future of model railroading vs. greed

[Anonymous]

What kind of chance do they have of this happening??

[Anonymous]

One last note on trademarks and copyrights. You know these require you file them with the Federal Gov and pay them a fee for their service. Just because you know how to write the html code for copyright and post it on you webpages don't make it so. Most things on the web that claim to be copyrighted aren't and a case can be made that they are in reality in public domain. They are still protected as intellectual property, but that's harder to prove. I see lots of websites that say copyrighted that have others intellectual property on them as buttons and/or pictures. Makes me LOL. On another subject, I read where microsoft was sueing a company for all the profits made from the illegal use of their operating system. They had a site licences for 50 and had like 100 computers using it. This invalidated the use licences, so all profits made by the company for like 15 years will most likely be awarded to Microsoft by Federal Court. Then people accuse UP of greed?

[Anonymous]

One last note on trademarks and copyrights. You know these require you file them with the Federal Gov and pay them a fee for their service. Just because you know how to write the html code for copyright and post it on you webpages don't make it so. Most things on the web that claim to be copyrighted aren't and a case can be made that they are in reality in public domain. They are still protected as intellectual property, but that's harder to prove. I see lots of websites that say copyrighted that have others intellectual property on them as buttons and/or pictures. Makes me LOL. On another subject, I read where microsoft was sueing a company for all the profits made from the illegal use of their operating system. They had a site licences for 50 and had like 100 computers using it. This invalidated the use licences, so all profits made by the company for like 15 years will most likely be awarded to Microsoft by Federal Court. Then people accuse UP of greed?

[Anonymous]

Well Dave, here's the deal with decals as I see it. Most decal makers are small time cottage industries. Say you make a UP decal set. Step 1 is the UP would be required to send a cease and desist letter. If you blow that off then they take you to Federal Court. This requires time and money to be spent by UP and if they win they get the profit you made from poaching their trademark. Wow, $75. Spent $100,000. Vary rarely do the courts award attorney fees, and if they did, how will UP collect from you? So I think decals will continue to exsist, they are too easy to make. But if you are Bachmann making locos you might be worth going after.
As to fallen flags, well the new owners purchased them. They got all the assets as well as all the debts. Copyright and trademark laws gives time limits to how long a work is valid. I'm thinking it's 99 years. So they own it that long. Sorry, but they do.
If this goes on I might look into making decals and custom locos myself. There are always alternatives!

[Anonymous]

Well Dave, here's the deal with decals as I see it. Most decal makers are small time cottage industries. Say you make a UP decal set. Step 1 is the UP would be required to send a cease and desist letter. If you blow that off then they take you to Federal Court. This requires time and money to be spent by UP and if they win they get the profit you made from poaching their trademark. Wow, $75. Spent $100,000. Vary rarely do the courts award attorney fees, and if they did, how will UP collect from you? So I think decals will continue to exsist, they are too easy to make. But if you are Bachmann making locos you might be worth going after.
As to fallen flags, well the new owners purchased them. They got all the assets as well as all the debts. Copyright and trademark laws gives time limits to how long a work is valid. I'm thinking it's 99 years. So they own it that long. Sorry, but they do.
If this goes on I might look into making decals and custom locos myself. There are always alternatives!

[dknelson]

By the way the same license issues for model trains would also apply to decals so in theory a railroad could I guess prevent even that option if they wanted to. We have come a long way (the wrong way) since the Illinois Central used to actually sell IC train sets to the public as a form of advertising! The only railroad I know of that does that in a big way today is the Wisconsin Southern which has an entire company store that sells really nice models of its equipment.
The whole area of trademark law has become very aggressive in just the last few years. I think that the railroads are over reacting myself but I can see their legal point. with one exception -- I think they are on shakey grounds in asserting these license rights over fallen flag names and logos that they have acquired. I fail to see the legal harm to the UP if someone wants to sell a Chicago Great Western box car -- the CGW ceased to exist in 1968 or so.
Dave Nelson

[dknelson]

By the way the same license issues for model trains would also apply to decals so in theory a railroad could I guess prevent even that option if they wanted to. We have come a long way (the wrong way) since the Illinois Central used to actually sell IC train sets to the public as a form of advertising! The only railroad I know of that does that in a big way today is the Wisconsin Southern which has an entire company store that sells really nice models of its equipment.
The whole area of trademark law has become very aggressive in just the last few years. I think that the railroads are over reacting myself but I can see their legal point. with one exception -- I think they are on shakey grounds in asserting these license rights over fallen flag names and logos that they have acquired. I fail to see the legal harm to the UP if someone wants to sell a Chicago Great Western box car -- the CGW ceased to exist in 1968 or so.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Another cano'snakes for brewery cars, Hershey train sets, etc? Lot's of that stuff is already being made under trademark licences. That's why coke boxcars cost more and have a regestered trademark logo on them. That's why Atherns are the only producers to make John Deere tractors in HO. That's why Farmalls are refered to as "red Tractors" in the Walthers catalog and have no logos. This isn't a new thing as the orginal posting would lead one to believe. This is an old issue. UP is being beat up on because they said something about their trademark being illegally poached by train makers. So UP is being made out to be Aholes for doing what 1000s of other companies already do, controlling who uses and makes money off their name and trademark. I'm sure BNSF and CSX feel the same way, but they are not as vocal as UP and are setting back and watching. And another reason it's been going on so long is the train hobby was basically a small time industury and wasn't worth the trouble. Then McDonalds and Disney started selling their logos. Now everyone wants to sell their image, including UP. The base question is, would Bachmann sell more trains with an UP logo or with a Bachmann logo painted on it. If they would sell more with UP then they are profiting from UP's logo. But either way they are in violation of US laws without a licences.

[Anonymous]

Another cano'snakes for brewery cars, Hershey train sets, etc? Lot's of that stuff is already being made under trademark licences. That's why coke boxcars cost more and have a regestered trademark logo on them. That's why Atherns are the only producers to make John Deere tractors in HO. That's why Farmalls are refered to as "red Tractors" in the Walthers catalog and have no logos. This isn't a new thing as the orginal posting would lead one to believe. This is an old issue. UP is being beat up on because they said something about their trademark being illegally poached by train makers. So UP is being made out to be Aholes for doing what 1000s of other companies already do, controlling who uses and makes money off their name and trademark. I'm sure BNSF and CSX feel the same way, but they are not as vocal as UP and are setting back and watching. And another reason it's been going on so long is the train hobby was basically a small time industury and wasn't worth the trouble. Then McDonalds and Disney started selling their logos. Now everyone wants to sell their image, including UP. The base question is, would Bachmann sell more trains with an UP logo or with a Bachmann logo painted on it. If they would sell more with UP then they are profiting from UP's logo. But either way they are in violation of US laws without a licences.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

Can you brew beer and put Budweisers logo on it?

Another cano'snakes for brewery cars, Hershey train sets, etc?

maybe i'll go back to school and become a lawyer. i smell dollars...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

Can you brew beer and put Budweisers logo on it?

Another cano'snakes for brewery cars, Hershey train sets, etc?

maybe i'll go back to school and become a lawyer. i smell dollars...

[Anonymous]

As to model trains being free advertising, well, that's not really true because how many of us wonder who we are going to use to ship our next consignment. I know I do it all the time. As to protest and boycotts, well who and what would you not buy? The UP hauls coal to the powerplant here. Stop using electric? UP has a right to their trademark and its likenesses just like Coke, Pepsi, and Bachmann. I can't imagine them really thinking that they can make more money off of the small hobby market than they can hauling unit trains of coal. If you owned a business you would feel different. It's your name and reputation on the line. Say a child gets his finger ran over and cut by a HO model UP train. Could you sue UP for the injury? I am sure it will be tried by todays lawers and the public with their "lottery jackpot lawsuit" mentality. Then the UP will have to defend themselves. That's free! If I was UP and UPS I'm not sure I wouldn't want my logos used by others. As to charging a fee, why not? It's intellectual property that UP owns, it's not public domain. Can you brew beer and put Budweisers logo on it? How about printing an Encylopedia and putting World Book on it? It's the law, and a really old one too.

[Anonymous]

As to model trains being free advertising, well, that's not really true because how many of us wonder who we are going to use to ship our next consignment. I know I do it all the time. As to protest and boycotts, well who and what would you not buy? The UP hauls coal to the powerplant here. Stop using electric? UP has a right to their trademark and its likenesses just like Coke, Pepsi, and Bachmann. I can't imagine them really thinking that they can make more money off of the small hobby market than they can hauling unit trains of coal. If you owned a business you would feel different. It's your name and reputation on the line. Say a child gets his finger ran over and cut by a HO model UP train. Could you sue UP for the injury? I am sure it will be tried by todays lawers and the public with their "lottery jackpot lawsuit" mentality. Then the UP will have to defend themselves. That's free! If I was UP and UPS I'm not sure I wouldn't want my logos used by others. As to charging a fee, why not? It's intellectual property that UP owns, it's not public domain. Can you brew beer and put Budweisers logo on it? How about printing an Encylopedia and putting World Book on it? It's the law, and a really old one too.

[emdgp92]

It's all about corporate greed. Trains aren't the only plastic kits being "trademarked" like this. Take a look at any 1/25 plastic Chevy kit to see what I mean. Not only does GM copyright the Chevy name, model name, etc... but near the end, they also claim a copyright on the body style! I'm not exactly sure why they do that, since I really doubt that someone is going to scratchbuilt a 1952 Chevy sedan...

Another case comes to mind... remember the hornets' nest CSX released when they tried to do a similar stunt a few years ago?

[emdgp92]

It's all about corporate greed. Trains aren't the only plastic kits being "trademarked" like this. Take a look at any 1/25 plastic Chevy kit to see what I mean. Not only does GM copyright the Chevy name, model name, etc... but near the end, they also claim a copyright on the body style! I'm not exactly sure why they do that, since I really doubt that someone is going to scratchbuilt a 1952 Chevy sedan...

Another case comes to mind... remember the hornets' nest CSX released when they tried to do a similar stunt a few years ago?

[Anonymous]

I personally am very much opposed to UP licencing their logos. Model trains with their logo on are free advertising for them. I myself have also seen cheap plastic battery powered trains lettered for UP. How times change. There were many other cases besides Lionel's F3's where railroads paid for toy train companies to produce trains with their logos on. Marx and American Flyer also produced certain models at the request of railroad companies. I hadn't heard about CSX or BNSF wanting to do this. To me a wise decision for a railroad would be to not licence their name and then even more model trains will be produced for their company instead of their competitors who want to be licenced.

With the mention of UPS I'm reminded of a bad case of what can happen in these situations. In the 80's there was a small company (can't remember the name) that was just starting up that manufactured O gauge rolling stock simmilar to Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc. that wanted to make a UPS boxcar. UPS said no, but they made one anyway. Not many ended up being produced. UPS took them to court and the company ended up closing.

I heard that the Model Railroad Industry Association was trying to stop this licencing from happening. I sincerely hope they'll succeed. I'll be rooting for them!

[Anonymous]

I personally am very much opposed to UP licencing their logos. Model trains with their logo on are free advertising for them. I myself have also seen cheap plastic battery powered trains lettered for UP. How times change. There were many other cases besides Lionel's F3's where railroads paid for toy train companies to produce trains with their logos on. Marx and American Flyer also produced certain models at the request of railroad companies. I hadn't heard about CSX or BNSF wanting to do this. To me a wise decision for a railroad would be to not licence their name and then even more model trains will be produced for their company instead of their competitors who want to be licenced.

With the mention of UPS I'm reminded of a bad case of what can happen in these situations. In the 80's there was a small company (can't remember the name) that was just starting up that manufactured O gauge rolling stock simmilar to Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc. that wanted to make a UPS boxcar. UPS said no, but they made one anyway. Not many ended up being produced. UPS took them to court and the company ended up closing.

I heard that the Model Railroad Industry Association was trying to stop this licencing from happening. I sincerely hope they'll succeed. I'll be rooting for them!

[vsmith]

If the RR companies are stupid enough to try to pu***his,

1. They will end up looking like the Big Bully trying to take away little kids train sets ( at least thats how the media will pitch it) and end up with a very bad PR mess.

2. Manufacturers will just simply stop painting thier products and will only offer undecorated versions of generic locomotives.

3. Aftermarket detial suppliers will have to offer those special details that differentiate between UP locos and say NS locos.

4. Us the hobbiest will have to rediscover the lost art of "painting' and paint our locos ourselves or send them to specialist hobbiest to do for us.

Although the chances of it coming to this are pretty slim. I think they will work out something that will usually pull more $$ out of our pockets.

[vsmith]

If the RR companies are stupid enough to try to pu***his,

1. They will end up looking like the Big Bully trying to take away little kids train sets ( at least thats how the media will pitch it) and end up with a very bad PR mess.

2. Manufacturers will just simply stop painting thier products and will only offer undecorated versions of generic locomotives.

3. Aftermarket detial suppliers will have to offer those special details that differentiate between UP locos and say NS locos.

4. Us the hobbiest will have to rediscover the lost art of "painting' and paint our locos ourselves or send them to specialist hobbiest to do for us.

Although the chances of it coming to this are pretty slim. I think they will work out something that will usually pull more $$ out of our pockets.

[dknelson]

Greed maybe ... although I suspect the costs of running the trademark license program are probably larger than the fees collected, at least for the UP. Unfortunately the law obligates a trademark owner to be aggressive about ALL users so if the UP wants to prevent some trucking firm from pretending to be them, and surely they do, then they have to assert at least token control over the use of that same logo as it appears on a model train. The cost of being tolerant can be a high one, and UP has the oldest logos in the business, surely of considerable value.
So far it has not been the disaster scenario that some painted when the UP first started getting aggressive about their trademarks. That might change if some railroad decides to try to make real money off of this, or wants to utterly prevent models of its trains, of course. It would be an interesting test case but what model firm can afford litigation in today's climate? Maybe the ACLU could be interested? ....
And this trademark issue is not really new, as anyone who has ever wanted an authentic UPS truck for their layout can tell you. I think UPS just says no to everything.
It is worth remembering that when Lionel issued their famous Santa Fe F3s 50+ years ago they did so with the complete cooperation of both EMD and the Santa Fe. So again this is not unprecedented or new.
One issue that I think WILL be very interesting however -- a recent ad in model railroader (for a west coast firm the name of which I forget) has a UP car, presumably licensed, where they also include the anti-UP graffiti, so it says "We Will Deliver JOB CUTS"
If UP tries to use its license muscle to prevent an accurate model of an actual freight car then I would be more concerned than I am about the existing situation.
Dave Nelson

[dknelson]

Greed maybe ... although I suspect the costs of running the trademark license program are probably larger than the fees collected, at least for the UP. Unfortunately the law obligates a trademark owner to be aggressive about ALL users so if the UP wants to prevent some trucking firm from pretending to be them, and surely they do, then they have to assert at least token control over the use of that same logo as it appears on a model train. The cost of being tolerant can be a high one, and UP has the oldest logos in the business, surely of considerable value.
So far it has not been the disaster scenario that some painted when the UP first started getting aggressive about their trademarks. That might change if some railroad decides to try to make real money off of this, or wants to utterly prevent models of its trains, of course. It would be an interesting test case but what model firm can afford litigation in today's climate? Maybe the ACLU could be interested? ....
And this trademark issue is not really new, as anyone who has ever wanted an authentic UPS truck for their layout can tell you. I think UPS just says no to everything.
It is worth remembering that when Lionel issued their famous Santa Fe F3s 50+ years ago they did so with the complete cooperation of both EMD and the Santa Fe. So again this is not unprecedented or new.
One issue that I think WILL be very interesting however -- a recent ad in model railroader (for a west coast firm the name of which I forget) has a UP car, presumably licensed, where they also include the anti-UP graffiti, so it says "We Will Deliver JOB CUTS"
If UP tries to use its license muscle to prevent an accurate model of an actual freight car then I would be more concerned than I am about the existing situation.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Hello.
I am new to this board.
I have herd some shocking news that the model train industry is ending, and the number one reason is that the reailroads want to enforce a law that has been in the books for a long time, wich is to get a fee for using there railroad name, ie, Union Pacific, also there paint color etc. I dont know of this is true, but I have also herd the chairman of UP wants this inforced. I would encourage us as model railroaders to fight thisuntill we win. Whats next, is the auto, truck aircraft etc makers going to do this to???? It all boils down to GREED. If this becomes law, we WILL no longer have a hobby. Other railroads who are joinging this are CSX, BNSF, and Montaina Railroad Link. This can and will raise prices of model train products, and it all adds up to NO HOBBY!!!!! We need to fight this period.

[Anonymous]

Hello.
I am new to this board.
I have herd some shocking news that the model train industry is ending, and the number one reason is that the reailroads want to enforce a law that has been in the books for a long time, wich is to get a fee for using there railroad name, ie, Union Pacific, also there paint color etc. I dont know of this is true, but I have also herd the chairman of UP wants this inforced. I would encourage us as model railroaders to fight thisuntill we win. Whats next, is the auto, truck aircraft etc makers going to do this to???? It all boils down to GREED. If this becomes law, we WILL no longer have a hobby. Other railroads who are joinging this are CSX, BNSF, and Montaina Railroad Link. This can and will raise prices of model train products, and it all adds up to NO HOBBY!!!!! We need to fight this period.