"Rivet Counting".....Some Perspective

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Thus "rivet counters" got to mean people who critisized modeling of others without being any better modelers than they were.

I've always thought "rivet counter" was a rather inane insult, used by someone whose knowledge of the prototype was considerably less than the person they were hoping to insult. [:D][:D][:D]

Cheers,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Much of these discussions have lead on a path of referring to "rivet counters" as those who choose to superdetail their models. For much of my time in the hobby, "rivet counters" has been used to describe those modelers who put down efforts of others because "there weren't the correct number of rivets" on their models.

These guys could pick apart anyone elses' models, but very rarely had any of their own to show as examples. Thus "rivet counters" got to mean people who critisized modeling of others without being any better modelers than they were.

Bob Boudreau

[Medina1128]

had a layout years ago and met a gentleman at one of the local clubs. I eventually invited him over to have a look at my layout. After 1/2 hour of "you shouldas", he was asked to leave. Then, I realized, "no wonder he's the "loner" of the club... he has no permanent layout of his own. Sadly, some people fall into this. Thank God for the sake of newcomers to the hobby, there are more helpful people who offer criticism of another's work only when asked for it. It's a hobby, not an obsession. The bottome line? HAVE FUN!! My [2c]

[twhite]

Mondo--I think you've given us ALL something to think about.
I know in my own experience, that my model railroading endeavors have been to re-create something I remember with a great deal of affection, and since I'm about ten years older than you, it's big steam in the mountains immediately during and after WWII.
I grew up with SP around Donner Pass, and the sight of those big cab-forwards, MT 4-8-2 and "Deck" 2-10-2's and the other SP steam always excited me. I was rather sad when the diesels came in and replaced them (never have been able to look at a diesel the same way, but that's me). About 40 years ago, having been discharged from the service in Texas, I took the 'long' way back to California by train via Denver and the Moffat Tunnel and fell in love with the Rio Grande. Not the diesels, particularly, but the country that the railroad ran through. I started collecting Rio Grande books and found that their steam was as memorable as the SP that I remembered. Over a period of years, I decided that Rio Grande steam was going to be my primary focus, with SP running a close second.
Okay, that was the decision. I was now in the 'rivet counter' category.
However, I did NOT know the Rockies well, but being a native Northern Californian, I DID know the Sierra Nevada like the back of my hand.
Out came the 'rivet counting', in came the 'what-if?'
Perfect answer: the Yuba River Watershed, midway between SP's Donner Pass route to the south and WP's Feather River Canyon to the north.
Rio Grande decided to build their OWN line west from Salt Lake. The rest was simple.
The Yuba River Sub runs Rio Grande steam into Northern California, SP has trackage rights. I'm as authentic as I can be about the motive power (hence by neccessity I'm one of those weird brass collectors that actually RUN their locos) and they're painted and decalled with the proper loco numbers and classes, but after that, it's pure enjoyment. My main focus is running long trains up mountain passes with big steam. It works for me.
I'm not an 'operator' as much as I'm a Train Buff. I'm just starting to get around to 'weathering' everything, the layout seems to run pretty well, and I'm having a ball putting in the scenery. Some of it still looks like it belongs to something that might have been put together VERY fast, because I'm the type of modeler that does the big scene before I settle down and put in the details.
But wowser, am I having fun. It's MY railroad and I'm doing it at MY pace, and everything's going to work out just fine. I know it--it keeps me going with the hobby. But that's the way I work.
Rivet Counter? Well, probably not. Not quite MY approach. Do I admire the guys who get everything right down to the last miniscule detail? You bet.
I do my thing, they do theirs. It's all in the approach. We're ALL having a rewarding time.
Tom [^]

[Bob grech]

The bottom line in this hobby is to have fun! I agree with the above post, "The only one you have to satify is yourself"

[devils]

With my HO and On30 stuff I am trying to make it as realistic as possible with sound, details and weathering. I also want to have a railroad that can be operated like the prototype.
Then with my G scale I just put them on the track and run them, the curves are too tight, the paint is shiny and the trains are too short,(in number of cars that is, or it won't fit in the space I have).
Both types of modelling are fun and people starting out definitely feel more at ease with the G stuff as it's straight out of the box. So I suppose the G scale allows me to take a break, step back from the more demanding stuff, works for me. Let's hope the guy you replied to can maybe try something else, take it easy and enjoy it again.

There's a kid of about 15 at our club that has been coming for a couple of years running his trains on the test track, they are mostly second hand and not prototypical formations but he has fun and chats to everyone. On Thursday he set out his toolbox and did some work on his model for the model competition I run once a year. The building he was working on was fantastic, made from card with interior furnishings, leaded windows and textured walls. I can honestly say I was astounded at the quality and detail and I count myself as fairly competent. I complemented him on the model and in chatting found that he knows a lot about how buildings are made but he's not really gone into the same depth with the trains so he's happy to run whatever.
You could look at the trains he runs and never realise how skilled he is, he's learning at his pace and not getting intimidated by being pushed too fast. I'm going to give him some plans for buildings for the club layout after the competition and I see what he comes up with when he tries modelling in plastic.
One of the reasons I'd recommend anyone to join a club as there are usually people at all levels of ability so you don't feel so intimidated by the best modelling.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stuinstra

Well said Mondo

Amen and Amen!! The only person you have to please is yourself.

[Anonymous]

Well said Mondo

[mondotrains]

Hi Guys,
Earlier today I replied to a posting where a guy wasn't sure if he was having fun anymore in the hobby. Below is my response. I decided to create my own posting with my response because I think some of you may benefit from my thoughts.

I told the guy that:

You alone should be dictating how much to spend on your hobby and more importantly, how much attention you want to give to prototype modeling, including fast clocks, signaling, scenery etc. I don't know you but someone else previously mentioned that you have made a lot of progress on your more or less first layout. It sounds to me like you have linked up with some rather advanced modelers and THEY are the ones pushing you in the "rivet-counting" direction.

There's good and bad with that. The good is that you have very experienced help. The bad is that you may not be as ready as you would like to be to "absorb" all the "rivet counting". It takes time, even years in this hobby, to really know what all your "rivet counting" options really are and make decisions as to where to begin "counting".

Please understand that I'm not for or against "rivet counting". To me, model railroading is the best hobby in the world. I'm 58 years old and just received in the mail a couple of Kadee cars that I bought on Ebay. Opening up those boxes made me feel like the day I opened up my American Flyer train set back in 1953, when I was just 5 years old. That was the best Christmas ever and think about it, I'm feeling that way today just because I bought a couple of Kadee cars on Ebay. It doesn't get any better than that.

Regarding "rivet counting". I use the term loosely to mean getting a little more into the world of "true" model railroading, whatever "true" means. When I first started in this hobby, I saw weathered engines and rolling stock and commented to my buddy that I couldn't imagine messing up a perfect paint job with all that weathering. I expected to keep all my engines and rolling stock looking pristine, like they all just came out of the paint shop. Well, I've since changed my mind about weathering and what a good model looks like.

Last week, I bought a new DL-109 in the New Haven green/orange scheme and the first thing I did was find that engine in one of my reference books, to see how it looked after it had been on the road for a while. I spent an hour or 2 getting that engine weathered to the point where it looks just like the picture in my book. Yes, this is rivet counting but after 12 years of "serious" modeling, I consider a weathered model a more valuable thing because it looks more realistic.

I guess what I've really said is that "rivet counting" is really our individual decision to place "value" on various aspects of our model railroading experience. Heck, I've recently added side-view mirrors to Classic Metal Works truck cabs just because I thought they would look more realistic. Again, I placed some "value" on that and was willing to spend the time to achieve that value. I'm fortunate that I'm retired and can spend the time adding side-view mirrors.

Come to think about it, if there are 215,000 model railroaders in the country, give or take a few, they all have varying amounts of time (and money) to devote to their hobby and therefore, they all have to decide on how much "rivet counting" they can afford with their time (and money). It's the old "bang for the buck" thing. If you've only got a few hours a week for the hobby, then you're not going to waste it adding side-view mirrors to truck cabs. If your budget is limited, then maybe you can't afford $40.00 passenger cars.

Us retired guys with all the time in the world available for "rivet counting" shouldn't belittle working guys or school-age kids with less time available any more than rich folks with all the money in the world to spend should belittle people with limited funds.

Well, enough of my philosophizing. I hope I've offered some interesting perspective.

Happy railroading.
Mondo