While its numbers have become severely constricted down through the years (once upon a time nearly half of all modelers own some brass items), brass is unlikely to go away completely any time soon. Brass ownership is largely about collecting, not operating and, as such, appeals to a specific type of individual/hobbyist, often in a situation where price is of little concern. While we are down to perhaps a couple of percent of all hobbyists still purchasing brass, their numbers aren't likely to decrease dramatically in the near future, nor prices restrict their purchases.
With regard to plastic/diecast taking the place of brass today, this is only perhaps a factor when it comes to the more basic design of diesel locomotives. Anyone who has ever owned a large, late model, quality, brass steamer knows that even the very best plastic reproductions don't even begin to approach that level of detailing. Model plastic/diecast HO steamers may be miles ahead of what was offered even a decade ago but they are still far behind brass. Likewise, you will never see the variety of road-specific steamers that brass has available in when it comes to the plastic market.
CNJ831
$1000 diesels keep demand pretty low
If dead means totally gone then no, but if it means very small then yes.
I think there are several factors at work here. Clearly any new brass is going to be a low quantity, very expensive item aimed mostly at collectors -- pity the poor slob who needs a batch of a certain brass engine just to stock his layout prototypically, because he is competing for the same engines with someone who intends never to remove it from its box
I remember the days when hobby shops would actually keep brass in stock just like Athearn blue boxes, and if, say, the Pacific Fast Mail Santa Fe 2-8-0 or Tenshodo USRA 0-8-0 was sold out, they'd just order more. They were considered "affordably high priced" at the time although today the prices seem laughable.
Because it is mostly going to be aimed at collectors, don't rule out the possibility that new brass might offer the same stuff -- PRR K4s, NYC Hudsons, etc -- that we can get in metal and plastic.
The other factor is that a very large generation of model railroaders, the guys who took up the hobby right after WWII and are now dying off or retiring or downsizing (parents of boomers and older boomers) bought brass in the 1950s to the 1980s and those collections are increasingly being offered for sale. Berk-fan alluded to used brass -- there is a lot of it out there. If what you want is a brass engine just for prestige purposes, it can be had and not for all that much money in the bigger scheme of things. I would not be surprised if part of the problem of the new brass market is the same thing that record stores started experiencing a few years afer compact discs became popular -- that the sale of cheaper used CDs (read: brass) has an appreciable impact on the market for new stuff.
My third point, and this is pure speculation, is that nobody seems to be trying what worked so well in the 1970s. That is, when Japan became a true developed country with a high standard of living, you could no longer get "cheap" handmade items made there, so the brass market moved to Korea. Now Korea has been developed into a mature market economy so once again, to expect Koreans to handbuild a brass engine means you are paying fine art prices, not "adult toy" prices, for the results.
So where should the brass folks go next? Not China; that is a true factory based economy now. It amazes me that nobody has tried Vietnam. There is a tradition of metal work there not unlike Korea's. Labor would be relatively cheap for a while. There is normal travel and shipping. Well it is just a thought.
Dave Nelson
Something that is missing in this discussion is that there are also a few of us who, instead of collecting brass locos, build them instead. In that regard, brass is very much alive.
Dr.G
markpierce wrote:The consensus of my table at the Southern Pacific and Historical Society annual convention dinner last week was that HO models in brass is dead, replaced by cast metal/plastic models. I was the only one objecting to this conclusion. Beyond the endless GS's (4-8-4s) and AC's (4-8-8-2s) , and the possible forthcoming of Athearn Mts (4-8-2s), what does the non-brass market offer? Where are the 0-6-0s, the Mogs (2-6-0s), the Hogs (2-8-0s), the Mikes (2-8-2s), the Decks (2-8-2s), and how about those whaleback tenders? Brass will be the only source for many prototypes in my lifetime.
The new brass market has slowed down to the point many consider it dead, but brass will continue to be made in small production runs at a very high cost per unit. The high prices do effectively end the purchasing of brass models for more than ninety-five percent or of all modelers, but a few collectors will continue to purchase the choice models.
The prices have not slowed the used brass market as much as the new brass imports, but the used and extremely rare items have increased since they are in demand more than the new brass models. The market is slower now since many buyers have been eliminated by the high prices.
The die cast metal and plastic models have sold well and slowed the sales of models made in brass. For the last fifty years and up to five years ago, brass was the only way to get most of the highly detailed steam models. By all accounts of recent announcements, the die cast metal and plastic models will probably continue to expand their sales causing brass importers to be even more cautious with new products.
My personal choice is to keep the models I have and enjoy them for the quality of fine detail and fidelity. Things change and we go on.
dknelson wrote: My third point, and this is pure speculation, is that nobody seems to be trying what worked so well in the 1970s. That is, when Japan became a true developed country with a high standard of living, you could no longer get "cheap" handmade items made there, so the brass market moved to Korea. Now Korea has been developed into a mature market economy so once again, to expect Koreans to handbuild a brass engine means you are paying fine art prices, not "adult toy" prices, for the results. So where should the brass folks go next? Not China; that is a true factory based economy now. It amazes me that nobody has tried Vietnam. There is a tradition of metal work there not unlike Korea's. Labor would be relatively cheap for a while. There is normal travel and shipping. Well it is just a thought.
Actually, Dave, if you think back carefully, you may recall that when the importers shifted from Japan to Korea, it took some years to get a consistant and quality product out of them. There were at lot of duds and mediocre workmanship from the Koreans, early on.
And...there was indeed an attempt to switch to China by some importers in more recent years, also with some questionable results. Although the Chinese seem to have done very well in the plastics market (where the items are mainly injection molded), the ability to produce small numbers of very high quality handmade models consistantly, seems to take time to establish. With the very limited brass market today, I'd be surprised to see any further shifting of production from country to country, considering the remaining buyers appear quite willing to pay the high prices demanded today.
I don't know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don't think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I'm not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn't do it.
I can't speak for U.S. prototype pure HO modelers, but in HOj, Japanese prototype, if I don't run brass, I don't run steam (or much of anything else!) Even the D50 class 2-8-2's with cast metal frames have brass superstructures. Also, my brass models are definitely not being maintained as a collection of unpainted in the original box items. Most of the boxes have long since disappeared. Many of the locos have been modified in subtle (or not so subtle) ways to make them more closely resemble specific locos I've photographed, or to operate more dependably.
(How many people remember when Linn Westcott, speaking of 1960's brass, redefined RTR as, "Ready to rework?")
Both the TTT and the JNR Nichigeki-Sen are intended to be operating railroads, not display tables. That means that I want things to appear as they would have in 1964. One notable encounter with a "brass collector" involved the modifications I made to TTT #42, Baldwin 0-8-0T, class of '97 (originally JGR class 4020.) In line with what was done by their prototype owners to locos of similar vintage that survived past the Pacific War, I've equipped it with Westinghouse air brakes (one-lung compressor, air tanks and highly visible piping) and a turbogenerator. It also has a grimy black finish - rather more grimy than black - and a reworked electrical pickup system that increases its reliability by about 1000%. This chap told me in no uncertain terms that those modifications "ruined" its value as a collectible to him. I replied, with equal emphasis, that I had purchased the KIT in Japan in the 1960's to provide motive power for model coal trains, not as a convenience for 21st century brass collectors.
Operations forever. Collectors can stick to stamps - and vice versa.
Chuck
I'm a psgr train freak and the availability of prototypically specific equipment as opposed to generics differing only in paint was the big attraction brass had for me. Sometimes I could "mix 'n match" as w/ my Panama Lmtd where I used a Soho bag/dorm and observation w/ Railway Classics diner and sleeper lounge (which 2 cars cost more than the rest of the train including engine) and Walthers sleepers for the other 8 cars.
One problem I have w/ brass psgr cars is they have "too much" detailing. Getting every valve and pipe fiting on the underbody where it's invisible and frequently interferes w/ operation seems counter productive to me
The straw that broke this camel's back was getting 16 brass cars that are admitedly things of beauty for my Empire Builderand then having to disassemble every truck and change the back to back dimension on the wheels from min (and sometimes less) to max because they shorted out on my Shinohara double slip switches which had min flangeways. Then, when things were finally running right, Walthers anounces an Empire Builder that will probably cost less for the whole train than 2 of the brass cars.
csmith9474 wrote:I model primarily passenger equipment, and there are a lot of cars only available in brass. Companies such as The Coach Yard and Overland seem to be doing very well. With companies such as Samhongsa and Ajin building their brass models, you just can't beat the quality.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
CAZEPHYR wrote: csmith9474 wrote:I model primarily passenger equipment, and there are a lot of cars only available in brass. Companies such as The Coach Yard and Overland seem to be doing very well. With companies such as Samhongsa and Ajin building their brass models, you just can't beat the quality. In general, most of would agree that brass cars are super and I have continued to purchase certain cars which have not been available in plastic. I purchased two complete trains for the Santa Fe Hi level and the Super Chief cars, which took almost ten years since the individual prices are very high. When the Coach Yard Pleasure dome came in two years ago, I received my dome and started looking at it and then compared it to the Walthers Pleasure Dome. It is the last time I would purchase the brass version as the Walthers dome is better in fidelity and has a more accurate interior. I did have to install tinted glass in the Walthers car, but I could have purchased nine plastic domes cars for the single brass dome car price. The quality and price of the latest passengers cars like the Walthers and BLI will certainly hurt future brass sales. Walthers has announced the Empire Builder train and PCM has announced the Daylight train and I expect many more specific trains and locomotives to be available to all of us.
In general, most of would agree that brass cars are super and I have continued to purchase certain cars which have not been available in plastic. I purchased two complete trains for the Santa Fe Hi level and the Super Chief cars, which took almost ten years since the individual prices are very high. When the Coach Yard Pleasure dome came in two years ago, I received my dome and started looking at it and then compared it to the Walthers Pleasure Dome. It is the last time I would purchase the brass version as the Walthers dome is better in fidelity and has a more accurate interior. I did have to install tinted glass in the Walthers car, but I could have purchased nine plastic domes cars for the single brass dome car price.
The quality and price of the latest passengers cars like the Walthers and BLI will certainly hurt future brass sales. Walthers has announced the Empire Builder train and PCM has announced the Daylight train and I expect many more specific trains and locomotives to be available to all of us.
I have recently rec'd my Overland Models ATSF 60 Full Dome and I'm very impressed w/the model. I shelled out 430.00 w/shipping included and will in all likelyhood be my last purchase of brass cars save for the NP Budd diner which is necessary for my BN/BNSF business fleet. I have seen Coach Yards Pleasure dome and didn't notice anything incorrect w/the model. With Walthers producing the Empire builder, I will be able to add a Pass sleeper and the two coaches one of which was converted to the Lounge car Como/Mountain View and w/Rapido I'll be able to get the sleeper to use as the BN crew sleeper Stevens Pass. Now, if Walthers would only "Plate" their Budd/PSCM fluted cars like BLI did.
Ch
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
GearDrivenSteam wrote: I don't know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don't think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I'm not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn't do it.
Yes, but the plastic models are not railroad/car/locomotive specific. They are merely generics. Further, most common locomotives are NEVER modeled. As for SP locomotives, please give me a break from the ACs and GSs. How about the more common Hogs, Mogs, and Decks? I'd buy'm, if they'd make'm. Meantime, I'll buy the brass, even though I'd prefer the affordability and mechanically reliable of plastic/die-cast metal models. (Now offer me some MM-3s.)
Mark
CAZEPHYR wrote: The new brass market has slowed down to the point many consider it dead, but brass will continue to be made in small production runs at a very high cost per unit. The high prices do effectively end the purchasing of brass models for more than ninety-five percent or of all modelers, but a few collectors will continue to purchase the choice models. The prices have not slowed the used brass market as much as the new brass imports, but the used and extremely rare items have increased since they are in demand more than the new brass models. The market is slower now since many buyers have been eliminated by the high prices.
I've noticed that used brass prices on eBay have begun to fall in many cases, markedly in the past 6 months. I'll use an "indicator" engine (Denver & Salt Lake 2-6-6-0) as an example, as its an engine I love and always watch the auctions, but just don't have any justification in owning.
PFM/United did five runs of these (69-78). Three years ago a good unpainted mid run example would be traded on eBay for $600, now its down to under $450.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
cjcrescent wrote: csmith9474 wrote:I model primarily passenger equipment, and there are a lot of cars only available in brass. Companies such as The Coach Yard and Overland seem to be doing very well. With companies such as Samhongsa and Ajin building their brass models, you just can't beat the quality.Samhongsa closed down their model railroad shop, last year (or the year before). Unfortunately, there are no plans to reopen it.
My mistake. I got them confused with Sam Model Tech. Samhongsa closed in 2004. The Sam Tech stuff is just as good as Samhongsa.
boxcar_jim wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: The new brass market has slowed down to the point many consider it dead, but brass will continue to be made in small production runs at a very high cost per unit. The high prices do effectively end the purchasing of brass models for more than ninety-five percent or of all modelers, but a few collectors will continue to purchase the choice models. The prices have not slowed the used brass market as much as the new brass imports, but the used and extremely rare items have increased since they are in demand more than the new brass models. The market is slower now since many buyers have been eliminated by the high prices. I've noticed that used brass prices on eBay have begun to fall in many cases, markedly in the past 6 months. I'll use an "indicator" engine (Denver & Salt Lake 2-6-6-0) as an example, as its an engine I love and always watch the auctions, but just don't have any justification in owning. PFM/United did five runs of these (69-78). Three years ago a good unpainted mid run example would be traded on eBay for $600, now its down to under $450.
I watch Ebay also and many used prices have eased a bit, but it could due to less people are actually biding and that lowers the price. The older Tenshodo Crowns have come down also, but I noticed most of the W&R limited run models go up in price. Collectors are still out there and buy what they want. Also the Challenger PRR S1 model is bringing upwards of two thousand everytime one come on the block.
The market will never be what is was during the 1980 to 2000 era, but some models will only be available in brass. I also noticed that Ebay is way down in total items under HO brass in recent days.
First of all, I wish that we could just Deep-Six that tiresome Old Wive's Tale about Brass being only for a certain group of Up-scale wealthy "Collectors" that just take them out of the box and stare at them for five minutes a year, or being afraid to run brass because it might just become suddenly suicidal and decide to drop on the floor. There's plenty of used brass out there and you might be surprised at the relatively reasonable prices for it. It's how I acquired my 'collection' of working, running, hauling steam locos.
90% of my steam collection is brass, and it's because I model two railroads--Rio Grande and Southern Pacific--whose general steam roster is just not available in plastic (and don't tell me about SP Cab-forwards and GS-4's, I'm not talking about them). And I RUN the brass. And I'm not worried about it suddenly doing a Harikari leap onto the floor, even though I've got floor to ceiling canyons, because I have made sure that my trackwork is solid and secure. I don't buy these locos to look at, I buy them to RUN!
Brass is and always has been a SPECIALTY item. Models of locomotives that the general manufacturers don't produce because they're not sure that they'll sell. Ergo, according to the manufacurers, USRA sells, Pennsy sells, UP sells and N&W sells. Ergo, according to the manufacturers, Rio Grande steam doesn't sell, neither does SP steam, or Frisco or MoPac or Burlington or GN or a long list of other railroads, because their locomotives don't LOOK like "everything else." They're not Generic, nor are they easily adaptable from generic models. Ergo: You want a Rio Grande M-78 Mountain? You look for a used brass Key or Sunset or maybe an affordable PFM, you don't go Spectrum hoping to convert. You want an SP 'Deck' 2-10-2? Try used Balboa brass, a Proto Heavy USRA isn't going to do it. I just tried a conversion of a Bachmann USRA Heavy 4-8-2 into an SP MT-2. Know what it looks like? Well, after all that work and those neat PSC castings, it looks like a USRA Mountain with an Elesco feedwater heater and some very high domes. But it DOESN'T look like an MT-2! The MT-2 was a SPECIFIC locomotive, had specific details. It wasn't a USRA, doesn't convert from a USRA. To get a model of an MT-2, I'll have to search around and hope that somebody in brass once put it out. And maybe, if I want the model BAD enough (which I'd like), pay premium price to get a loco that nobody else except a die-hard SP fan ever heard of. And don't even try to convince me that the new Proto Plastic USRA Heavy 2-10-2 will convert into a Rio Grande F-81. There's no way, guy!
I don't think brass will go away, but it is always going to remain a small portion of the hobby. And yes, it's going to continue to be expensive. But if you're modeling a specific railroad and need a specific locomotive, you're going to have to save up your sheckels and INVEST, new or used. And you just might be able to find used brass that is sometimes a lot cheaper than getting that Generic plastic loco you're thinking of settling on "if only you can just do a little conversion". As far as new brass, I just bought my first several months ago,after years of second-hand locos, and I was appalled at the price, but it was a locomotive that I wanted (a PSC F-81 Rio Grande 2-10-2), and when I got it, I realized that every penny I'd saved for that loco was worth it. EVERY penny! Oh, yah, it runs like a Swiss watch. All of my brass runs like Swiss watches, it's because BEING brass, I do a lot of tinkering and TLC on them. That's part of the price of brass--they run beautifully if you take the time and care to make sure they stay that way. Swiss watches take some extra care, too--that's why you paid the price.
So pardon me while my used brass Key Rio Grande 2-8-2, hauling a 20 car freight up a 2% grade waltzes past your Proto 2000 plastic Berkshire that's spinning its wheels on the siding with two gondolas, four reefers and a caboose.
So hang in there, MarkPierce, I don't forsee an SP whaleback tender in plastic, but if you really want one, you'll find a used brass one that will track like a champ. We're BOTH in the same boat, and it hasn't sprung a leak, yet, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I would love to post a pic of one of my brassies (the others are packed, as I am about to move cross-country), but I am not that savvy at posting online. Any help for anyone in that arena would greatly appreciated.
Ok...never mind the last post.... Here's a pic of one of my two Pacifics. No railname on it yet, but it's part of a fictional layout based on the Pacific Northwest between Seattle and Prince Rupert, BC.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Dick--of the current importers of brass steamers, I think that PSC is putting out absolutely terrific models. The only thing they lack is sound. However, they release locomotives very carefully and in limited numbers. I've heard mixed reviews of Overland Brass, but since they put out mainly diesels, I've never dealt with them.
My advice to you is to check for used brass, if you're looking for a specific locomotive. I've had very good luck with Sunset, Key, most PFM and the older Akanes. The older Akanes do lack the detail of current brass, but their mechanism is rock-solid. Balboa put out a good-quality brass loco, especially if you're interested in SP prototypes. Custom Brass put out some beautifully detailed locos, but they were underpowered and underweighted, at least in my opinion. The several I have in my collection have had a lot of work done on them for both weight and power.
There are a number of hobby shops in the US that carry a fine selection of used brass at pretty reasonable prices. I'd suggest Caboose Hobbies in Denver, and Peach Creek Shops in Laurel, MD. Also, Googling up "HO Scale Brass Locomotives" will get you a whole truck-load of hobby shops that carry a good selection of used brass.
Just remember, though, that most brass steamers are railroad specific, not generic. But there's a lot of neat stuff out there just waiting to be adopted, LOL!
I've followed this discussion with considera ble interest. I'm a niche collector in that I love to buy distressed brass, engines that have been abused and/or neglected and ended up almost as a junk item.
It is just tremendous fun to take these engines apart, overhaul them, reassemble them and put a custom coat of paint and decals on them and finally, a heavy coat of weathering. You can do that because they are out of the collector's orbit now so no need to preserve "market value". And how some of these older Japanese brass babies run! I put them oOn my club's modular layout and just gallop along, passing up all the BLI and Precisioncraft bplugs that can't get out of their tracks because of the amp draw on the sound systems and decoders. It's a great thrill to put a "dead" brass engine back in service, kind of like raising Lazrus up from his tomb. ( Eexcuse the typos. This new format doesn't want to accept editing! )
twhite wrote:First of all, I wish that we could just Deep-Six that tiresome Old Wive's Tale about Brass being only for a certain group of Up-scale wealthy "Collectors" that just take them out of the box and stare at them for five minutes a year, or being afraid to run brass because it might just become suddenly suicidal and decide to drop on the floor. There's plenty of used brass out there and you might be surprised at the relatively reasonable prices for it. It's how I acquired my 'collection' of working, running, hauling steam locos. ... And I RUN the brass. And I'm not worried about it suddenly doing a Harikari leap onto the floor, even though I've got floor to ceiling canyons, because I have made sure that my trackwork is solid and secure. I don't buy these locos to look at, I buy them to RUN!...Oh, yah, it runs like a Swiss watch. All of my brass runs like Swiss watches, it's because BEING brass, I do a lot of tinkering and TLC on them. That's part of the price of brass--they run beautifully if you take the time and care to make sure they stay that way. Swiss watches take some extra care, too--that's why you paid the price. So pardon me while my used brass Key Rio Grande 2-8-2, hauling a 20 car freight up a 2% grade waltzes past your Proto 2000 plastic Berkshire that's spinning its wheels on the siding with two gondolas, four reefers and a caboose. Tom
... And I RUN the brass. And I'm not worried about it suddenly doing a Harikari leap onto the floor, even though I've got floor to ceiling canyons, because I have made sure that my trackwork is solid and secure. I don't buy these locos to look at, I buy them to RUN!
...Oh, yah, it runs like a Swiss watch. All of my brass runs like Swiss watches, it's because BEING brass, I do a lot of tinkering and TLC on them. That's part of the price of brass--they run beautifully if you take the time and care to make sure they stay that way. Swiss watches take some extra care, too--that's why you paid the price.