9Volts was reached. One of the forum reviews has said the MR was not correct in the top speed at 36mph with 16volts, but anything over 12 to 16 volts on HO DC is out of tolerance. MR stated in the review that the MTH manual indicated this model was to operate on up to 24Volts. Did anyone at MTH check the standard voltage for HO on DC?? I don't think so.
Most readers probably wrote off the DCS portion of the MR test and looked at the DC or DCC. Running the model on DC is a failure for sure, but they did not actually say it, but left it up to us to look at the results.
Most of us would not be able to use it with that limitations, but they did say it worked well when operated using DCC. They also printed the DCC results first, the DCS results second, and the DC results third. This order was probably done to pacify the advertising department.
gmfunk wrote: it was the last one left at my LHS and went out the door.......he's sold out now.
it was the last one left at my LHS and went out the door.......he's sold out now.
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
CAZEPHYR wrote: orsonroy wrote: The MR review gave it high marks in gneral and I noticed the slow speed was .5 miles per hour. Did you get to see it run slow?? I would like to know how smooth it ran at very slow speeds. Reread the MR review; it was one of the most damning reviews they've published in over a decade. Top speed of 5 SMPH at 12 volts? Please; 12v has been the hobby standard since the 1950s, and MTH can't even get THAT right? Performance was better on DCC and DCS, but so what? 99.9% of HO modelers do not use DCS, and only around 30% of HO modelers DO use DCC. MTH just wrote off fully 70% of the market. It should run good on DC if the average buyer is going to purchase it and that is the reason I asked the question. It did not start up until 9Volts was reached. One of the reviews has said the MR was not correct in the top speed at 36mph with 16volts. I thought MR gave it an OK on DCC. Most readers probably wrote off the DCS portion of the MR test and looked at the DC or DCC. Running the model on DC is a failure for sure, but the MR did not say anything like that.
It should run good on DC if the average buyer is going to purchase it and that is the reason I asked the question. It did not start up until 9Volts was reached. One of the reviews has said the MR was not correct in the top speed at 36mph with 16volts.
I thought MR gave it an OK on DCC. Most readers probably wrote off the DCS portion of the MR test and looked at the DC or DCC. Running the model on DC is a failure for sure, but the MR did not say anything like that.
MR stated this locomotive needed a lot of voltage (16 plus volts!) far more then any other locomotive on the market and the top speed was 35 smph..MR was also quick to notice that at 16 plus volts your other engines would needed upgrade to run on the much voltage..Also make sure your power pack can produce the voltage this engine requires.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
howmus wrote: The LHS had 1....... and SOLD it! Wow what great news!!!!!! Yawn.
The LHS had 1....... and SOLD it! Wow what great news!!!!!! Yawn.
Mr. or Ms. Howmus,
Me thinks you are out of line, certainly uninformed, or perhaps just generally ill-mannered. The LHS is question had several and they sold quickly. Perhaps there are those on this planet who don't subscribe to your narrow buying habits.
Regards,
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
WHYIZZAT all the posts supporting MTH sound like 'Shills'? - on the payroll?
LARRY, In no way are you a 'shill', but you bring up the need for MTH to have "16 volts" - if that's what it is?
1. Do YOU have a 16 volt power pak?
2. Would YOU buy a higher volage MTH power pak just to run your MTH engines?
3. Do you even have a MTH engine?
It seems to me MTH wants to sell a 'Competing DSC system, requiring a 24 volt MTH power pak; and/or licensing rights to everything. - Just an opinion based on their moves.
I hope I'm wrong.
Don Gibson wrote: WHYIZZAT all the posts supporting MTH sound like 'Shills'? - on the payroll?
In my case, I was real early in buying a CD player......back when the audiophiles were saying it was a piece of short-lived junk and that nothing would ever replace vinyl (sound familiar?).
So, when it comes to new technology in model railroading, I'm willing to expand my comfort zone.
But regardless of how you feel, isn't it great that there are a multitude of companies, etc. in the hobby that keep pushing the envelop......to the ultimate benefit of, well, us?
MidlandPacific wrote:Well, let's not forget that an MRC Power Command 9500, which is a better-than-average but still not out-of-sight power pack can deliver 20 volts of DC - so I think people may be making a bit much of the 16 volt business. The top speed may be a bit low, but for as long as I can remember the principal criticism of model engines has been that that lowest speed was too high, not that their highest speed was too low.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Don Gibson wrote: WHYIZZAT all the posts supporting MTH sound like 'Shills'? - on the payroll? LARRY, In no way are you a 'shill', but you bring up the need for MTH to have "16 volts" - if that's what it is? 1. Do YOU have a 16 volt power pak? 2. Would YOU buy a higher volage MTH power pak just to run your MTH engines? 3. Do you even have a MTH engine? It seems to me MTH wants to sell a 'Competing DSC system, requiring a 24 volt MTH power pak; and/or licensing rights to everything. - Just an opinion based on their moves. I hope I'm wrong.
Don,The only thing I know about the MTH K4 is based on MR's review by Jim Hediger..Here is a link to the review for you and all others to read.
http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=486
Well, OK. But take a look at the Tech 4 packs on the MRC webpage: the minimum power they give you is still 16 volts, and several of them give you 23 volts DC (the listings are from the manual, which is accessible at the Tech 4 page (http://www.modelrectifier.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=1298). So "high power" really isn't all that much higher (although I like the ammeter and voltmeter features, which are great for troubleshooting), and in a couple of cases is lower.
As I said before, I'm inclined to arch an eyebrow at the comments about the maximum speed. I don't know that I've ever seen an HO scale layout where 82 smph would be prototypical, anyway.
gmfunk wrote: Don Gibson wrote: WHYIZZAT all the posts supporting MTH sound like 'Shills'? - on the payroll? In my case, I was real early in buying a CD player......back when the audiophiles were saying it was a piece of short-lived junk and that nothing would ever replace vinyl (sound familiar?). Cheers, Mike
Mike:
I was in the Audio biz a number of years. Those 'Adiophiles' - then & now - think Tube amplifiers and vinyl recorded sound are the ultimate in sonic experience. They 'think' they can hear a differnce - listening through speakers that are loaded with harmonic and intermodulation distortion, and from mechanical grooves with restricted lows to keep them from crashing into each other. I never heard a truly low 'C' in 'Zarathrustra' (31cps) until I got my first CD player.
SONY had a superior video format to VHS. The market didn't care.I still have a seldom used BETA machine and PWM Analog to Digital. Where MTH ends up will be pure guesswork.
Re credentials: I might feel more comfortable had you filled out your profile. I always like to consider good sources.
DG
Not throw a monkey at this particular wrench, but this same problem exists with ALL the command control systems that provide speed control while in an analog mode including Lionels Odyssey system, MTH's PS2 system, the TAS EOB system and even the new Tsunami and Loksound DCC decoders. While the difference is more subtle with the DCC decoders, about 10-20 smph lost in analog mode when comparing equal command and analog track voltages, the same issue exists and the speed control setup isn't nearly as effective in these setups either. Both the Tsunami and Loksound decoders have noticeable speed sag under load using the analog speed control and my guess is that the MTH model won't have this problem (at least if it's anything like the O scale models I have).
To explain why this happens, remember the extra voltage is required to compensate the locomotive under load without the operator adding voltage manually using a power pack. So in other words, if a locomotive will go 20 smph at 10 volts under no load, 16 volts may be required for that same locomotive to go 20 smph up a 4% grade while pulling it's maximum weight in cars. The PS3 electronics have been developed to deal with this and maintain the locomotives speed regardless of load or grade conditions. My guess is that the folks at MTH thought it more important to offer a speed control system that actually works as advertised rather than the half baked attempts the DCC folks have given you...
Keep in mind while I have no direct experience with the PS3 system, I have years of experience with the PS2 system, and different types of transformers will affect they way the electronics work in very distinct ways. If you do a search in this forum, you will find an excellent customer review of the HO scale MTH K4. He reported having much higher speeds at lower voltages than the MR review did. My guess is that this is because the MR version was an early unit and may not have been tweaked for optimum performance yet, and the transformer MR was using was different than the one this customer was.
Now I'm going to climb up on my soapbox (deleted)
Jeff
MidlandPacific wrote: As I said before, I'm inclined to arch an eyebrow at the comments about the maximum speed. I don't know that I've ever seen an HO scale layout where 82 smph would be prototypical, anyway.
There are HO and N club layouts as well as individual modelers that own layouts with long stretches. The prototype Pennsylvania K4 as well as the EMD E-unit diesels regularly ran at 90+ mph.
At my club (Suncoast MRR Club) I run my E8 at 80 scale mph hauling SCL passenger trains on the long stretches and smoothly slow her down approaching curves.
For the money I expect top notch performance and while I wouldn't plan on hauling long trains with my locomotives at Metroliner speeds......I'd sure like to know that they are capable of it.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Gentlemen:
20 VA is not 20 volts. It's 12 volts @ 1.67 amps - if you believe the copywriters.
1. MRC's are 'UNREGULATED' supplys. The voltage drops as soon as a load is added.
2. MRC's Tech 4 260 spec's 23 volts and 1.8 amps - but not at the same time. That woul be 41.4 VA. With an AC transformer spec of 18.5 volts, 23 DC volts is pretty optimistic.That transformer out put is before encounting any rectification. Assuming a 18.5 V transformer, a a bridge rectifier alone drops this to approx. 17 volts. - before a load.
Don't believe me. Those of you with $10 multimeters should measure the rail voltage before and after putting a single engine on the track. You engineering types can better explain this.
.
ndbprr wrote:This should be fairly easy to corroborate. All Mr GMFUNK has to do is give us the name of the shop that has people beating down the door for them.
Don Gibson wrote: Re credentials: I might feel more comfortable had you filled out your profile. I always like to consider good sources. Regards, DG
Hmmmm.......credentials. Well, my first CD player was the Carver with the Digital Time Lens.....oops, wrong credentials!
Manager for a "major pharmaceutical company".........13 y/o son's soccer eats up all the extra money I make doing repairs (lots of PW Lionel and modern HO) for my LHS........not afraid of technology (bought a Prius a year ago just before the hurricanes....practically pays for itself hauling aforementioned son to travel soccer gigs)......old enough that I'm considered a senior citizen in some states......and I just bought a Nikon D200. My right testicle is slightly larger than my left......not sure what that's about but it's been like that for 30 years or so.
Got back into model railroading after a hiatus of about 40 years when my son hit 6 y/o......I like O gauge 'cuz I can SEE it but the advancements in HO are great and I love a lot of the craftsman building kits that are available.
And I hate foamers regardless of the brand they foam about!! They all remind me of Republicans!!!!
Gentlemen;
I've been one of MTH's most vocal critics regarding DCS since Andy Edleman's post almost two years ago. I still go out of my way to ensure that DCS isn't painted as being a superior replacement for DCC, with my opinions based on my experiences with the system in three rail O.
But I'm an HO modeler first and foremost, and when a new manufacturer of motive power comes along, particularily one that might eventually consider doing something I would like to buy (GN and NP steam, and MTH has done a couple of pieces in O), I like to stand back and see what they might offer.
What I see in the MTH HO K-4 are some nice things:
1. No tether. Most of my brass steam don't have tethers either, as I can fit the decoder in the boiler, but they don't have any sound either. I managed to break the deck plate between the tender and engine on my LifeLike USRA 0-8-0 just picking the darn thing up to take it to the workbench, because my fat fingers couldn't get the tender and tether loose while it was on the rails.
2. Great sound. MTH sound, even when operating conventional, is outstanding in O, and from the sound clips on the MR review, the HO stuff sounds pretty good too. Syncronized too, something my friends high dollar Soundtrax conversions are not (no cam used to syncronize it, so it works off of track voltage).
3. Reasonable price - same price point as BLI offerings.
4. Runs great in DCC. Since I run DCC, that is all I care about, the concerns about being able to go 90 MPH on straight DC don't matter to me. For that matter, since my RR is a 40 MPH max speed, all of my locomotives get their decoder speeds recurved for 40 MPH max, including the streamliners. Slower speeds make the railroad appear bigger,
So, I'll cut them some slack, and actually hope that their first foray into HO doesn't turn into an abysmal failure just because they picked the wrong engine to introduce their technology with. If that K-4 would have been something of interest to me, like a GN O-8 mikado, or NP W-3 or W-5 mikado, and a whole host of other GN and NP steam, I would have been all over this locomotive like white on rice, and a bunch of brass would have been heading for E-Bay.
I honestly don't understand why there is the mud slinging going on when people post something positive about this locomotive. If MTH offers competitive locomotives, with advanced technology, we all win. Calling people an MTH shill, or alluding to the return of our favorite troll just because somebody says something nice about the product is quite honestly assinine.
As far as the BLI ads, that was in poor taste, but considering the direction the ads were pointed, it was not unexpected. I'm not going to narrow my purchasing decisions based on those ads, if they make something I actually want to buy. Nothing from BLI has made it into my stable yet, but I may pop for the GN S-2 northerns (actually one of my least favorite GN locomotives).
regards,
Jerry Zeman
Jerry,As you know this isn't the first time BLI fell flat on their noses..You should know their record..
As far as DCC that's fine and dandy but,again BLI will lose out on the 70% of the modelers who are DC..Out of that 70% I suppose a sufficient number would have bought the K4.Shoot one can't even use BLI's Quantum Engineer with this engine..The Quantum Engineer gives the DC user the ability to use all of DCC sound and lights as you may already know.
Now..That's terrible any way one cares to look at it.
BTW..I like to run my trains at scale speed be it 20 mph or 70 mph just like the prototype.
JerryZeman wrote: Gentlemen; I've been one of MTH's most vocal critics regarding DCS since Andy Edleman's post almost two years ago. I still go out of my way to ensure that DCS isn't painted as being a superior replacement for DCC, with my opinions based on my experiences with the system in three rail O. But I'm an HO modeler first and foremost, and when a new manufacturer of motive power comes along, particularily one that might eventually consider doing something I would like to buy (GN and NP steam, and MTH has done a couple of pieces in O), I like to stand back and see what they might offer. What I see in the MTH HO K-4 are some nice things: 1. No tether. Most of my brass steam don't have tethers either, as I can fit the decoder in the boiler, but they don't have any sound either. I managed to break the deck plate between the tender and engine on my LifeLike USRA 0-8-0 just picking the darn thing up to take it to the workbench, because my fat fingers couldn't get the tender and tether loose while it was on the rails. 2. Great sound. MTH sound, even when operating conventional, is outstanding in O, and from the sound clips on the MR review, the HO stuff sounds pretty good too. Syncronized too, something my friends high dollar Soundtrax conversions are not (no cam used to syncronize it, so it works off of track voltage). 3. Reasonable price - same price point as BLI offerings. 4. Runs great in DCC. Since I run DCC, that is all I care about, the concerns about being able to go 90 MPH on straight DC don't matter to me. For that matter, since my RR is a 40 MPH max speed, all of my locomotives get their decoder speeds recurved for 40 MPH max, including the streamliners. Slower speeds make the railroad appear bigger, So, I'll cut them some slack, and actually hope that their first foray into HO doesn't turn into an abysmal failure just because they picked the wrong engine to introduce their technology with. If that K-4 would have been something of interest to me, like a GN O-8 mikado, or NP W-3 or W-5 mikado, and a whole host of other GN and NP steam, I would have been all over this locomotive like white on rice, and a bunch of brass would have been heading for E-Bay. I honestly don't understand why there is the mud slinging going on when people post something positive about this locomotive. If MTH offers competitive locomotives, with advanced technology, we all win. Calling people an MTH shill, or alluding to the return of our favorite troll just because somebody says something nice about the product is quite honestly assinine. As far as the BLI ads, that was in poor taste, but considering the direction the ads were pointed, it was not unexpected. I'm not going to narrow my purchasing decisions based on those ads, if they make something I actually want to buy. Nothing from BLI has made it into my stable yet, but I may pop for the GN S-2 northerns (actually one of my least favorite GN locomotives). regards, Jerry Zeman
I'm with you, Jerry. I have nothing in particular against MTH. I find them rather entertaining in an oblique sort of way due to the spluttering outrage that can be generated if anyone mentions MTH in a favorable light. The only real complaint I have is that they did a K-4 as their first offering. The only way they could have sinned more grieviously would be if they'd done a UP Challenger or Big Boy.
If Mike Wolf wants my business, he's going to have to produce at least one of the following:
1. SP SP-1/2/3 4-10-2 with the proper "stuttering" 6 chuff/rev exhaust.
2. Any SP 4-6-2, but especially a P-6 4-6-2 (Pacific Lines version) with 9,000 gal rectangular tender. Oh yeah, I mean SP 4-6-2's, not those second-hand POS's from the EP&SW.
3. SP F-3/4/5 2-10-2
4. SP TW-8 4-8-0.
5. SP C-8/9/10 2-8-0.
6. SP T-28 or T-31 4-6-0 with 69" replacement drivers on the T-31 to make a T-32 (I can dream, can't I?) version.
Oh well, at least PCM is doing a GS-4 and Athearn will be doing an MT-4.
Would it be too much to ask PCM to make the GS-4 skirts removable and have them do a de-skirted black version?
Andre
BRAKIE wrote: Jerry,As you know this isn't the first time BLI fell flat on their noses..You should know their record.. As far as DCC that's fine and dandy but,again BLI will lose out on the 70% of the modelers who are DC..Out of that 70% I suppose a sufficient number would have bought the K4.Shoot one can't even use BLI's Quantum Engineer with this engine..The Quantum Engineer gives the DC user the ability to use all of DCC sound and lights as you may already know. Now..That's terrible any way one cares to look at it. BTW..I like to run my trains at scale speed be it 20 mph or 70 mph just like the prototype.
I'm confused by this. Did you mean MTH?
Don Gibson wrote:Gentlemen: 20 VA is not 20 volts. It's 12 volts @ 1.67 amps - if you believe the copywriters. 1. MRC's are 'UNREGULATED' supplys. The voltage drops as soon as a load is added. 2. MRC's Tech 4 260 spec's 23 volts and 1.8 amps - but not at the same time. That woul be 41.4 VA. With an AC transformer spec of 18.5 volts, 23 DC volts is pretty optimistic.The transformer out put is before encounting any rectification. Assuming a 18.5 V transformer and a bridge rectifier alone drops this to approx. 17 volts. Don't believe me. Those of you with $10 multimeters should measure the rail voltage before and after putting a single engine on the track. You engineering types can better explain this.
2. MRC's Tech 4 260 spec's 23 volts and 1.8 amps - but not at the same time. That woul be 41.4 VA. With an AC transformer spec of 18.5 volts, 23 DC volts is pretty optimistic.The transformer out put is before encounting any rectification. Assuming a 18.5 V transformer and a bridge rectifier alone drops this to approx. 17 volts.