BLI's F Unit Thread (Title edited to reflect changing situations with these units)

[Anonymous]

I wanted to state that I ran ABBA BLI F7 units on a railroad today sucessfully as a consist. It took two throttles to drive all 4 horses but am learning about consisting as I go along.

Getting the 4 to work together resulted in a locomotive lashup that will pull everything I own up the wall. I have never seen such brute "Grunt" force in a desiel until today.

I also had to be careful because once the first A-B dragged off the second B-A dead and the train up the 3% as well. Gotta to remember to make sure all 4 units are working at once. IF not, flat wheels might actually be a possibility.

It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.


EDITED:::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmkwR8xiOH8

It was a test run video with a set of Norman Rockwell Boxcars that are way too modern for the F units. But they are useful because they are like sensitive on the track.

Eventually I will record more videos in the future. I tried hard to keep the surrounding enviromental noise out of the tape by either waiting until the event passes (Trucks) or perhaps someone mowing grass.

[NevinW]

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Rumor has it, corrected body shells are on the way!!!![:D]

[Anonymous]

Corrected body shells, I think the BLI's website indicates that a recall for all F units except stock numbers 404 and 405 (B&O) has information specific to it.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Rumor has it, corrected body shells are on the way!!!![:D]

I glad they straightened out the WM, it's good to hear that they run excellent and pull well. If they run as good as the Stewarts that's good enough for me.
Thanks for the report on your test run.
Bob K.

[scubaterry]

safety valve - I also have an ABBA F consist. Unfortunately they are not BLI but LLP2K. I have sound in all four units. I use the same address for both motor and sound decoders in the first AB set and the other AB set has its own address. That way I can Mu set B to set A and only use one throttle postition.
Terry[8D]

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

I wanted to state that I ran ABBA BLI F7 units on a railroad today sucessfully as a consist. It took two throttles to drive all 4 horses but am learning about consisting as I go along.Getting the 4 to work together resulted in a locomotive lashup that will pull everything I own up the wall. I have never seen such brute "Grunt" force in a desiel until today.

REALLY? Real F-7's generally pulled 3 - 6 passenger cars and maybe 10 freight cars on the 'flatlands' and ABBA with 16 cars up 2% grades. How many cars are you expecting to pull?

Your BLI's are Powered A's and dummy B'S.

QUOTE: It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.

I'm not sure if what you have is good or bad, but I am disturbed by 1. your need for "2 throttles" to run 2 (powered) units . I dont own a single train that won't work with just one throttle - including some ABBA's with all 4 unit's powered.

Something is wrong. 1. your power pak's VA capacity, or 2. something is draggin'. 3. BLI'S with QSI sound require 5 volts just to start. I suggest starting with strong power pak - with meters. 30 VA is only 2.5 amps @ 12 volts. http://www.modelrectifier.com/products/trainSound/product.asp?ID=1265&Subcategory=Big power

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

>>> snip <<<<

Your BLI's are Powered A's and dummy B'S.

>>>> snip <<<<

Really? I know some are that way, but my A-B set of BLI F7's are both powered and with sound.

[Don Gibson]

I was unaware that BLI sold their AB combinations all powered. If so, that might tax a lot of todays power packs. Without meters, how would one know? Sound adds about an extra watt (VA) to each unit.

Joe Fugate mentions that BLI 's QSI locos also have a capacitor to charge up. Hmmmm.4 units X 1amps + .25 amp motor + load- and 50% for starting = ???

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

I wanted to state that I ran ABBA BLI F7 units on a railroad today sucessfully as a consist. It took two throttles to drive all 4 horses but am learning about consisting as I go along.Getting the 4 to work together resulted in a locomotive lashup that will pull everything I own up the wall. I have never seen such brute "Grunt" force in a desiel until today.

REALLY? Real F-7's generally pulled 3 - 6 passenger cars and maybe 10 freight cars on the 'flatlands' and ABBA with 16 cars up 2% grades. How many cars are you expecting to pull?

Your BLI's are Powered A's and dummy B'S.

QUOTE: It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.

I'm not sure if what you have is good or bad, but I am disturbed by 1. your need for "2 throttles" to run 2 (powered) units . I dont own a single train that won't work with just one throttle - including some ABBA's with all 4 unit's powered.

Something is wrong. 1. your power pak's VA capacity, or 2. something is draggin'. 3. BLI'S with QSI sound require 5 volts just to start. I suggest starting with strong power pak - with meters. 30 VA is only 2.5 amps @ 12 volts. http://www.modelrectifier.com/products/trainSound/product.asp?ID=1265&Subcategory=Big power

No sir, each of the 4 locomotives in the set are individuals with thier own decoders, sound and motor. They each have a two digit address based on the lead unit's first two digits.

A unit 231 makes it #23 and the B 231X makes it #24 for simplicity. Using the "F" marking on the B unit to have both pull together in the same direction is useful. Now the other set needed to run backwards but is useful because there is no room to "Turn" the locos for the run back.

The reason one of sets were dead is the throttle for those were closed. Once both throttles are open sufficently they all ran.

Regarding the consisting, I am working on making each of the B units slave to the A's and hopefully result in just having two for one throttle.

We had consisted the units as a A-B set which worked well for one throttle (I think it was a 400) on the program track and then we consisted the other AB set. The fun began when we attempted to lash both consists together. We ended up using one throttle for one consist and the other for the other.

I have heard the PCM will have A units with decoder while the B unit has a motor and sound but no decoder. It will be plugged into the A unit like a steam locomotive tender so.. I think from a programming Point of view it might actually be a good way to do it.

I do worry about things like wires hanging down too low or wearing off at the connectors.

The control system used on the layout was a Digitrax mid range system with 5 amps.

We had genuine concerns for power usage and after about 20 minutes running the booster itself was still cool to the touch and did not drop out on us due to heat.

The sound was rather quiet but suspect that is because I havent mastered the volumes yet. I posted the video and it turned out well.

Alot of the BLI steam will pull 15+ cars up 3% grades in HO scale and I own a few that can do it. My thinking towards model trains is heavily influenced by bad performing trainset units from my early years. So pulling power is one of the citeria I have for my motive power. They will pull a 15 car up the hill with or without a helper or they will get sold off.

BLI has done a good job with them. So I do enjoy showcasing these models.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Sigh.....I hate nitpickers

David

Hardly nitpicking here, The Western Maryland is trimmed in Deluxe Gold or Imitation Yellow. That is just the way it has to be done.

The positive thing is that BLI recognizes that there were mistakes made and moved to correct them almost before the first units hit the street. I dont recall too many companies that do that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

I was unaware that BLI sold their AB combinations all powered. If so, that might tax a lot of todays power packs. Without meters, how would one know? Sound adds about an extra watt (VA) to each unit.

Joe Fugate mentions that BLI 's QSI locos also have a capacitor to charge up. Hmmmm.4 units X 1amps + .25 amp motor + load- and 50% for starting = ???

Good questions.

I have a video on the You Tube that shows two of the units tied to a Analog Tech 4 power pack. They were thirsty for power but the pack handeled them well. The units were sorta onery because they were fighting to draw as much as possible to feed thier appetites for power.

I might just put all 4 units on the bench later this weekend and fire em up on that poor pack. The Tech 4 people enjoy telling the world how powerful thier packs are. Well, we are going to prove em. (For a few minutes any how)

[Anonymous]

That is some serious motive power you have there

[cspmo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

safety valve - I also have an ABBA F consist. Unfortunately they are not BLI but LLP2K. I have sound in all four units. I use the same address for both motor and sound decoders in the first AB set and the other AB set has its own address. That way I can Mu set B to set A and only use one throttle postition.
Terry[8D]

P2K never made F units. Do you mean E units?

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

safety valve - I also have an ABBA F consist. Unfortunately they are not BLI but LLP2K. I have sound in all four units. I use the same address for both motor and sound decoders in the first AB set and the other AB set has its own address. That way I can Mu set B to set A and only use one throttle postition.
Terry[8D]

P2K never made F units. Do you mean E units?

They must be Proto 1000 F3s.
Why don't you consist all 4 units to the same address?
Bob K.

[scubaterry]

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]

Terry,
If you want to break up the consist you can just un MU the other AB set. I believe you mentioned your using Digitrax, If you never plan to break up the B units from its respective A, then you can assign the AB set the same number, do the same for the other AB. This will allow MUing of the slave AB set to the "master AB set. Anytime you need to break the AB consist, plug in and un MU. If you want individual control of all units when reassigning, then they all have to be slaved to one lead/ master A, plugging in and breaking or removing one from consist is only a little more work, but I do it all the time.
This is the only problem w/ Digitrax(plugging in to aquire and MU+or-. NCE works wonders for this purpose.
I don't understand the use of two throttles, regardless of controll the units are all running off the 5A track power. The BLIs sap power when charging the capacitor on start up of the system, you should have no problem running 4 powered units and controlling w/ one throttle. Check it out and give it a try.
A reminder about QSI sound decoders, even with the sound off the capacitor still charges on startup. At my club, we had issues w/ too many sound(BLI) units in staging and powered off line/ yards etc, it played h*ll w the power supply and circuit breakers during constant show running(very embarrasing w/ all the visitors watching a broken RR).
Bob K.

[scubaterry]

Bob K - Well if I understand you correctly I think the way you described is the way i do it. I typically run them in separate AB sets and occasionally run them all together. The F1AB set is all one address sound and motor as they always will be together and the F2AB set has all the same address as they run together. When i run an ABBA I just mu one set to the other. Once mu'd I can use the left throttle on my DT-400 for something else using only one throttle for all four units. Now that most decoders have the locking ability it makes it easier to have the motor and sound decoder on the same address. Yes it is a pain plugging and unplugging to acquire with the digitrax but it is something I can live with. I only have one IR rx at the moment and basically I probably need at least two more to make IR running smooth. So for now I use direct connect anyway. Thanks for the info.
terry[8D]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Bob K - Well if I understand you correctly I think the way you described is the way i do it. I typically run them in separate AB sets and occasionally run them all together. The F1AB set is all one address sound and motor as they always will be together and the F2AB set has all the same address as they run together. When i run an ABBA I just mu one set to the other. Once mu'd I can use the left throttle on my DT-400 for something else using only one throttle for all four units. Now that most decoders have the locking ability it makes it easier to have the motor and sound decoder on the same address. Yes it is a pain plugging and unplugging to acquire with the digitrax but it is something I can live with. I only have one IR rx at the moment and basically I probably need at least two more to make IR running smooth. So for now I use direct connect anyway. Thanks for the info.
terry[8D]

Terry,
Yes, that's what I meant. Once all units are MUed and running on the Rt throttle, yes the left is available. I don't know if you run 2 trains at once but it is done. I only concentrate on the train I am running and it is easier to Lt knob control for any function or un MU so you wouldn,t have to steal. Can get complicated and confusing. Many, myself included leave sets MU even after shutdown. In a club setting this starts to clutter the brain, and periodic cleanout of cobwebs is in order.
Did you ever consider radio? Once you use it, your spoiled for good. My DT400R lost radio cabability after being spoiled for years, on the huge club layout it was a nusiance shooting the controller at the sensor for positive control while walk around.
Bob K.

[Anonymous]

We are what allow you to use models not toys

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Sigh.....I hate nitpickers

David

[scubaterry]

Bob K - I have a modest 14 x 12 currently so i really don't have a problem with plugging in. We are moving up north this fall and I hope to have a bigger layout in my future. It would cost too much I think to convert to Radio. I am sure it is cool but that additonal cost on top of building a new layout would be steep. I agree with the line of sight problem with IR. I only have one Rx and I have to aim the DT-400 right at it to get it to work. What if you suspended a RX over the layout or maybe several? I hold the throttle at an up angle anyway and maybe that would solve some of the line of sight problems with IR.

I have a double main so I typically run two trains on auto pilot on the mains and run a switcher in one of the yards or make drop offs/pick ups downtown. I usually have a dozen or so Locos on the layout. All have sound so I get a kick out of hearing them idling particularly the ALCO engines as they drift in and out of phase.
Terry [8D]

[scubaterry]

Safety Valve - Great video.
Terry[8D]

[Anonymous]

Thank you.

I do worry that if I assigned one address to two decoders to make it simple, wont that defeat any benefits gained by each decoder's ability to work together? Isnt that why we have the ability to call up "Slave" or "Helper" behavior functions? Two decoders + Two motors, I dunno - sounds like a recipie for sibling rivaltry.(Spelling?)

[scubaterry]

safety valve- I program each loco individually before locking them. I program the primary A unit to my satisfaction. Then putting it on the track I match each additional loco to it. I figure if a loco can make two trips around the track and stay within four inches of the A unit then I am good to go. Once all four are programmed the same i lock decoders and mu them up. I don't think I am loosing any abilities by using the same address. Nothing that I have noticed anyway. The only alternative is using different addresses which eats up more throttle space and makes it a tad more complicated with different address to juggle.
terry[8D]

[johncolley]

I have a Stewart FT ABBA that I used to routinely pull 65 cars on a club layout with 24"r curves and some 1.5-2% grades...no problems! Since the layout's demise i have switched one of the B units to dummy full of sound. I can still pull 50 cars on level track with only 3 units powered.

[scubaterry]

One of my favorite sounds on my layout is the ALCO engines idling in and out of sync. The most enjoyable sight is seeing a bunch of F units lashed up. Just something about that tickles me.
terry[8D]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

One of my favorite sounds on my layout is the ALCO engines idling in and out of sync. The most enjoyable sight is seeing a bunch of F units lashed up. Just something about that tickles me.
terry[8D]

Your talking about other Alcos, the Fs are EMD.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by CurtMc

We are what allow you to use models not toys

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Sigh.....I hate nitpickers

David

Another Shake-and-baker.

Ive been bashing locos for 20 years, and have NEVER refused to buy a loco because of a little flaw....I just work around them. Aparently, wana-be model railroaders like you need to have a 'perfect' loco out of the box or you start crying.

David

I would never pay that much for something that is so wrong. Have you acually seen how screwed up the WM F unit was? If it was some close out or a bargain that had potential then go for it. I enjoy kitbashing and superdetailing, but I don't want to have to do it on a new piece that should be right in the first place.
Some don't care to or have the time or ability to do as you do, so to each his own, Why ba***hem over it. I am lazy at times and like to pull one out of the box, am I a Want-a -Be modeler as well?
Bob K.

[cspmo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]

OK I forgot about them.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE:
I would never pay that much for something that is so wrong. Have you acually seen how screwed up the WM F unit was? If it was some close out or a bargain that had potential then go for it. I enjoy kitbashing and superdetailing, but I don't want to have to do it on a new piece that should be right in the first place.
Some don't care to or have the time or ability to do as you do, so to each his own, Why ba***hem over it. I am lazy at times and like to pull one out of the box, am I a Want-a -Be modeler as well?
Bob K.

My point being....he said that people like him are responsible for making me a modelrailroader as opposed to a man playing with toys. My point is that he is COMPLETELY wrong and out of line. There are currently NO Canadian-correct locos out there right now, and with his thinking, Im playing with toys because they are not available out of the box.......he is wrong.

I am a Model-railroader. I model trains. I dont buy them, I make them. Ive been doing it for a long time now. What I dont need is some wanna-be comming on here telling me that because he is crying to mfgs about a few little flaws in their products, he is responsible in making me what I am today. That is complete BS. Also, the attitude that 'if it aint perfect, it aint worth buying" is just sad. He is a perfect example of a crying-nitpicker that makes MFGs not want to put out new products. He is NOT a model railroader, rather a Shake and Baker.

Nuff Said

David

If that was indeed a slam to modelers like yourself, I agree. I'm just not sure it was meant in that way. The WM release was a total mess. BLI oviously did "0" research for the paint and artwork. If it was only details like repositioning horns or even adding dymamics that wouldn't have been too bad. I realize that there is very little short of brass that comes even close to your prototype- This reason is what has made you the modeler you are-necessity or settle for less.
Bob K.