"Rivet Counting".....Some Perspective

[fsm1000]

I like somethings realistic, like things I can do such as wooden buildings. But if I had to make absolutely everything super detailed and ultra realistic I would go nuts or be God.
For me my intention is to have fun. And while I have nothing against the Thomas engines I myself prefer something a bit more realistic.
Also, have you ever seen the face of a child when 'thier' engine [Thomas] is running on your layout? That to me is priceless and no amount of rivet counting could ever replce that.

[Anonymous]

I like this post
Some guys think they have direct phoneline to god[}:)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

People no matter how accurate you get a model it is still a model and therefore it is a toy.

You're doing it again, Bob, presenting your opinion as if it were unassailable fact.

QUOTE: Anyone that is not a modeler will look at your model and only see a toy. (ask any wife, girl friend, sig other) and see what an answer you get!

Their answer is irrelevant. It's up to the individual modeller to define their models, not non-interested persons from outside the hobby. FWIW, if I ask my wife, who is also a modeller, I know what answer I'll get.

QUOTE: You can believe what you want and try and tell everyone modelers and non-modelers alike that this is not playing with toys but you know that it is still a toy!

Yes, Bob, I can believe what I want. I believe I disagree with your opinion. I believe you might have some difficulty accepting that...[:)]

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

People no matter how accurate you get a model it is still a model and therefore it is a toy.

You're doing it again, Bob, presenting your opinion as if it were unassailable fact.

QUOTE: Anyone that is not a modeler will look at your model and only see a toy. (ask any wife, girl friend, sig other) and see what an answer you get!

Their answer is irrelevant. It's up to the individual modeller to define their models, not non-interested persons from outside the hobby. FWIW, if I ask my wife, who is also a modeller, I know what answer I'll get.

QUOTE: You can believe what you want and try and tell everyone modelers and non-modelers alike that this is not playing with toys but you know that it is still a toy!

Yes, Bob, I can believe what I want. I believe I disagree with your opinion. I believe you might have some difficulty accepting that...[:)]

[Anonymous]

Excellent post Mondo

A brief story about "rivet counters" that is only slightly off topic.

Many years ago I was in a missile squadron up in Washington. We had an MMT (Missile Maintainance Technician) assigned who was one of those "I-know-everything-and-if-you-don't believe-me-I-will-tell-you-everything" individuals. I will admit that he was pretty knowledgable about the Titan I missile and their missile complexes. But it took him six weeks to find the Imperial 400 valve.

For the uninitiated, you found the Imperial 400 valve after you were done shaking "it" and reached up for the handle to flush it - that was the Imperial 400 valve.

I offered this short vignette to raise a two cents worth observation - most "rivet counters" will, sooner or later, choke on a gnat. Their's is not perfection; somehow knowing a great deal about some particular detail gives them a sense of superiority. Ask them about the Gazornan Factor (Robert Heinlein wrote a short story about a (sinister) computer that self-destructed when it tried to perform a calculation utilizing the Gazornan Factor - there, of course, being no such thing.

I'm in N-Scale. I body mount couplers because I find them more reliable particularly when pushing long cuts of cars; most, I suspect, run with truck-mounted couplers. I don't pay as much attention as I should to car weight. I have a long term project to eliminate cast on detail, particularly stirrips and handholds, from my freight cars and replace them with detail parts. I don't really care about how many ribs or panels a particular class of boxcar had/has. The Seaboard and Western Virginia Railway runs most of its equipment (including locomotives) straight out of the box, at least initially. And I do enjoy favorable comments about my efforts. I would hope they would be inspirational to other modelers.

What you do with your railroad is your business. I may find a caboose to be somewhat of an anachronism running behind an AC4400 - you can be an idiot if you want to. I enjoy the hobby - when I bring something home from the hobby shop and put it on the track and watch it go through curves and switches I get a real rush of satisfaction - and start thinking about body-mounted couplers and .........

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MrKLUKE

What everybody else does in this hobby makes absolutely no difference
to me but I hope they have a good time! I am a self-proclaimed "RIB COUNTER"
and I consider that someone who aspires to become a "rivet counter" but, at the
same time, doesn't mind taking a few fantasy detours every now and then. I
would NEVER want everybody to be the same kind of modeler because that
would be a boring world for sure. "RIB COUNTERS" try to get the major details
right but they might slip up on a few minor ones. After drinking several large
glasses of Cruzan rum and Coke, this all makes perfect sense to me. Hehe.
[:o)]

Jeff (MrKLUKE)

I'll bring the rum, you bring the Coke and ice...

[MrKLUKE]

.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayw46

If your models are not static, that is you run them on rails, then you're playing with toys. The difference between modelers is their intensity. Evidently, some modelers are wound tight as a drum; others are as loose as a goose (pardon the metaphors).

Once again, here's somebody who has taken it upon themselves to annoint us with their definition of model railroader. Draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say "everyone on <this> side is a model railroader and everybody on <that> side merely plays with trains." Sheesh.

Guess what? I have no layout. My trains (the things with which I occasionally play) are in boxes on the top of a closet. Yet I am still a model railroader...

[bnnrailroad]

This whole thread takes me back about 20years ago. My dad was talking to a co-worker one day about our "model railroad". It peaked this fellows intrest. One night after work, he stopped by. When he saw our pike, he offered a whole bunch of suggestions. A side note here: at that time, our pike 30+ years old. It had no hills, mountains or rivers. It was (and still is) 4 interconnecting loops with a trolley line. The houses were placed in a random fashion. There were no roads.

The next day, he stopped at my dad's desk, dropped about 10 books and 2 VHS tapes. He told my dad "Watch these with your sons. I think you will see why I made the suggestions I made last night".

The next year, we modified the pike to where it is now and the "model railroad" bug had bit us big time.

Right before I left home for my tour over sea's in the First Gulf War, my dad asked me to design a new layout for the house they had just moved into. We had some ideas. He wanted to use what had and expand it, I wanted to start over. Unfortunately, we never got started.

So, for now, I have the old pike. I'm looking to build a new layout. I'm not a rivet counter or detail hound. I want to have fun and run trains. I want to do switching.

I do want it to look some what real or look like it could have been.

Isn't that what the hobby is about?

[PennsyHoosier]

de gustibus non est disputandem

[Mailman56701]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BXCARMIKE

mailman,without rivet counters you wouldn't have intermountain,p2k,branchline, red caboose,kadee,atlas, genesis... the list goes on...you'd still be playing with tycos,ahms,whatever.....there's room for both.

Oh, I completely agree. However, in regard to "there's room for both", it's usually the counters who don't share that sentiment, not the non-counters :)

At least in flight sims, it's been an "our way, or no way" mentality, and unfortunately, it heavily affected developers.

Or put another way, if it wasn't for tycos, etc., then kadee, etc. would never have come along :)

[on30francisco]

I model an indoor Large Scale logging line and also some HO standard gauge. I get my enjoyment of scratchbuilding, superdetailing, and modeling unusual equipment and structures by modeling in Large Scale - in both 45mm (Gn3) and 16.5mm (Gn15) gauges. I model HO scale to fulfill my enjoyment of scenic aspects such as trestles and bridges (which I love to scratchbuild), mountains, canyons, etc. and other things that would require a gymnasium to accomplish in Large Scale, however, I find it frustrating to scratchbuild or build craftsman kits in HO so I use either simple kits or RTR. I also like the variety of quality locos (steam of course) and other equipment that are available in HO. Both layouts are freelanced based on plausable prototypical equipment and situations. By modeling in both LS and HO, I can have the best of both worlds. The Gn15 and HO trains share the same track since they're the same gauge. Is this prototypical? Of course not but it's fun.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

And really, Matt, that is the essence of this hobby. If you are having somebody else's fun, why bother? Let the rivet counters enjoy what they do, try to learn something about what drives them in an effort to meet them half-way (good advice outside this hobby, by the way), and hope that they will reciprocate by having an interest in your way of doing things. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we all built, detailed, presented, and played with our toys the same way?

Now, I've got a Niagara I want to watch whizz by me going in the same direction 27 times. [:P]

Agreed. I wasn't trying to say that I think everyone should strive for prototypicality, that's just how I practice the hobby sometimes.


Matt

[Anonymous]

mailman,without rivet counters you wouldn't have intermountain,p2k,branchline, red caboose,kadee,atlas, genesis... the list goes on...you'd still be playing with tycos,ahms,whatever.....there's room for both.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mailman56701

In my experience, with pc sims for example, especially flight sims, nothing will ruin a hobby, both commercially and individually, faster than "rivet counters."

In the genre above, over the years, they managed to more or less get games released the way *they* think they should be, and in the process, made them much more complex than necessary, and much less overall fun, all in the name of (perceived) "realism."

And then the same group will bemoan the lack of flight sims and flight simmers these days :)

The same thing can/does happen to any hobby.

[Anonymous]

Just remember
Only I Would count the rivers on a all welded [insert rail vehicle]....

[Mailman56701]

In my experience, with pc sims for example, especially flight sims, nothing will ruin a hobby, both commercially and individually, faster than "rivet counters."

In the genre above, over the years, they managed to more or less get games released the way *they* think they should be, and in the process, made them much more complex than necessary, and much less overall fun, all in the name of (perceived) "realism."

And then the same group will bemoan the lack of flight sims and flight simmers these days :)

The same thing can/does happen to any hobby.

[selector]

And really, Matt, that is the essence of this hobby. If you are having somebody else's fun, why bother? Let the rivet counters enjoy what they do, try to learn something about what drives them in an effort to meet them half-way (good advice outside this hobby, by the way), and hope that they will reciprocate by having an interest in your way of doing things. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we all built, detailed, presented, and played with our toys the same way?

Now, I've got a Niagara I want to watch whizz by me going in the same direction 27 times. [:P]

[Anonymous]

I agree with most above statements, however, I have fun trying to be prototypically correct. Sure, it takes a little work, but the feeling after you get it right is great...a feeling of achievement.


Do remember, however, "to each his own..."


Matt

[jxtrrx]

OK. Ok. I'll stop calling you a rivet counter if you'll stop calling me a roundy-round.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Over 1500 rivets:



(Click on photo to enlarge)

Bob Boudreau [:D]

Great photo, but you just flunked rivet counting. A true rivet counter knows exactly how many rivets there are.[(-D][(-D]

Enjoy
Paul

[rayw46]

If your models are not static, that is you run them on rails, then you're playing with toys. The difference between modelers is their intensity. Evidently, some modelers are wound tight as a drum; others are as loose as a goose (pardon the metaphors).

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Medina1128

had a layout years ago and met a gentleman at one of the local clubs. I eventually invited him over to have a look at my layout. After 1/2 hour of "you shouldas", he was asked to leave. Then, I realized, "no wonder he's the "loner" of the club... he has no permanent layout of his own. Sadly, some people fall into this. Thank God for the sake of newcomers to the hobby, there are more helpful people who offer criticism of another's work only when asked for it. It's a hobby, not an obsession. The bottome line? HAVE FUN!! My [2c]

I have to say that some people do not have the right "intelligence" to be creative and to construct something that they would proudly display to others. These people take their cues and their reference from others, so they are actaully incapable of doing anything other than comparing what they see to what the ideal that they have adopted is. This person had taken another's standard as his guide, and when what he saw in your layout was sufficiently disparate from that mental set of notes, in his eyes, he proceeded to do nothing more than annoy you with his obvious lack of creativity and vision...to say nothing of tact.

Life is thus.

-Crandell

Edit- I forgot to add my usual caution, though, that if you invite people to see what you have created, they have no choice but to compare it with their "world view". Some will have the integrity to express their dismay if what they see is awful, while some will hold their counsel and nod politely and grin. If we invite others to see what we have created, we should have the courtesy to accept what they offer in the way of comment. Your invitee above was honest, you must give him that much.

[Anonymous]

Over 1500 rivets:



(Click on photo to enlarge)

Bob Boudreau [:D]

[cmrproducts]

People no matter how accurate you get a model it is still a model and therefore it is a toy.

Anyone that is not a modeler will look at your model and only see a toy. (ask any wife, girl friend, sig other) and see what an answer you get!

You can believe what you want and try and tell everyone modelers and non-modelers alike that this is not playing with toys but you know that it is still a toy!

And YES I play with toys, I make money off these toys and when you lose site of this hobby as playing with toys then you move in the being a rivet counter. Be it an amateur counter (the ones that think that they know it all) to the professional counter (that does know it all and gets paid for knowing it all).

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

Each of us travels our own road to "good enough" in our hobby, and the journey is both similar and different for each of us. This is partially due to what we learn along the way. At first there is that "that's neat syndrome" where we acquire the stripes and plaids of mismatched eras, truss rod box cars and Bill Board reefers hauled by GP 30s & 35s, F units or Sharks, with a smattering of 2-8-0s,4-6-2s, and 4-8-2s thrown in, all count among some of my favorites, but not necessarily "prototypical" and some mutually exclusive. Add to that the level of detail, hinted at by plastic injection molded on parts that should stand out from the model not blend into it. In some cases weathering can hide a multitude of "sins" but as better detailed equipment is added the "sins" become more obvious, and it is time to add to the display shelves or cull. the herd. It is part of the journey, and the development of that internal, nitpicking, rivet counting.
All of this comes as we progress to knowing more today than we knew yesterday. My friends and acquaintences will probably still refer to it as "playing with trains". So be it. Some water needs to roll off my back, and some needs to be wiped up or dealt with in some form or fashion if I am going to "model" my equipment. At this point, I have an era and an idea of what I want to accomplish, but two grand sons may cause a side trip off to the Isle of Fodor(?) and some blue tank engines.
It remains our journey, and each fork in the road takes us onto new less traveled paths.
Lets hope each of those decisions "make all the difference". There is much to be learned from "counting rivets", but let us not let that get in the way of what we are all here for to enjoy our participation in our hobby.
[2c]

Will

[Anonymous]

If you are not counting rivets then you are playing with toys not models.
I insist on only using accurate models.

[PennsyHoosier]

A very thoughtful post, Mondo. I agree, it really is about what the individual wants to do with the hobby. After all, that is just what it is for most of us--a hobby! And a great one at that!

I've just read John Teichmoeller's Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hpper Cars: A Guide for Enthusiasts. It is an outstanding book. One of the great things about it is Teichmoeller's realism. By realism, I mean both the attention to detail (rivets?), and the limits thereto. For example, Teichmoeller's purpose was to research the hoppers and then model at least of of each class and subclass. He admits that after awhile this became psychologically exhausting (something to which many of us can relate). Bottom line: the book provides a nice balance between rigorous realism and what is realistically possible. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Well put Mondo and the rest. My own two cents regarding this hobby is that there is just something enjoyable buying and running model trains and my two sons, 10 & 13, feel the same. I have been in the hobby for about fifteen years and will soon be building my fourth layout as we are moving south. Along the way I have met some very nice people and some "rivet counters" who I prefer to call Model Railroading Snobs. When encountering this type of person it seems that only they know how to model correctly and everyone else is wrong. They do not wi***o engage in conversation they only wish to pontificate.
As for true rivet counters I think we owe them a great deal. The merchandise available in H.O. these days is extremely realistic and most manufacturers have jumped on the band wagon to offer realistic cars, buildings, engines etc. Gone are most of the dual wheel drives with traction tires, horn hook couplers, over flanged plastic wheels etc. This I think we owe this to the rivet counters.
As for me I am not a rivet counter but I can not watch my NYC Niagra pulling my double stack freight cars. Something just doesn't look right. [;)]

[simon1966]

I believe that most people who devote a significant portion of their life to any hobby or activity will find themselves more drawn into that hobby. It is a natural process that comes with developing experience and skill. When I look at the models of real masters I am quite spellbound by the time and effort that went into research and constuction to get the completed model. These folks posses skills and patience that far exceeds mine, but they set a bar for me to aim at. I think it is human nature to want to do things better and to strive for improvement. These people are "master modellers". Some would call them "rivet counters". It seems to me that even when used in this context, it is used in a disparaging way, as if to imply that there is something strange about putting that much effort into something.

This is not in any way specific to MRR. If you have ever experienced the classic car movement, you will know that total perfection is admired, but often dismissed with comments like "It's just a trailer queen".

I think my friends that it is just human nature as well. It is hard for us humans to just accept openly the skill of one, without seeking to diminish it in some way. Some folks get it a lot worse, and really wallow in picking apart the work of others. There is nothing more unpleasant than the self proclaimed "know-it-all" expert that can find nothing to commend, but plenty to critique.

Anyway, enough waffle. Suffice to say that as Bob B, says above, it has evolved into a put down, no matter how it is used.