"Rivet Counter" Put Downs

[SpaceMouse]

Rivet Counter, Rivet Counter
Can't touch me
Your 10-by glass
Is to small for me

If it were that important
The stuff I couldn't see
I'd be spending my time
With a layout in Z

So take your detailed bottoms
Stored up on the shelf
And work into the night
Like a Keebler Elf

It's got to impress a body
the brake leak on your tire
Oops that is isn't right
the ladder goes up higher

So Rivet Counter, Rivet Counter
No importance to me
I'd fini***his poem,
But I really got to pee.

[TrainFreak409]

There isn't a clear-cut definition of a "Rivet Counter" is there?

It has always been my impression that the term Rivet Counter was coined to relate to those modelers that look for absolute perfection in any model...And would have the tendancy to count rivets (metaphorically speaking) on other railroader's models, and point out the flaws and why they are not exactly prototypical. Now, would that or would that not annoy any modeler that is not striving for absolute perfection?

But that's just the definition I have learned and adapted to coinside with my train of thought. (Pun intended)

But as everyone else can see, reading through here, there are many definitions for what a "Rivet Counter" is...But from what I've read, the majority of the definitions of a Rivet Counter is nothing good...But what does it matter here? We are just a small group of individuals in the massive model railroading world...Who knows all the definitions that could be out there...

Maybe we should contact the NMRA and ask for a standard.[^][:p][;)]

[vsmith]

Hmmmm..Slow news day I guess

I stand by my comments, simply pulling one (or many) comments out of their original context and then griping about it is a fallicy, as it doesnt allow the reader to understand what the original comment was referring to in the first place.

All my comments are based on PERSONAL interactions over the years. I've seen good models put down for very minor reasons. Doesnt matter that its a fine model, its not correct to the line in THIS year or on THAT day. God FORBID you show up with something freelanced, "What line ran this, where's the blueprints? WHAT? its FREELANCED, OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! " So yes, myself, and quite apparently several others here, have had BAD run-ins's with what is refered to as a Rivet Counter...these kind of encounters are one reason (of many) for my switch to large scale from HOn30, I just got tired of the few but vocal gripe-masters that one seams to run into in HO and HOn gauges...

To me ...Rivet Counters are BAD people who grip, **** and moam about ANYTHING that upsets their model RR universe, be that incorrect rivet patterns on a Z scale F7, or freelanced loggings engines, or anything that simply offends their eye. Its not that they may dislike something, I see stuff I dont like too, the difference is that I dont go out of my way to pick a fight with the guy who built it. A rivet counter likes to pick fights

BTW what do I call open minded, friendly, helpfull, guys who can scratchbuilt a K7 from 10 sheets of brass with nothing more than snips, files, and a soldering iron? MODELERS! And I've known a couple of them...these Master Modelers fall no where near the term Rivet Counter.

They know its a hobby, its supposed to be FUN, and if your not having fun, if its a chore to build something, if it brings out the worst in a person, makes them confontational, krotchety, and just plain no fun to be around, your in the wrong hobby!

PS some of the BEST modelers I've seen do whimsical fantastic stuff almost exclusivly, yet I haven't seen very many better modelers... major examples being Malcomn Furlow being one, John Allen being another, (If anyone can produce an official builder or NMRA blueprint of his triceritops switcher #13... I'll eat a %$^# bug!)[;)]

[vsmith]

I'll add this just to irritate the ultra-rivet counters out there![;)]

A kitbashed, freelanced raitruck for my *mythical* mining RR, The Borracho Springs RR, that runs to a town in a corner of Ariziona that never existed...built, by eye!, no measurements, using quite literally whatever I could find in my part box, what I couldnt find, like the engine block, I scratched out of balsa and styrene....in a word, it a complete fantasy! Never existed, never had any blueprints, never will!!! I dig it!!! Looks great to me, and thats all that counts.[:D]

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Some years ago MR did an article about a well-known modeller, very prolific, and an early proponent of "operation" (as opposed to "running trains"). It was noted that if something was giving him a problem (like a leading truck on a steam locomotive), he simply took it off or otherwise fixed it so it wasn't a problem. If the result wasn't "prototypical," so what? The enjoyment was in playing the game (operation).

No...that certainly wasn't John Allen!

Ellison and others may have done it too, but Linn Westcott noted in his book Model Railroading with John Allen (Kalmbach) that John freely swapped tenders between engines, whether coal, oil or wood, no matter the firebox type, to change their appearance. He also notes that engines, specifically mentioning #35, had the front truck removed (making #35 an extemely unlikely 0-6-6-0) for better running performance.

A direct quote from Westcott, page 133: "... John valued mechanical perfection much more than prototype fidelity."

Regards,

Byron

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

... Let me see your perfect model(s) sir? Then you can chastise me all you want for my critter work and rivet bashing.

Crandell no like ad hominem arguments. Don't help one little bit, nope.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Hmmmm..Slow news day I guess

I stand by my comments, simply pulling one (or many) comments out of their original context and then griping about it is a fallicy, as it doesnt allow the reader to understand what the original comment was referring to in the first place.

All my comments are based on PERSONAL interactions over the years. I've seen good models put down for very minor reasons. Doesnt matter that its a fine model, its not correct to the line in THIS year or on THAT day. God FORBID you show up with something freelanced, "What line ran this, where's the blueprints? WHAT? its FREELANCED, OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! " So yes, myself, and quite apparently several others here, have had BAD run-ins's with what is refered to as a Rivet Counter...these kind of encounters are one reason (of many) for my switch to large scale from HOn30, I just got tired of the few but vocal gripe-masters that one seams to run into in HO and HOn gauges...

To me ...Rivet Counters are BAD people who grip, **** and moam about ANYTHING that upsets their model RR universe, be that incorrect rivet patterns on a Z scale F7, or freelanced loggings engines, or anything that simply offends their eye. Its not that they may dislike something, I see stuff I dont like too, the difference is that I dont go out of my way to pick a fight with the guy who built it. A rivet counter likes to pick fights

BTW what do I call open minded, friendly, helpfull, guys who can scratchbuilt a K7 from 10 sheets of brass with nothing more than snips, files, and a soldering iron? MODELERS! And I've known a couple of them...these Master Modelers fall no where near the term Rivet Counter.

They know its a hobby, its supposed to be FUN, and if your not having fun, if its a chore to build something, if it brings out the worst in a person, makes them confontational, krotchety, and just plain no fun to be around, your in the wrong hobby!

PS some of the BEST modelers I've seen do whimsical fantastic stuff almost exclusivly, yet I haven't seen very many better modelers... major examples being Malcomn Furlow being one, John Allen being another, (If anyone can produce an official builder or NMRA blueprint of his triceritops switcher #13... I'll eat a %$^# bug!)[;)]

Lots of these exact replica types don't understand or get the fantasy layouts and that seems like a lack of that creative gene. Anyone can paint by number (follow a blueprint to make an exact model) but it takes some real creative skills to come up with a great looking fantasy world or engine, taking an image from your brain and seeing that fantasy town or world come to life and look really believable is real skill. We live in the real world, why create it again in miniature? Just go walk outside......

[fwright]

Don't know what category I fall in, and I don't really care either. I think complaining about "rivet counters" or "critics" as a justification for a model that doesn't really work with the scheme or fit in some way is not a great sign of maturity. Either be satisfied with your effort or not. Whether it is pure fiction, free-lance, prototype, or something in between; whether you want to run any mix of eras and prototype, or represent a particular day and place - these are your decisions, and have no reason to be based on what others may think.

Now, when you post photos for all to comment on, you should expect some negative comments, too. Others may place different values on different aspects of the hobby than you do, which may render your "masterpiece" as nothing of the sort to them. Courtesy would dictate that negative opinions not be posted, but that ain't always going to happen. However, if I am attempting to accurately model a particular prototype, I am very interested in ACCURATE information as to what I got wrong. Even if I don't correct the errors, I appreciate knowing more about the prototype.

Same is true of "reviews" of model production. Just because the manufacturer built in certain inaccuracies doesn't mean I won't buy it. But I do appreciate learning this information as long as it is CORRECT. The more I know in advance of what is right and what is wrong with a model, the more informed my buying decision will be. I especially like the constructive comments about no-particular-prototype models, as to what they might come close to. These reflect a type of imagination I often don't have.

As usual, my thoughts, your choices. I just want to have fun with model trains, however fun is defined.
Fred W

[tstage]

Wow! The fur is sure flyin' here early...

The issue here is not whether rivet counting is good or bad but what is the motivation and attitude behind it. If it's used to enhance the realism and historical accuracy of one's OWN prototypical layout to make it more enjoyable for the modeler - it's a good thing. However, if it's used in order to criticize or nitpick others or to gain some sort of self-imposed "smugness" and "superiority" - i.e. "MY layout is better than YOURS" mentality - then it's a bad thing.

Let's knock off the bickering, fellas, and leave this one in the early rounds...

Tom

[Anonymous]

Model Railroading is fun and no matter how hard you try, models cannot be the perfect image of the prototype.

I look at brass over the years and how it has added detail to the point of the 1960 era of brass looks plain compared to Division Point, Key or Overland models that are current.

I worked on detailing a brass model for several years before it was completed and painted. This was completed about twelve years ago and after all of the work, the Overland model came out and it was available for jus money, not time and space. painting

[Paul3]

(please forgive the quote and response format here...this thread is getting a little long for individual replies).

JMac69 wrote:

QUOTE: Now no one is going to post anything, with some one nitpicking what they say.

Heh. I doubt that will happen. [:)] This Forum would have died a long, long time ago if what you said was gonna happen.

Overdurff wrote:

QUOTE: It is unfortunate that some of the "nit-pickers" approach and comments are read, intended or not, as derogatory or an attack on the modeller.

You noticed that, eh? If you just state the fact that something is wrong, apparently you are launching a personal attack on the owner and/or creator of whatever it is that is wrong. I guess we are supposed to swallow anything that a manufacturer puts out for sale, no matter if it looks like a carved soap or not.

Virginian wrote:

QUOTE: It is because some of them, not unlike some of every other segment as well, display the sensitivity of your average brick that they all end up getting referred to in derogatory tones.

I don't suppose you'd want to post some quotes about rivet counters behaving in an insensitive manner here?

KenLarsen wrote:

QUOTE: If I accidentally offended any serious modeler who offers helpful suggestions for improvement, I apologize

Well, when you suggest that those who you don't agree with should kiss a certain portion of your anatomy, isn't that being rather insulting?

BTW, I don't suppose you can quote where rivet counters have "sneered and snickered" at other people's trains? Not that I doubt it has happened, but examples would be nice.

randyaj wrote:

QUOTE: I can appreciate you being upset at comments of others toward something you consider important.

Oh, I'm not upset...I was bored. Big difference. Believe me, if I hadn't been bored out of my skull, I would not have done this. [;)]

MABruce wrote:

QUOTE: Wow, slow day Paul? [;)]

You have no idea. [:D]

QUOTE: In my time on this forum, rivet counters don’t really have a corner on receiving put-downs. I think most anyone who has been around this forum a while has been called at least some of the above at some point over the most minor of things.

And I don't doubt it. And in no way have I meant to imply that "rivet counters" are the only victims here... I know that there have been examples of poor behavior going the other way, I'm just waiting for someone to actually find some and post it here. IMHO, there are far more anti-rivet counter posts than anti-Tyco modelers, but until someone starts digging them up, my opinion is all it will be.

IRONROOSTER wrote:

QUOTE: I stand by my comments. There are folks (some of whom are on this forum) who are hyper critical of others and/or do dictate what you must do (or not do) to be a "real" model railroader. Fairly or unfairly these folks are known as "rivet counters" or "serious" model railroaders - partly this is self labeling.

True enough. I can recall those discussions about who and who isn't a "real" model railroader. However, my theory is that these kinds of posts (and attitudes) of those who are critical of Tyco modelers are in the decided minority when compared to those that are critical of rivet counters...at least on this Forum.

Brakie wrote:

QUOTE: Then you have guys like you that gets bent out of shape if folks don't like rivet counters.and must go on the attack..Why not go after the bad rivet counters that give good rivet counters bad names?

I went on the attack? If you think sticking up for "rivet counters" is an attack, then there's nothing that I can say. Quite frankly I'm rather flabbergasted that anyone could consider my opening post an attack.

Why don't you, Brakie, dig through the archives and find some examples of "bad rivet counters"? It should be easy to do since you think they are so common, right?

QUOTE: I also know there are rivet counters that are no more then cry babies if locomotives and cars isn't 110% correct from the box..These types even lack the basic skill needed to add simple detail parts and find lamebrain or hairball excuses why they shouldn't add detail parts or gets offensive if one happens to mention how simple it would be to add a part..Another thing I like about some rivet counters is you never SEE a PICTURE of their SUPER CORRECT models!!!! Why is that?
Do they merely talk the talk but don't walk the walk?

Gee, Brakie, now I'll have to add your latest into the "Rivet Counter Put Downs" list I made. In addition to my original post, now rivet counters are "cry babies", lack basic skills, and offer lamebrain or hairball (?) excuses. Wow. And there is, of course, the requisite shot about them being armchair modelers.

Is it any wonder that the rivet counters feel they are being attacked constantly?

Thanks, Brakie, you're making my point.

marknewton wrote:

QUOTE: So you reckon. And yet when invited to cite examples of this behaviour from this forum, the silence from those contributing to this thread is deafening...

Yep. Kind of reminds you of r.m.r, doesn't it? [;)]

SilverSpike wrote:

QUOTE: I could never be a rivet counter, because I would have to build an exact replica but in miniature form (HO 1:87 is my preferred scale), and I am not even sure what the actual definition of such rivet counter includes

The Proto87 guys are pretty close to doing things exactly right to within the limits of the scale. Obviously, once you get too small, parts will start to become extremely fragile, etc.

QUOTE: So, I could never be a rivet counter, it gets too expensive and is just not realistic. 17,702.5 feet of HO scale track at 3' flex track pieces comes to 5,900 pieces of flex track, or $17,112.00 not including shipping and tax. So, how do rivet counters justify the selective compression of the mainline tracks on their layouts?

The Proto87 guys, for example, may not model an entire RR, just a switching layout. Just because you model the CNW (for example) doesn't mean you have to model all of Chicago.

Brakie wrote:

QUOTE: Its the owl hoots that feel they must find fault with other modelers work,every new release,must jump in and point out errors even tho' they are not ask for accuracy opinions/reports.These self righteous modelers gives bad names to your "Constructive Rivet Counter"..
Sadly there are hundreds of these jokers in the hobby.

You're making my point again, Brakie. Thanks! So when BLI makes a model that uses the wrong color (see WM F-units), or when PSC makes a brass 2-10-2 with the wrong tender font lettering, or when LL makes a GP with the wrong size fans, we should all just shut up and never, ever say anything about it, right?

flee307 wrote:

QUOTE: I'm proud to have made the list and I'm glad I punched your button. I also stand by what I said. Let me see your perfect model(s) sir? Then you can chastise me all you want for my critter work and rivet bashing. Also write the National Association of Rivet Counters and tell them how mean I am. ROFLOL I'm just full of hate for your kind. :)

Well, I've obviously punched your button as well. I'd just like to know when anyone here, including myself, have EVER chastised you for your modeling skill. You're blatant ripping of others, sure, that's fair game...but your modeling? Since when?

And now you hate me because I disgree with you? Grow up. But, oh please, continue posting. You are just proving my point every time your fingers touch the keyboard. Thanks for playing!

David Telesha wrote:

QUOTE: Great job, Paul...

It seems you have struck a nerve, throwing what negative comments people said back up in their faces -- even getting a few more examples!

You noticed that, too? Let it never be said that rivet counters aren't the target of "slings and arrows"...because it's obvious that they are. Personally I can't wait to see all the examples of "rivet counters behaving badly" that are sure to flood this thread...any second now...I'm sure it'll be soon...no, really...

vsmith wrote:

QUOTE: Hmmmm..Slow news day I guess

Very slow. I said I was bored, didn't I?

QUOTE: I stand by my comments, simply pulling one (or many) comments out of their original context and then griping about it is a fallicy, as it doesnt allow the reader to understand what the original comment was referring to in the first place.

Normally, I'd agree (see my disclaimer about these being out of context). However, I don't care what context it was in, calling a fellow model railroader "Evil" is just wrong. Why are they "Evil"? Because they said that something wasn't right? C'mon. Now I suppose because I have disagreed with you, I am to be labeled "Evil" as well?

BTW, WRT to your little critter there, I have also done similar things. My favorite was when I made a one-truck F7A and painted it New Haven. Called it an F3.5A (well, it's half an F7A).

That still doesn't have much to do with the fact that "rivet counters" are a frequent target of this Forum.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Here are my definitions:

Prototypical Scale Modeler -- demands high standards of accuracy on his own layout and models.

Rivet Counter -- Demands high standards of accuracy on other people's scratch built models and layouts, often demonstrating poor social skills in the process.

[mustanggt]

Hey, at least I'm not quoted there........................

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
No...that certainly wasn't John Allen! As I recall, the individual you are referring to, who did such "modifications" to his equipment to provide the best operating characteristics, was Frank Ellison, on his Delta Lines, back in the 1940's and early 50's. I'm not sure that was the best or most logical approach to addressing such matters and certainly not one I'd recommend to anyone today![:D]

CNJ831

You're right - it was Ellison, and I probably wouldn't recommend something like that either. But he remembered the most important thing - Model Railroading is Fun!

[SilverSpike]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mustanggt

Hey, at least I'm not quoted there........................

Now you wont feel left out! [:D]

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: I also know there are rivet counters that are no more then cry babies if locomotives and cars isn't 110% correct from the box..These types even lack the basic skill needed to add simple detail parts and find lamebrain or hairball excuses why they shouldn't add detail parts or gets offensive if one happens to mention how simple it would be to add a part..Another thing I like about some rivet counters is you never SEE a PICTURE of their SUPER CORRECT models!!!! Why is that?
Do they merely talk the talk but don't walk the walk?

Gee, Brakie, now I'll have to add your latest into the "Rivet Counter Put Downs" list I made. In addition to my original post, now rivet counters are "cry babies", lack basic skills, and offer lamebrain or hairball (?) excuses. Wow. And there is, of course, the requisite shot about them being armchair modelers.

Is it any wonder that the rivet counters feel they are being attacked constantly?

Thanks, Brakie, you're making my point.
=============================================================
On the contrary..You are making my point..See? Your looking down your nose at folk that doesn't agree with you..Where are Paul3's super models? All talk there Paul? I am yet to see a picture of your 100% correct models.
=============================================================
Brakie wrote:
QUOTE: Its the owl hoots that feel they must find fault with other modelers work,every new release,must jump in and point out errors even tho' they are not ask for accuracy opinions/reports.These self righteous modelers gives bad names to your "Constructive Rivet Counter"..
Sadly there are hundreds of these jokers in the hobby.

You're making my point again, Brakie. Thanks! So when BLI makes a model that uses the wrong color (see WM F-units), or when PSC makes a brass 2-10-2 with the wrong tender font lettering, or when LL makes a GP with the wrong size fans, we should all just shut up and never, ever say anything about it, right?
============================================================
Paul,Again you took what I really said and turn it around.PLEASE reread what I said and not take it out of context.YOU can QUOTE somebody without TWISTING their words?

[Anonymous]

Why a hobby that is supposed to bring happiness and joy to the participants attracts so much animosity is almost amusing to me if I knew you guys weren't so serious about the issue. I think this is more of a human nature deal than anything, and here's an example from another area. I've played enough real golf to know that I will always be a lousy golfer. But I don't go around criticizing folks who take their golf game far too seriously. It's their pastime and they enjoy it. On the other hand, you should see the looks and hear the responses from real golfers when I mention that I am pretty good at disc golf! Same thing here...as has been stated, no one should be putting anyone down period. This is supposed to be a fun hobby and you should enjoy it in the manner that you choose, realize that there is room under the model railroader umbrella for everyone and let some of this other nonsense go.

[MAbruce]

Guys, I really don’t think this topic is really so much about ‘Rivet Counter Put-downs’ as much as it’s Paul’s idea of having some fun by starting a fracas on this forum. Judging by the replies so far, it looks like he succeeded rather well.

Overall I think BRAKIE made a very good point in one of his replies – if you want to hold people to a high standard of modeling, then at the very least you had better be prepared to show that you are capable of achieving the same standard yourself.

[SilverSpike]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

Guys, I really don’t think this topic is really so much about ‘Rivet Counter Put-downs’ as much as it’s Paul’s idea of having some fun by starting a fracas on this forum. Judging by the replies so far, it looks like he succeeded rather well.

Overall I think BRAKIE made a very good point in one of his replies – if you want to hold people to a high standard of modeling, then at the very least you had better be prepared to show that you are capable of achieving the same standard yourself.

Yep! [#ditto] What he said!

[bnnrailroad]

I was gonna keep quiet on this, but.........

Heres my take (insert flames here):

#1 - I remember reading in here somewhere about how much the hobby has changed over the past 70+years. This is true. If you look back at what was produced back in the 40's and 50's todays models are much better and some, if not all of it was because of a "rivet counter" somewhere

#2 - HOWEVER...going back to #1, in just the past 20 years, an HO "toy train" has gone from costing $5-10 for an locomotive to $50-75 FOR THE SAME THING!!!! The "prototypical" are way out of my price range!! I still can't fathom spending $300 on a locomotive and I really don't care that it has evry nut, bolt, horn and rivet and chuggs or sounds like a particular locomotive. Not to mention the fact that it will more the likely be weathered.

#3 - In an old VHS tape that I have from the 1980's, I remember 2 lines that ought to put this to mess to rest. The first being a quote from Wayne Wessoloski (sp):

"In todays MODEL RAILROADING, a person can model everything from a 2 mile short line to a transcontinental line. Also the person can build ANYTHING from some having LITTLE DETAIL to ahving EVERY nut and bolt".

The second was Lorel Joiner. I still marvel over his O Scale Great Southern. I believe he is a realist. Remember, his layout fit a 50 ft x 60 ft room.

"To me, the whole idea of Model Railroading is to CAPTURE the FLAVOR of the railroading sceen. When I built my layout, I went from memory. I don't remember a particular rock formation being X miles from blank, Texas. That would be going to far. Instead, I modeled the area to capture what once was."

Couldn't have said it better. This is a HOBBY. It is also an ART FORM. Not many of us are a Picasso or Rembrant. Some of us have the ability to blow the mind of some us "new commers" with there sceenery detail. Some of the pictures that float thru here and in MR, I have to look at very closely before finding something that gives away a model. If I become half that good, I'd be very happy!

Bottom line: To each his own!

Keep'em Rollin' Partner!

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Maybe we ought to have two terms. Constructive Rivet Counter and Destructive Rivet Counter.

Constructive Rivet Counter: Strives for prototypical accuracy in his/her models. Enjoys reseaching. Finds the spending of hours to get things "just right" is relaxing. More than happy to share his/her knowledge with others if asked. Encourages without using putdowns. Understands that other modelers aren't into the same things he/she is and is fine with that. Believes that his/her way of pursuing the hobby may not be for everyone, and has the belief that if a person is having fun - then that's all that matters.

Dave,I don't have any problems with what you call "Constructive Rivet Counter" I call 'em prototype modelers.[:D]
Its the owl hoots that feel they must find fault with other modelers work,every new release,must jump in and point out errors even tho' they are not ask for accuracy opinions/reports.These self righteous modelers gives bad names to your "Constructive Rivet Counter"..
Sadly there are hundreds of these jokers in the hobby.[8][B)][V] To bad these bad apples ruin the bushel.[:(]

Those guys would be the Destructive Rivet Counters

[Bergie]

Wow, big surprise that this thread turned negative.

I'm locking this..... although I'm not sure why I just don't delete it. Probably because of the amount of effort that went into creating it.

Here's my take:

A) Stop being so critical of one another. This is a hobby after all. We're all in this for different reasons, and we all have differing opinions on what to do with this hobby. Stop looking down your nose at someone if they don't do things to your standards. Try to support your fellow modeler.

B) Everything we work with is non-prototypical when you get right down to it. I challenge you to find a model that has every single characteristic of its 1:1 counterpart captured perfectly. Working in scales of 1:160, 1:87, or 1 to whatever, you have to make some sacrafices. And that's no big deal, because, again, this is a hobby.

Now, let's move on.

Bergie