Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Another Garden Railway in MR. Locked

5915 views
85 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    April 2001
  • From: US
  • 3,150 posts
Posted by CNJ831 on Sunday, August 6, 2006 7:58 AM

Fifty years ago the editors of MR wisely bannished 0-gauge tinplate/hi-rail from the pages of the magazine, clearly asserting in an editorial that in their view this was just playing with toy trains and not serious model railroading. Mis-named "G scale", which is not a scale at all but a hodge-podge of toys, highly caricaturish items, and (only recently) some semi-scale/scale equipment (but often which scale?), typically employed as an outdoor garden display, would surely have also been left out in the cold by the far wiser former editors of MR, had it existed back then.

I, for one, feel I am paying good money for my annual subscription to MR, long having considered it as a serious modeling magazine. At the same time, I've noted that the worthwhile scale modeling content there-in has been steadily decreasing for some years, such that one is now lucky to find 2 or 3 even mildly instructive articles among all the fluff, per issue. As a serious model railroader I do not wish to pay for, nor see, valuable space usurped by articles that have no honest relevance to scale modeling in a magazine that is 1/2 the size (page count) it was 15 years ago. If one has an interest in tinplate or garden railroading, both these areas have magazines devoted totally to them and that is where the material should stay. I've been on the edge of dropping my subscription to MR the last year or two, as 50,000+ former readers have done already, because of its increasing failure to carry serious modeling content. Throw in a couple more non-relevant or garden railroading pieces and I'm gone too.

CNJ831

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Sunday, August 6, 2006 7:26 AM
devils wrote:

"There are the 'finished' layouts we aspire to like the Franklin and South Manchester..."

Inspired by the FS&M? Speak for yourself. That's the last layout I'd choose to be inspired by.

Cheers,

Mark.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Sunday, August 6, 2006 7:19 AM

MTCarpenter wrote:

"Everything - every word, add, article, and image in every issue of MR is relevant to you? Every single little bit?"

I expect all of the editorial content to be relevant to me. Don't you?

Mark.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 6, 2006 6:02 AM

 marknewton wrote:
But there's the rub - G "scale" isn't a scale at all, is it? And the typical garden layout isn't, and will never be, a model railroad, no matter how much you might like to argue otherwise. Mark.

As a long term HO fine scale modeler, and therefore a stickler for details, I must point out that G isn’t a scale or a gauge, it is a loosely defined term for large scale model railroads. The track is generally #1 gauge, but several scales are used. By definition a Model is "A)to shape or fashion in a plastic material. B) to produce a representation or simulation of C)miniature representation of something." quoted from merriam webster collegiate dictionary 10th ed. A railroad is.... if I need to explain what a railroad is on here to you, quit reading. So your point is wrong, no argument required, look it up in Websters. Now if you were trying to say that some, G modelers don't fit your standard of scale modeling, you may have a point from your point of view. I will make a counter point: I dare you to respond to! Take a picture of your layout and post it against Marty Cozads (if you say he is the exception I will get many other photos of many other outdoor railroads for you) and request which photo looks like a photo of a real railroad. I doubt you would win. But please try me, I would love the contest.

Secondly,

......

 marknewton wrote:
When I'm paying the full price for the magazine, I expect *all* of the content to be relevant to me.  ...... Cheers, Mark.

IF ALL that is in MR is relevant to you, except for the garden railroad stuff, you must have a very interesting layout which involves many scales, eras, operation styles, conflicting operating systems, and is a model of the entire railroad system of North America. If you have all that, we all -in each and every railroad magazine Kalambach makes! -need to see that layout! No mater what scale/gauge/location you model.

Just in case you have not got it thru your thick head yet, I model in 2 scales. I am a member of both the local HO & G clubs. I am a stickler in every gauge I model. No mater how you respond to me about "something wrong with G", I can do the same about any other gauge, as I know faults about all.

Finally,

I assume you use prototypically correct radius, exactly how many scale miles is your railyard long, or how many scale miles do you have between towns? This problem is with all gauges/scales. If you don't have all this correct, you are making a scale error! If you DO have all this correct, I believe you would be the first RR modeler in history to do so, once again worthy of every mag. Some model railroads have more errors than others, but who are you to judge?

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Nebraska City, NE
  • 1,223 posts
Posted by Marty Cozad on Saturday, August 5, 2006 1:05 PM
I once had a guy tell me at a train show , while looking at my scrapbook say," I always thought garenrailroaders was people who ran trains in a sand box with Tonka trucks and playschool people".
That does NOT seem to be true .......
Mostly you have to look at folks back grounds. Many toy train collectors get into large scale because they are used to the size and price. But they build their RRs more like toy trains. which is fine.
Others are from indoor "modeling" and had done all that there was to do and simply wanted a new challenge in the hobby.
 (which was me).
It is good for MR to share the different aspects of the hobby because it is the main magizine and all other seem to branch off from it.
I still have 4 large boxes of old MRs that in winter i go through looking for ideas.

Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?

Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Redding, California
  • 1,428 posts
Posted by Train 284 on Saturday, August 5, 2006 9:12 AM
 marknewton wrote:
"So stop acting like 3 year olds and get on with life." Telling people to get a life because you can't sustain your argument is acting like a 3 year-old...


OK, I never told people to get a life, I said get on with life! Big difference geez! Don't twist my words!

OK, I am calmed down. I am not going to go on. I need to go outside and run trains now! ; )
Matt Cool Espee Forever! Modeling the Modoc Northern Railroad in HO scale Brakeman/Conductor/Fireman on the Yreka Western Railroad Member of Rouge Valley Model RR Club
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Salisbury, England
  • 420 posts
Posted by devils on Saturday, August 5, 2006 2:43 AM
There are the 'finished' layouts we aspire to like the Franklin and South Manchester and the V&O in the smaller scales and those in the larger scales like Marty Cozad's  and Jack Verducci's garden lines. Both these 'G' scale lines feature detail I would class as scale modelling. Tony Koester's indoor layout in G last year didn't seem to upset anyone so that would suggest the size isn't a problem.
The rest of us are still aspiring to these levels which means we are constantly improving our layouts which is what MR is for, to provide inspiration. Look at the article layout as a work in progress, like the evolution of the V&O and AM that we followed in MR for years.
Paul
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 5, 2006 1:36 AM
 Marty Cozad wrote:
I can see Rogers point.
 And there has been alot of other good points.
 Maybe the editor of MR has been getting request for a verity of model RRing articals
.Personally I don't think most indoor modelers think of GRRers as ,"modelers"
I know I never used to.

But I look at myself as an outdoor model railroader, I scratchbuild, photograph, design and even once and awhile have fun with trains.

Someday I'd love to share some ,,"modeling" tips in MR.. someday it maybe helpful to all scale modelers.

Like my model???



Marty,  I love your work.

Is your stuff 1:29?  Awesome stuff.

I like seeing some large scale stuff in MR.  It got me thinking about going outside myself.
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: California & Maine
  • 3,848 posts
Posted by andrechapelon on Friday, August 4, 2006 10:27 PM
 mgilger wrote:

Try it, you will like it......

There is nothing wrong with GR in MR. Both deal with the same hobby, only one is a larger scale than the other. Some have both scales. 

Myself, I like both 'N' and 'G', but model in 'G' because I do not have room in the house for either. I have plenty of room outside, so I model outside.

Having fun with 'G' scale.

Mark

You don't understand. The scale Puritans can't stand those of us who appreciate what they consider to be toy trains even if we also appreciate fine scale modeling. IOW, anything other than pure scale is  heresy and you will be ex-communicated from the ranks of model railroaders if you own, operate, admit to admiring, or just plain let it slip that you like something that's not absolutely true scale.

I own some 3 rail O gauge. I bought the items as a means of introducing my grandkids to model railroading (that's my story and I'm sticking it to it Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]), but I find I like running the things just for the pure fun of it. It certainly doesn't hurt that running trains causes the eyes of my two granddaughters (5 and 2) to light up.

I forget who it was who said that a Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that someone somewhere is actually having fun (at least in an unapproved manner).

For many years, MR had the blurb "Model Railroading Is Fun" on the cover. Maybe they should re-instate it.

Andre

P.S. For the life of me I don't know why, but the first thing that came to mind when I encountered this thread was the character of Antonio Salieri in "Amadeus".

 

 

 

It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Nebraska City, NE
  • 1,223 posts
Posted by Marty Cozad on Friday, August 4, 2006 9:28 PM
Sometimes molehills are called mountains in "N" scale.
 Is it N scale, or N gauge??? OR out-of-gauge????

Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?

Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Tacoma, WA
  • 847 posts
Posted by ShadowNix on Friday, August 4, 2006 6:45 PM

Can't we all just get along?  Seriously, I don't see the problem.  Not to sound stupid, but scale is exactly that.... SCALE.  I  have often taken ideas from O-scale scenes/structures/engines and applied it to my HO stuff.... called extrapolation.  I do this at work, since the number of pediatric ICU articles is MUCH less than adult ICU medicine.  But you just have to select what you read and how you apply it... just like in model railroading.  So anyways, lets not make a mountain out of a molehill, here...

Brian

"That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Near Akron Ohio
  • 163 posts
Posted by mgilger on Friday, August 4, 2006 6:37 PM

Try it, you will like it......

There is nothing wrong with GR in MR. Both deal with the same hobby, only one is a larger scale than the other. Some have both scales. 

Myself, I like both 'N' and 'G', but model in 'G' because I do not have room in the house for either. I have plenty of room outside, so I model outside.

Having fun with 'G' scale.

Mark

 

M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G web

Web Site: http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Nebraska City, NE
  • 1,223 posts
Posted by Marty Cozad on Friday, August 4, 2006 4:54 PM
I can see Rogers point.
 And there has been alot of other good points.
 Maybe the editor of MR has been getting request for a verity of model RRing articals
.Personally I don't think most indoor modelers think of GRRers as ,"modelers"
I know I never used to.

But I look at myself as an outdoor model railroader, I scratchbuild, photograph, design and even once and awhile have fun with trains.

Someday I'd love to share some ,,"modeling" tips in MR.. someday it maybe helpful to all scale modelers.

Like my model???

Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?

Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Dallas, GA
  • 2,643 posts
Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, August 4, 2006 3:05 PM

 Milwhiawatha wrote:
I actually agree with rogertra. Ok I am sorry to say this garden railroading has its own magazine why should it eat up valuable Model Railroad space which should only feature HO, N Z, S, and O scale. I say Kalmbach should do scale specific magazines such as HO only or N scale only, etc. I mean if Garden Railroad (G scale) whynot tr others. I myself heave been toying with the notion  of making an HO only magazine but lack funds to do so.

I don't understand why Model Railroader should only feature HO, N, Z, S, and O...When those who run G gauge are model railroaders as well. Garden railroading is another sense of model railroading. Same principle, same reasons to model...Just outside. G scale has every right to be included within Model Railroader.

 

Like some others here. I enjoy the occasional garden layout in Model Railroader. It is a break away from all the HO and N scale layouts featured, and a major change from the repeat layouts that we see.

Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Texas
  • 182 posts
Posted by MTCarpenter on Friday, August 4, 2006 2:53 PM
 marknewton wrote:
...I expect *all* of the content to be relevant to me.


Everything - every word, add, article, and image in every issue of MR is relevant to you?  Every single little bit?
"Measurement is the way created things have of accounting for themselves." ~ A.W. Tozer
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 4, 2006 12:24 PM
 vsmith wrote:
........................................
I didnt know Model Railroading was exclusive to HO or N, maybe the mag should be changed to "HO or N Only Model Railroader" ???


Mr. Smith,

Rather than change the title of MR, how would concentrating on the Model aspect in the title sound? That would very quickly sort things out, provided MR would have a basic level e.g. that of the beginner's project layouts! In large scale many items use the term "model", many of them will not pass the model test .

Best regards

ER
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Friday, August 4, 2006 10:45 AM
Why the fixation on HO scale? Neither Roger nor I mentioned it.

FWIW, I regard *any* scale models and railroads as being appropriate for inclusion in MR - Z, N, TT, HO, S, O, and so on. But there's the rub - G "scale" isn't a scale at all, is it? And the typical garden layout isn't, and will never be, a model railroad, no matter how much you might like to argue otherwise.

Mark.
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 1,414 posts
Posted by Guilford Guy on Friday, August 4, 2006 10:27 AM
Just because its G doesn't meen its not a model railroader
Any Garden Railroad can be a model railroad but not any model railroad can be a garden Railroad
G scale can be just as much a model railroad as HO
personally mike I think it was a great RR
Garden or model, whatever you'd like to call it <img src="/trccs/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile [:)]" />

Alex

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 4, 2006 10:21 AM
Even though I model HO scale indoors, I see no problem with this article.  If my Garden was big enough I'd have a Garden Railway myself.  I agree with the positive comments previous.  It's Model Railroader magazine, not HO Model Railroader Magazine.  So if ya don't like it don't read it.  I personally enjoyed it.

Trevor
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Friday, August 4, 2006 10:09 AM
Train 284 wrote:

"Some of you guys are mad because a GRR was featured in MR? Oh God call the army! Get over it guys c'mon! I know I am speaking as a garden railroader, but if you don't like it don't read it!"

Telling me "if you don't like it don't read it" is simply an unthinking cop-out. When I'm paying the full price for the magazine, I expect *all* of the content to be relevant to me. Or are you claiming that you'd be happy to overlook irrelevant, non-GRR content in Garden Railways, even though you're paying for it?

"And I am sure that if the person who did write-up the article and took the photos, and the owner of the railroad saw the complaints, how do you think they feel,since they took all that time to do it."

How they feel is not my responsibility. I buy the magazine so that I may be informed. I don't buy it to make the contributors feel good about themselves. If you present your work in the public domain, you should prepare yourself for the possibility of criticism.

"So stop acting like 3 year olds and get on with life."

Telling people to get a life because you can't sustain your argument is acting like a 3 year-old...

"Well what if a model railroad was featured in Garden Railways?" I say great! I would love to read the article because *I am open to new ideas*. Something maybe some of you should consider.

I'm also open to new ideas. But nothing in the article mentioned is in any way relevant or useful to me - something you should consider.

Cheers,

Mark.

  • Member since
    May 2001
  • From: US
  • 117 posts
Posted by rpc7271 on Thursday, August 3, 2006 5:20 PM
I model in HO so let's get rid of all the articles about "Z", "N" "S" & "O" scale as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 1,414 posts
Posted by Guilford Guy on Thursday, August 3, 2006 5:20 PM
was this the same situation when Jack verducci's GR was featured in MRR back in 2000
I think they are just trying to get GRR subscribers
Does it matter if someone elses layout is put in MR???

Alex

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Redding, California
  • 1,428 posts
Posted by Train 284 on Thursday, August 3, 2006 5:17 PM
Glad to see this has calmed down!
Matt Cool Espee Forever! Modeling the Modoc Northern Railroad in HO scale Brakeman/Conductor/Fireman on the Yreka Western Railroad Member of Rouge Valley Model RR Club
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 3,264 posts
Posted by CAZEPHYR on Thursday, August 3, 2006 1:31 PM
 rogertra wrote:

So, we have another garden railway featured in MR.  Why?

There is a Kalmbach publication strictly for garden railways so why take up space in MR, which already lacks the "meaty" articles of years gone by, when it could have been published in the magazine created just for garden railways?

Do they feature non-garden railways in the garden railway magazine.

 

The aritcles about HO probably are contained in our magazine, but who cares if our scale is in another magazine.  I personally enjoy more than one scale and own many models in five different scales. . 

Whatever is in MR is up to the editor.  If they start articles on knitting and basket weaving, I probably would complain.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • 6,434 posts
Posted by FJ and G on Thursday, August 3, 2006 9:26 AM
In this month's GRR magazine, there are 6 full pages devoted to an indoor G-gauge layout. Go figure!

Also, perhaps a year ago? there was an article in MR regarding a 3-rail museum layout (that should have been in CTT).

Perhaps the editors can discuss this? Or perhaps they are trying to offer samples of stuff for the other sister magazines so you'll order more than one magazine.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Thursday, August 3, 2006 2:05 AM
FWIW, Roger, I agree with you 100%. I don't buy MR for articles about gardening, with some few toy trains thrown in. Most of the responses to your original post miss the point. It's not about large scale vs. HO, or indoors vs. outdoors. It's about having a magazine that gives priority to model railroading information, rather than one that features gardening and landscaping information. As far as I'm concerned, the two are quite different and separate hobbies, and should be treated as such.

Awaiting the flames,

Mark.
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Beaver Falls, PA
  • 299 posts
Posted by Kurt_Laughlin on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 3:05 PM

Someone made the comment that because garden railways already have "their own" publication MR shouldn't tie up valuable pages covering them.  I guess then:

No S gauge models.

No O gauge models.

No N gauge models.

No narrow gauge/short line models.

No prototype info.

No articles on model railroad planning.

No articles on "Great" model railroads.

I guess there's always ads for HO stuff to fill out the pages . . .

KL

 

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
  • 21,484 posts
Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 2:12 PM

I was sitting outside in a lawn chair reading MR when I came across that article.  I thought it showed a lot of skill and effort on the part of the builders, and IMHO it was one of the best articles in the issue.  Having found rocks in my wife-packed suitcase when I've returned from vacation, I realized that crossing state lines to pick up a stone with a specific mineral content is something only a gardener would do.

Up here in the frozen north (where, incidentally, it's now 97 degrees) there are very few garden railways, so I've never actually seen a real outdoor one.  It's a treat to have MR show me something I'm not likely to otherwise ever get a chance to look at.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 12:56 PM
Glad  most of you enjoyed my Garden RR  empire  in the Aug. issue...The pics & article was done 7 years ago!!!...  When Lou Sassi.was here taking the photo's he asked to submit them to MR...I welcome visitors reguardless of what scale they may model in...  mike   pm&j   now refered to as the A&LM
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: West Australia
  • 2,217 posts
Posted by John Busby on Saturday, July 15, 2006 1:08 PM
 devils wrote:
Does it cease to be a model railroad just because some of the scenery is real? I got into garden railways as a result of articles in a the British Railway Modeller magazine, my G scale locos are as well detailed if not better than my HO ones. It's about variety and seeing things you might not consider otherwise. There are lots of articles in Model Railroader that don't interest me particularly but they sometimes have an idea I can use. If we don't model a particular Railroad then an article on building a specific coach or loco isn't relevant either for me.
I'm happy with the general content, one good article can make it an issue I'll keep and look at again and again.
Buy a G scale loco sit it on the shelf and see how long it takes for the idea to build a layout to start!
Oh and don't forget to keep buying the HO for when it's cold out there or raining.Smile [:)]
 
Hi devils
Yes it does cease to be a model.
My railway is realSmile,Wink, & Grin [swg] but then that's my opinion which may or may not have a foundation in reality.
I got into garden railways because of articals in Railway Modeler
I will eventualy build an indoor  branch line or something to cover rainy days just cannot make up my mind on do I unpack the OO or just keep it all  large scaleSmile [:)].
regards John

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!