"Rivet Counter" Put Downs

[Paul3]

This is a continuation, sort of, from the following thread:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=67919

For those that have doubted that a serious undercurrent of anti-rivet counter (or "serious modeler") feeling exists on this forum, I have compiled the following quotes from the last two and a half years (back to Jan., 2004), using the MR Forum's search feature for "rivet counter" (yeah, I was bored and motivated). This is not everything, by any means. Only the ones that caught my eye have I pasted here.

Be aware that quite a few are taken out of context...but I felt they are still relevent in their shortened form. Some are from folks who no longer have accounts here, so I had to use either their signature or "Unknown" to name them. My comments, if any, follow under the quote.

BTW, I wish I had a nickle for each time someone has posted, "I am not a rivet counter." [:D]

On 6-20-06, Milwhiawatha wrote:

QUOTE: Nitpickers, and rivet counters are the reason I did a freelanced railroad. Of course I have a representation of other railroads mostly fallen flags like the Milwaukee, SOO, and WC are running but its my layout my trains and I figure if they dont like how it is they can sit on a smokestack and have a whistle somewhere, they also dont have to run my trains either. Its mine I like it and thats that.

Imagine if someone were to suggest that a Tyco collector should sit on a smoke stack with a whistle somewhere...

On 6-17-06, santafefan wrote:

QUOTE: When I get to the stage that I start measuring bits and pieces on my locos and rolling stock I will give the hobby away, the stress would take the fun out of the hobby. Rivet Counters are one reason I have stayed away from clubs, both Railroad and Camera clubs, nothing worse than having some so called expert dude pawing over your photographs with a magnifying glass, I always find perfection boring.

On 6-16-06, David Foster wrote:

QUOTE: I gave up on UK TOY TRAINS because I got fed up with rivet counters fussing that a rivet should be 1.5 microns further left on a loco maintained at Swindon on the 5th October 1911... but if it had been at Wolverhampton on the...

On 6-16-06, flee307 wrote:

QUOTE: I don't let such comments bother me. Most of them rivet counters don't have layouts and they have to buy it perfect because they can't fix any inaccuracies. Next one who says such a thing, ask them to see their layout. Stay between them and the door and point out their mistakes. This is a fun hobby, why some want to turn it into a competetion is because they are empty inside.

Now rivet counters are empty inside?

On 6-4-06, rtpoteet wrote:

QUOTE: I offered this short vignette to raise a two cents worth observation - most "rivet counters" will, sooner or later, choke on a gnat. Their's is not perfection; somehow knowing a great deal about some particular detail gives them a sense of superiority.

On 6-3-06, Mailman56701 wrote:

QUOTE: In my experience, with pc sims for example, especially flight sims, nothing will ruin a hobby, both commercially and individually, faster than "rivet counters."

Yet the MR hobby seems to be doing OK despite the rivet counters that have been around for decades.

On 6-3-06, BIGCITYTHOMAS wrote:

QUOTE: Along the way I have met some very nice people and some "rivet counters" who I prefer to call Model Railroading Snobs. When encountering this type of person it seems that only they know how to model correctly and everyone else is wrong. They do not wi***o engage in conversation they only wi***o pontificate.

On 5-30-06, KenLarsen wrote:

QUOTE: Regardless, I'm too busy to print up any new number decals. I'm gonna paint the ends yellow and leave the number unchanged, and refer the rivet counters to the mistletoe under the shirttail...

I'm trying to imagine telling any modeler here to kiss my...well, see the above...and wondering at the reaction I would get if I did so.

On 4-13-06, davidmbedard wrote:

QUOTE: Do I care if my chuffs are off by 5% or so? No. Do I care that s RIVIT (Canuck Spelling FYI) counter like you (and again....on your high horse) doesnt like it because of that fact? No. Go back under that rock from where you came from and get a life, Troll.

On 4-11-06, Fergmiester wrote:

QUOTE: Chuck has two very good ideas and one's that I've used to satisfy the Rivet Counters. When Bob (Teffy) visited me from Texas he handed me a framed document that was to be hung in the Train room. It goes like this:

Notice!
Anyone That
Doesn't Like the
Manner In Which
These Trains
Are Operated,
Please Notice
The Mistletoe
Attached To The
Owner's Shirt
Tail

On 1-22-06, IRONROOSTER wrote:

QUOTE: Fairly or unfairly, I think the term "serious model railroader" has become a cousin to "rivet counter". Both terms are coming to denote individuals who are hyper critical and have an attitude of "if you don't do it my way you're wrong". This seems to stem from some people's desire to make an exclusive club out of model railroading that requires meeting an arbitrary steep set of conditions to belong. The unfortunate side effect of this attitude is to scare people off of model railroading by making the hobby appear too difficult for the average person to enjoy.

On 1-5-06, nelsonb wrote:

QUOTE: Maybe I'm an old timer, 42 this year! and my old railroad club buddies are older than I am!!!. HA ha. Don't get to the point of being a "Rivet counter" and you will find that this is a pretty good hobby to be in!

On 12-23-05, rrandb wrote:

QUOTE: There is very strong evidence that you are in fact a rivit counter if you were not able to enjoy Northlandz for what it is. When you are able to do better then you will be in a position to criticize this one mans life work.

On 12-18-05, Fergmiester wrote:

QUOTE: I'm a "Whatever" kinda MR'r. I do whatever I want cause I do because I do. Selector has made a very good point regarding labelling. To me Labelling is a rivet counter's way of trying to impress everyone. Next time you're in a singles bar try that line ans see where it gets you.

And:

QUOTE: And yes there will always be a select few of the Clan Rivet Counter that attend these things and profess to know everything. Ignore them!

And labeling folks as "rivet counters" isn't still labeling people?

On 11-12-05, vsmith wrote:

QUOTE: Oh my, rivet-counters are why I dumped HOn30 and went to large scale, too many grumpy old men poo pooing kitbashed and scratchbuilt Maine 2-footer models we liked because they were "not exact to prototype" of course someone would point out that of course they werent to prototype, if they were they'de be on scale 24" track and not 30" scale track! then came the fists, the chains, the knives, and the blood, rivers of blood! LOL

On 11-12-05, RR Redneck wrote:

QUOTE: I take every oportunity I get to make fun of the hobby's ever growing number of rivet-counters and ultra-serious modellers.

On 9-17-05, on30francisco wrote:

QUOTE: I believe the NMRA today focuses on HO scale with little regard for other scales or gauges. There is also too much politics involved. I once went to several regional chapter meetings and found most of the people were cliquish, arrogant and rivet counters.

On 8-9-05, rrinker wrote:

QUOTE: Actually, what happened was the model manufacturers were getting too good at making detailed models, so the whole 'phase' thing was invented to give the Rivet Counters something new to complain about

On 8-8-05, trolleyboy wrote:

QUOTE: Teffy I agree with you about the rivet counters, if ever truly become one someone need s to hit me upside the head with a 2X4. I agree with your sentiments on them about them not getting their posteriors caught in the door.

On 8-6-05, "Unknown" wrote:

QUOTE: Rob:
Sometimes I think that the "rivet counters" take the fun out of MRR'ing

On 7-22-05, redneckgoober wrote:

QUOTE: Who in the hell cares? If MTH wants to get into the HO market, what's the big deal? Some of you diehard narrow minded rivet counters need to give this a rest and wait to see what they come out with. If the products are poor quality, then take your shots. Until then, just cool it!

On 6-6-05, twhite wrote:

QUOTE: I hope I don't sound like one of those awful rivet counters, but if you ever decide to tinker with your IHC 1100 series 2-8-0--they had the headlight mounted on the top of the boiler front, not the center. Just a thought, LOL!

On 5-25-05, rogerhensley wrote:

QUOTE: Nit pickers and rivet counters have always been with us, but I see it as being far worse today than it has ever been. I have absolutely no intention of spending $30 to $50US for a boxcar because someone thinks that it better matches a prototype somewhere. Perhaps it does, perhaps not, but if it's THAT important to you, don't come to my railroad.

On 5-19-05, mondotrains wrote:

QUOTE: Now, I'm waiting for one of the rivet counters to chime in with "who cares about blue box kits because they don't have see-through roof walks, the stirrups are too thick and the ladders and grab irons are molded on". A note to rivet counters....please resist trying to discourage us folks who still can enjoy life's simple and inexpensive pleasures without getting anal retentive.

On 3-24-05, trolleyboy wrote:

QUOTE: I think they were a very small run but they were definatly BLI in thaat nice red/maroon box,the sound was quite good but some of the rivet counters in St Kitts were complaining that the sound chip was from the NYC hudson so the whistle and bell were wrong.It's no wonder that BLI does so few CDN steamers with twits like that probably complaining to them every two minutes.

If any manufacturer gets discouraged from making models due to "nit picking", then they should be out of the business.

On 3-20-05, Fergmiester wrote:

QUOTE: Ken: I once lobbed the idea of another place on the Forum for the Rivet Counters and Flamers. I suggested we call it the "Whine Cellar". It never took.

On 3-11-05, TurboOne wrote:

QUOTE: Maybe I'll give up on the store idea, and start a train club. One where rivet counters are banned, and anyone can run any train.

On 3-1-05, BRAKIE wrote:

QUOTE: Yes,I miss the old days when rivet counters was far and few between and we actually had fun instead of worrying over how correct or incorrect a locomotive or car was.

On 1-11-05, "Unknown" wrote:

QUOTE: I hear people talk about being a RIVET COUNTER as being a bad thing. I would say that if the definition of the phrase includes the necessity of being judgmental about the work of others, then yes, it is bad to be a RIVET COUNTER! After all, who died and left you in charge!?!

On 11-20-04, "Bob" wrote:

QUOTE: When we were at Fergies no one noticed the three chuffs so I feel that it's not a great problem. If you listen to those darn "Rivet Counters" you'd think that it was the end of the world. On one of the threads on the forum awhile back someone was complaining about the drive axles being silver instead of black, I e-mailed and ask him how many he owned, you know the answer NONE. My reply was quit ***in' and get a life. Some people can only go up by putting someone else down, I sure feel sorry for them.

On 10-4-04, Sandy Jorgenson wrote:

QUOTE: It seems that most of the rivet counters are in HO. They obsess over details and are super sensitive. I don't see how they can enjoy the hobby.

On 10-3-04, emeraldisle wrote:

QUOTE: Hate um

This was in a thread called "Rivet Counters". Short, simple, and to the point.

On 5-15-04, robmik wrote:

QUOTE: The Atlas forum has way too many malcontents, rivetcounters, and
know-it-alls for my taste.
They aren't needed here.[xx(]
And Paul3 types who like to pick apart other folks' posts, and respond with snotty comments, one paragraph at a time.[B)] ...VERY Atlas of you, Paul3.
They aren't needed here, either.

Wow, I'm famous!

On 3-14-04, emeraldisle wrote:

QUOTE: My pet peeves, rivit counters and my D@%& hemroids, they're both in
about the same league.

On 3-9-04, vsmith wrote:

QUOTE: BIG F*#ING DEAL if its NOT STRICTLY PROTOTYPICAL. [:(!]

Its called a HOBBY, NOT A RELIGION !!!

These Evil Rivet Counters need to get over themselves...[xx(]

Now, rivet counters are "Evil". Sigh.

On 3-6-04, vsmith wrote:

QUOTE: Only wrong headed people who will put down anything which they disagree or disapprove of, those people are often refered to as rivet counters. Are you so willing to pee on other peoples corn flakes?

On 2-20-04, clinchvalley wrote:

QUOTE: No. I don't think rivet counters know how to have fun. If you're that serious about a hobby, it stops becoming a hobby. Ever see one of them smile?

On 2-14-04, emeraldisle wrote:

QUOTE: I really feel sorry for those in this hobby that can't have a little fun just for the sake of fun. Those are the people that are commonly refered to as "RIVET COUNTERS",. They're also the reason so many people leave this hobby because of the bad attitudes, so if anyone really wants to terminate this topic, thats fine, we'll call it quits, RIGHT NOW

On 2-6-04, "James" wrote:

QUOTE: Another problem I have is the arrogence that alot of the so called "Rivet Counters" (i.e. Tony Keoster) are displaying today. Its like if your not modeling a prototype, why are you here?

On 2-5-04, vsmith wrote:

QUOTE: Bad attitudes have ALWAYS been a problem in this hobby, I've experienced it as had many others. I refer to the various accounts about "rivet counters" on this forum.

On 1-19-04, emeraldisle wrote:

QUOTE: The question is directly related to rivet counters and the clickish attitudes of so many clubs in this country, that we have seen talked about on this forum in the past. It's arrogant, rude, and totally destructive to the hobby as a whole. We're not talking about a specific individual, but rather a profile or attitude of a specific group of individuals who would rather have the hobby to themselves, than to tolerate anyone, who for what ever reason, doesn't measure up to their personal standard.

So, there you have it. Rivet Counters have been called "Evil", "arrogant", "boring", "twits", and "snobs". They have been told that they are damaging the hobby, "empty inside", and that they are taking the fun out of the hobby. That they are "rude", don't have layouts, and been compared to hemoroids, etc., etc., etc.

Is it any wonder that they feel persecuted here at times?

Now, in the Forum community's defense, this is really a small minority of people that think and say things like the above. There were many posts defending "nit pickers" and rivet counters along the way when I was searching through 'em. If the above is the worst I could dig up in over 30 months of posts...that's not bad, really, considering the traffic that's on this Forum. However, it still happens, and to deny that it does is foolishness.

What I'm wondering, is someone going to post where "rivet counters" have ripped the "Tyco" modelers? And if that happens, will it meet or exceed the above?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Now no one is going to post anything, with some one nitpicking what they say.

[Anonymous]

It appears that the modeller who has done it wrong almost intentionally is most offended by someone "nit-picking" their efforts. If they are that thin skinned, they deserve the "Emperor's new cloths". The public spot light is very bright, and we might look at the "nit-picker" as the keeper of that spot light, trying to shine an amount of enlightenment into the darkness of ignorance.
My concern is for the accuracy of something that is modeled and represented as something it is not. If an individual has offered some insight into an area that we may not be aware of, or did not invest the effort to find, and we will soon be doing our Lego scale models in day-glow orange and wondering why they are not satisfying our needs. The longer we are in the hobby, if we pay attention, the larger our base of knowledge becomes and the more we ourselves know when we see something that is "wrong" but do not offer assistance in improving, aren't we worse than the nit-picker who is trying to improve the hobby or "help" the modeller to improve his skills or knowledge.
It is unfortunate that some of the "nit-pickers" approach and comments are read, intended or not, as derogatory or an attack on the modeller. If we continue to attack the nit-picker, who is going to provide accurate information to our questions about what we are trying to create, or are we just going to "play with trains" and complain when an advertier suggests every layout has at least two 'jerks" if they have added a soda shop with an employee serving sodas.

Will

[tomikawaTT]

A long time ago, I was taught that if I didn't have anything constructive to say I should keep quiet. As a corollary, I've learned to ask, "Why?" before launching a negative comment.

In some ways, I AM a rivet counter. But I also recognise that some things I obsess about (like operating to the prototype's published timetable) don't even enter into other modelers' equations.

Most of the people who have generated negative reactions have started from a negative position. Sometimes it's hard for those of us who have been active scale modelers for decades to realize that a newbie's first work is kind of like a preschooler's crayon drawing - it isn't likely to be perfect, but it is uniquely HIS. Criticizing it because it doesn't meet Master Model Railroader standards isn't going to earn anybody's respect.

Sometimes, the best thing to say is nothing.

Chuck

[Virginian]

I think the rivet counters are a very beneficial component to achieving accuracy in the products produced. It is because some of them, not unlike some of every other segment as well, display the sensitivity of your average brick that they all end up getting referred to in derogatory tones.

[Anonymous]

My Father nearly got his head blown off iduring WW2 just so I could have freedom of speech, I have no regrets for my point of view regarding fastidious people, I just dont mix with them, that is my choice, as for so called Rivet Counters fine, enjoy yourselves, we cant all be the same.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3
On 5-30-06, KenLarsen wrote:

QUOTE: Regardless, I'm too busy to print up any new number decals. I'm gonna paint the ends yellow and leave the number unchanged, and refer the rivet counters to the mistletoe under the shirttail...

I'm trying to imagine telling any modeler here to kiss my...well, see the above...and wondering at the reaction I would get if I did so.

My definition of "rivet counter" is: somebody who is destructively critical of others. My post above was never intended as a swipe at modelers who strive for accuracy - I know quite a few! There are, however, a few others who sneer and snicker about other peoples' trains, who decide if certain modelers are either "in" or "out" [of their exclusive community] - THESE people are the so-called "rivet counters" I referred to in my statement above.

If I accidentally offended any serious modeler who offers helpful suggestions for improvement, I apologize[B)]

[Pruitt]

If the so-called "rivet counters" want to comment on the accuracy (or lack of it) of any new products, they most certainly can. If I don't want to pay any attention to them, I most certainly can ignore them. This is a VERY indivualist hobby - we all approach it somewhat differently. There is room for nits to be picked or not, as each individual chooses.

Then again, uninvited criticism of a modeler's work, as some are wont to do, is just plain rude. And I don't think posting the work here or on another web site is a tacit invitation for such criticism. "Hey, look what I did!" doesn't sound, or read, anything like "What's wrong with the models in this photo?" Not that I think the uninvited criticism will stop - some people are just naturally boorish.

[randyaj]

Paul,
I can appreciate you being upset at comments of others toward something you consider important. I responded to several coments in the Trains forum the other day that were, I felt, insulting to my home state Montana. I think the fine line that we walk in this hobby and maybe in most points in life is that we want others to do things the way we do, have the same priorities that we do and etc. Perhaps some feel threatened as inferior that they don't count rivets. Who knows all the motivating factors. It seems to me that the balance lies in remembering that this is, at the end of the day, a hobby. If being a rivet counter and striving for complete, absolute accuracy is what brings enjoyment to the hobby for you, then go for it. For me I am somewhat in the middle. Modeling in S scale for the Great Northern, I am not able to purchase steam power, short of brass, that is absolutely accurate for GN. My new northern is close but, I am sure to a rivet counter, would not be acceptable. But it is fine for me. I think the fury comes when either a rivet counter type slams a project made by a "non rivet counter", or equally, when "nonrivet counter", threatened by the detail of counters, lash out. Like I said earlier it is a hobby and in the end the only one that I need to please by my model railroad and building projects is me.
my 3 cents(inflation and all)
Randy Johnson

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3
So, there you have it. Rivet Counters have been called "Evil", "arrogant", "boring", "twits", and "snobs". They have been told that they are damaging the hobby, "empty inside", and that they are taking the fun out of the hobby. That they are "rude", don't have layouts, and been compared to hemoroids, etc., etc., etc.
Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

Wow, slow day Paul? [;)]

In my time on this forum, rivet counters don’t really have a corner on receiving put-downs. I think most anyone who has been around this forum a while has been called at least some of the above at some point over the most minor of things.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

This is a continuation, sort of, from the following thread:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=67919

For those that have doubted that a serious undercurrent of anti-rivet counter (or "serious modeler") feeling exists on this forum, I have compiled the following quotes from the last two and a half years (back to Jan., 2004), using the MR Forum's search feature for "rivet counter" (yeah, I was bored and motivated). This is not everything, by any means. Only the ones that caught my eye have I pasted here.

Be aware that quite a few are taken out of context...but I felt they are still relevent in their shortened form. Some are from folks who no longer have accounts here, so I had to use either their signature or "Unknown" to name them. My comments, if any, follow under the quote.

BTW, I wish I had a nickle for each time someone has posted, "I am not a rivet counter." [:D]


On 1-22-06, IRONROOSTER wrote:

QUOTE: Fairly or unfairly, I think the term "serious model railroader" has become a cousin to "rivet counter". Both terms are coming to denote individuals who are hyper critical and have an attitude of "if you don't do it my way you're wrong". This seems to stem from some people's desire to make an exclusive club out of model railroading that requires meeting an arbitrary steep set of conditions to belong. The unfortunate side effect of this attitude is to scare people off of model railroading by making the hobby appear too difficult for the average person to enjoy.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

I stand by my comments. There are folks (some of whom are on this forum) who are hyper critical of others and/or do dictate what you must do (or not do) to be a "real" model railroader. Fairly or unfairly these folks are known as "rivet counters" or "serious" model railroaders - partly this is self labeling.

Please note that doing the most accurate modeling possible or faithfully following a favorite prototype doesn't in itself make you a rivet counter. You have to point out to others the errors of their ways and why they are not "real" model railroaders to join the rivet counters club.

Enjoy
Paul

[MisterBeasley]

It's a big hobby, and there is room on the tracks for everyone. When I go to a train show, I'll marvel at the detail level of a very realistic layout, but I'll also smile at old tinplate trains running around impossibly tight curves, or Thomas chugging through a very plastic village.

Besides, even with bi-focals, it's getting harder and harder to even see all those rivets. [:D]

[tree68]

Some years ago MR did an article about a well-known modeller, very prolific, and an early proponent of "operation" (as opposed to "running trains"). It was noted that if something was giving him a problem (like a leading truck on a steam locomotive), he simply took it off or otherwise fixed it so it wasn't a problem. If the result wasn't "prototypical," so what? The enjoyment was in playing the game (operation).

I'm sitting at work, too far from my magazines to research the article, and coming up blank on the name of the modeller, but I'd bet that the the most ardent rivet counter would number him in their top ten favorite modellers....

Wracking my brain - methinks it was John Allen of Gorre & Daphetid fame...

[BRAKIE]

Paul,I'm not naive when it comes to rivet counters good or bad.There are both kinds.
Then you have guys like you that gets bent out of shape if folks don't like rivet counters.and must go on the attack..Why not go after the bad rivet counters that give good rivet counters bad names?
I also know there are rivet counters that are no more then cry babies if locomotives and cars isn't 110% correct from the box..These types even lack the basic skill needed to add simple detail parts and find lamebrain or hairball excuses why they shouldn't add detail parts or gets offensive if one happens to mention how simple it would be to add a part..Another thing I like about some rivet counters is you never SEE a PICTURE of their SUPER CORRECT models!!!! Why is that?
Do they merely talk the talk but don't walk the walk?

One can't help but wonder.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

I stand by my comments. There are folks (some of whom are on this forum) who are hyper critical of others and/or do dictate what you must do (or not do) to be a "real" model railroader.

So you reckon. And yet when invited to cite examples of this behaviour from this forum, the silence from those contributing to this thread is deafening...

All the best,

Mark.

(Self-Confessed Rivet Counter)

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Some years ago MR did an article about a well-known modeller, very prolific, and an early proponent of "operation" (as opposed to "running trains"). It was noted that if something was giving him a problem (like a leading truck on a steam locomotive), he simply took it off or otherwise fixed it so it wasn't a problem. If the result wasn't "prototypical," so what? The enjoyment was in playing the game (operation).

I'm sitting at work, too far from my magazines to research the article, and coming up blank on the name of the modeller, but I'd bet that the the most ardent rivet counter would number him in their top ten favorite modellers....

Wracking my brain - methinks it was John Allen of Gorre & Daphetid fame...

No...that certainly wasn't John Allen! As I recall, the individual you are referring to, who did such "modifications" to his equipment to provide the best operating characteristics, was Frank Ellison, on his Delta Lines, back in the 1940's and early 50's. I'm not sure that was the best or most logical approach to addressing such matters and certainly not one I'd recommend to anyone today![:D]

CNJ831

[tatans]

Surely the next question is "what constitutes a rivet counter"? is there a standards committee that awards a diploma in rivet counting ? ? what are the limits? if you consider yourself a counter, I may not, do you consider bolt and rivet spacing arrangement and amount of rust accumulated on the underside of a 1948 boxcar along with the precise steel plate thickness and adjoinment of sheet metal joints on a coal tender, what about the glass thickness and design of frosted glass etchings on the bathroom windows of a sleeping car? Is that what people mean by rivet counting ? Or does that mean everyone has their own standards and is just "a little bit of a rivet counter" By the way, some responses are very animated for and against.

[SpaceMouse]

I think that maybe, there is just a tad of a little sensitivity going on here. IF you were at my office we'd do a little EFT to get over it, but since we're here, I suggest a couple

Now back to modeling.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I'd bet that the the most ardent rivet counter would number him in their top ten favorite modellers....
Wracking my brain - methinks it was John Allen of Gorre & Daphetid fame...

Mate, you'd lose that bet. Why would any rivet counter number John Allen - patron saint of the fantasy trains and layout fraternity - among their favourites? Even his much-lauded "operations" were little more than chess games with railroad cars.

All the best,

Mark.

(Self-Confessed Rivet Counter)

[Anonymous]

Rivet counting is important for the historical preservationist and not to the average model railroader.

Just do the best work you can and be proud of it.

[SilverSpike]

I have always wondered how a prototype can be modeled to the absolute last detail.

I could never be a rivet counter, because I would have to build an exact replica but in miniature form (HO 1:87 is my preferred scale), and I am not even sure what the actual definition of such rivet counter includes[?]

For me I could not be a rivet counter because to actually model the prototype true to form I would need to have a warehouse sized layout to have the broad 60' and 90' radius curves, the long stretches of open mainline runs between towns. Heck a scale mile of track in HO is 60 feet 7.5 inches. So, lets say I want to model the Piedmont Division of the Norfolk Southern line (BTW that is my prototype) and keep the scale miles of track in "true form". Then modeling the Oakdale, TN to Salisbury, NC division which is 292 miles (+/-) of mainline prototype track would take up 17,702.5 feet of HO scale track.[wow]

So, I could never be a rivet counter, it gets too expensive and is just not realistic. 17,702.5 feet of HO scale track at 3' flex track pieces comes to 5,900 pieces of flex track, or $17,112.00 not including shipping and tax. So, how do rivet counters justify the selective compression of the mainline tracks on their layouts?

Now I know all about selective compression, but if I am free to selectively compress my track, then I will just have to selectively compress other features of my model layout too!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
5,900 pieces of flex track

I just placed my order! Now i just need to find a convention center to buy......hmm......[:D]

[davekelly]

Maybe we ought to have two terms. Constructive Rivet Counter and Destructive Rivet Counter.

Constructive Rivet Counter: Strives for prototypical accuracy in his/her models. Enjoys reseaching. Finds the spending of hours to get things "just right" is relaxing. More than happy to share his/her knowledge with others if asked. Encourages without using putdowns. Understands that other modelers aren't into the same things he/she is and is fine with that. Believes that his/her way of pursuing the hobby may not be for everyone, and has the belief that if a person is having fun - then that's all that matters.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Maybe we ought to have two terms. Constructive Rivet Counter and Destructive Rivet Counter.

Constructive Rivet Counter: Strives for prototypical accuracy in his/her models. Enjoys reseaching. Finds the spending of hours to get things "just right" is relaxing. More than happy to share his/her knowledge with others if asked. Encourages without using putdowns. Understands that other modelers aren't into the same things he/she is and is fine with that. Believes that his/her way of pursuing the hobby may not be for everyone, and has the belief that if a person is having fun - then that's all that matters.

Dave,I don't have any problems with what you call "Constructive Rivet Counter" I call 'em prototype modelers.[:D]
Its the owl hoots that feel they must find fault with other modelers work,every new release,must jump in and point out errors even tho' they are not ask for accuracy opinions/reports.These self righteous modelers gives bad names to your "Constructive Rivet Counter"..
Sadly there are hundreds of these jokers in the hobby.[8][B)][V] To bad these bad apples ruin the bushel.[:(]

[DrummingTrainfan]

Interesting...I would agree that the rivet counters that most people refer to are those that can't stand to see a model that isn't perfect. The ones that offer kind advice and don't try to pu***heir style on other people are definately not the ones that are called "evil" and all.

Here, I have an example. By now most of us have seen the amazing work of Bob Grech, and I've seen nothing but respect for him on this forum. I can't confirm whether everything on his layout is 100% prototypical, but it is certainly detailed and there is nothing "out of place" (i.e. a fleet of model T's on 80's autoracks pulled by an SD70ACe). I have also never seen him bashing another modeler because they did something like what's above.

You give respect, you get respect...

[Train 284]

Interesting thread.........

[Anonymous]

I'm proud to have made the list and I'm glad I punched your button. I also stand by what I said. Let me see your perfect model(s) sir? Then you can chastise me all you want for my critter work and rivet bashing. Also write the National Association of Rivet Counters and tell them how mean I am. ROFLOL I'm just full of hate for your kind. :)

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DrummingTrainfan
[brYou give respect, you get respect...

Absolutely!!! The choir director at my church and her husband qualitfy as musical snobs as the "only" music of any worth is the Romantic Anthem. If they should perform any current style of music, it is with a definate Vanilla flavor. Personally it drives me up the wall (and I graduated from Eastman, but of course don't really know anything as I taught Middle School music....) When the choir butchers some piece of music, I just nod and say "really enjoyed the anthem today". Now I told you that so I can tell you this. We also have a Gospel Men's Quartet at the church made up of a couple retired music teachers and two other guys who just like to sing. All of these guys sing in the main choir as well. The style of music they sing is not my cup 'o' tea, but they sure have fun doing their thing and I enjoy watching them perform. Several years ago I was a substitute Bass with them on occasion. Our choir director's husband, who is convinced he is God's gift to Tenorhood (and sounds like fingernails being dragged down the chaukboard - he has a "studied" voice) because he sings in a well known Oratorio Society in a city not far away, will sit in the choir in front of the entire congregation and roll his eyes and make faces during the quartets entire performance. Its kinda the "performance within the performance". [:D]

You see Rivet Counters exist in every area of Human Life! Everyone that is in this great hobby is here to have some fun. A true "Rivet Counter" has fun at other peoples expense. I will only buy rolling stock and locos that have a built date prior to 1925 as that is the date of my RR. On the other hand I just told a LHS owner that he and some friends were very welcome to bring over a SD 40&2/3s XYZ Diseasal (or whatever they are called [;)]) to run if they wished.

Why don't we all get back to having fun whatever way turns us on in this hobby!?!

[David_Telesha]

Great job, Paul...

It seems you have struck a nerve, throwing what negative comments people said back up in their faces -- even getting a few more examples!

[edkowal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flee307

I'm proud to have made the list and I'm glad I punched your button. I also stand by what I said. Let me see your perfect model(s) sir? Then you can chastise me all you want for my critter work and rivet bashing. Also write the National Association of Rivet Counters and tell them how mean I am. ROFLOL I'm just full of hate for your kind. :)

Nice going, flee307. You've definitely got a response to be proud of here. Especially that last sentence.

This is a prime example of boorish behavior from the supposedly wounded "other side." A lot of folks here are spending great efforts trying to divide up the modeling community. They get to be right, only if they can show that other people are wrong. Thus these types of divisions into rivet counters and toy train players, standard versus narrow gaugers, diesels versus steamers. No matter what group you're in, there's someone waiting to tell you that you're in the wrong group, and proud to be a thorn in your side, too.

It all gets very tiresome. Makes me want to give all of you folks a rest. And that is a reaction after not having visited this forum much for a week or so. Imagine how disgusted it makes those who aren't familiar with this forum.

-Ed