Who says a you can't cram a lot into a 4x8?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Not meaning to be mean but the layout you are proposing isn't all that great..It would be a better choice for a logger or mine railroad operation since its calls for steep grades and sharp 15" curves...[:D]

1870's steam would have no problem with the turns, however, without traction tires, the 4% grade might be a problem.

[BRAKIE]

Texas Zepher,If you will look more closely there is a track that can be used as a inbound/outbound track on this layout.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg


Not meaning to be mean but the layout you are proposing isn't all that great..It would be a better choice for a logger or mine railroad operation since its calls for steep grades and sharp 15" curves...[:D]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix
This is the best 4x8 I have ever seen-
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

For a single level plan it isn't bad. Sort of like a yard, a main, and a branch spur. The trains can only enter the yard in one direction. From the other direction the train would have to "back in". It just has no industries other than on the branch.

I think I like the one Spacemouse dug up earlier better. It can be operated as a point-to-point so the trains really have somewhere to go to. And then here is one I designed for Harely on this thread last summer. In many ways similar to the one you like so much except it doesn't have as massive a "yard". A 1870s one with three towns the train can go to:

Yes, as I recall that center loop IS 15" radius. And I don't know why, by this version is missing the turn table in the upper town. I think this was a draft.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13
Wouldn't the inside track use 15" curves? But otherwise it isn't a bad layout plan.
Alexander

Not according to the published plan in the December, 1994 Model Railroader. Those are 18" on the inside, 22" on the outside, with fitter straights. There also a bit of flextrack in the plan.

But while we're on the topic, here's a great example of one of the challenges with 4X8s. Adding only a foot to the width would allow broader curves and/or slightly eased curves with flextrack. Adding a foot or two to the length would allow for more interesting operations and help eliminate the funky switchback.

I submit that the main reason 4X8s are popular is that it's the standard size of a sheet of plywood and folks are afraid to mess with it. If the standard size of a sheet of plywood was 5X9, that would be the "sacred sheet" that nobody wanted to violate. And the HO layouts built on them would be better, IMHO.

Better yet, if people could get over their fear of carpentry, we'd see more 5X9, 5X10, boat-shaped, L-shaped, and other variations on island-style layouts that would be better foundations for long-term interest in HO. Any of those could be placed on casters, which is one of the canards people suggest for preferring the 4X8.

Regards,

Byron

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix
[This is the best 4x8 I have ever seen-
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

As i posted earlier, but it seems not to have been read:

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

I believe you will find that particular track plan is the "Red Wing Division" project railroad from MR, published in the Dec, 1994 issue.

One may order reprints from Kalmbach. The plan may also have been featured in other Kalmbach books.

I think you'll find that a number of the Gateway NMRA designs are from MR published plans.

Regards,

Byron

[swoodnj]

I've read this thread with great interest. I'm currently "layout-less", and am ready to start building. I've got one small spare room to use, about 9 1/2 x 11. The room has a double wide closet, two windows on one wall, and obviously a door. I could do an L or U shaped plan, but to go all the way around the room would involve more time and carpentry skills than I have available.
While I do enjoy switching, like many others I would not want to have a switching only layout. I work some long hours, and sometimes just watching a train roll along is enjoyable, if not therapeutic.
I've contemplated a return to N scale, but I really enjoy custom painting and superdetailing diesels. Yes, I know it can be done in N, I've done it. But it's much more enjoyable in HO. And I'm having a blast with DCC sound on my little test track.
So, I've been contemplating a 4 x 8 in this room with one of the short sides up against a wall. Since time is tight I could get up and running fairly quickly. And if I got ambitious I could put a small yard off on an extention.
If you guys haven't visited the gateway nmra site I highly recommend it, they've done some great stuff in 4 x 8 and smaller.

Steve W

[IRONROOSTER]

Gateway Division has a lot of small layouts they have built over the years http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

The reversing loop in plan 26 from 101Track Plans allows for a point to loop operation. You make up a train in the yard in the middle, run it around the oval some number of times, through the reversing loop and back into the yard. You can certainly leave out the reversing loop, but then I think that there are better plans available.

Wiring isn't too hard, Atlas makes a special controller for reverse loops. DCC has a module for reverse loops also.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

QUOTE: so i am breaking a few rules with the yard lead But it is the only way that i can do this trackplan.

Not true at all. I wish I had the time to do some explaining. BTW Not having a yard lead may eventually be a major bottleneck.
This is the best 4x8 I have ever seen-
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

Wouldn't the inside track use 15" curves? But otherwise it isn't a bad layout plan.
Alexander

[Ibflattop]

Maybe the yard is on a 4x8.......

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: so i am breaking a few rules with the yard lead But it is the only way that i can do this trackplan.

Not true at all. I wish I had the time to do some explaining. BTW Not having a yard lead may eventually be a major bottleneck.
This is the best 4x8 I have ever seen-
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

[Anonymous]

well...
havent really sketched it out yet but i designed a 500$layout which includes Benchwork plywood foam walthers buildings scenery water and smaller accesories last night
Its basically a oval, angled to the edge so its not straight on
a passing siding with a freigt station on the passing siding and a passenger or the main
2 spurs
1 leads ot the coal yard while the other leads to a Grain Co.
the grain turn out is a facing point trnout so you would need to se off the cars for the coal and then run back to the poassing siding and wait for passenger train to pass before heading to the grain mill while facing the other direction, or do the whole thing the opposite way delivering the grain first
This is single control with a MRC Tech 4 200
the roster includes an RDC a trainman GP40 a trainman 50ft + 40ftboxcars, hoppercar,centerflow, and caboose for 120$
The day starts out where the freight rolls ofut of the staging and heads into town, At the passenger station the RDC is waiting,
The freight then goes to deliverr the coal, the passenger waits at the passenger station on the main because the freigt is pulling off the passing siding
Then when the frieght retursn a short time later power is shut off while the RDC is sent around (then sent off on a switch which leads into a tunnel on the side for staging
The loco runs around its train and head out to the grainmill delivering the cneter flow
The freight returns to the passing siding and after delivering the 2 boxcars to the freight house and gets back up to the caboose, the RDC comes out of hiding and continues its trip as power is shut off to the passing siding, when the RDC gets back to the passenger station power is turned on to the Passing siding and the loco and caboose head to staging
for added fun allready have 1 of the 2boxcars at the Freigth station
after they have delivered all cars and are left with caboose or caoose andboxcar the freight goes back into hiding, You can also add some laps in between set outs
etc and when the freights done the RDC has the main to its self
If ya want I can make a trackplan to show here f anybodys interested,
Simple layout+lots of fun for a little less that 500$

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama
That's a crossing, not an up-and-over.

Even a better reason to redo that layout.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Frankly I would do away with that reverse track..You just gotta to know its uses a 3-5% grade in order to get up and over the other tracks.I would also do away with any hidden tracks.

That's a crossing, not an up-and-over.

[BRAKIE]

Frankly I would do away with that reverse track..You just gotta to know its uses a 3-5% grade in order to get up and over the other tracks.I would also do away with any hidden tracks.Hold those thoughts..I would just redo the layout.[:D]

[Anonymous]

I don't want to sound rude, but what more could you want with industry? You do know that with a small town, and the current industrial buildings, you'll have no more room!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I know this is not what you want to hear, but slow down and think things through. You are about to invest a lot of money and time into this project. It only makes sense that the better you plan, the better the layout will be. Sure your first layout is where you make your mistakes, but why make mistakes that can be avoided.

Do some research and study on track design. Read Track Planning for Realistic Operations by John Armstrong. It will give you a background for ways to design layouts that will keep you interested for years instead of ones that you will tire of before you finish.

Check out this layout from John Armstrong.

Now this is packing a lot into a 4 x 8.



And here is a workshop on how to run realistic operations on that layout, by Byron Henderson.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id39.html

Doesn't that one have a reverse loop? how hard are they to wire? Would it majorly affect me if i removed it and added more industry tracks?

[jecorbett]

Let me just say that regardless of what plan you finally settle on, a yard with a few long tracks will serve you much better than one with lots of short tracks. Short tracks work for industrial spurs but there isn't much point to having a classification track that will only hold 1 or 2 cars. I think the plan posted by SpaceMouse is an excellent choice with lots of potential for operation. Think about how your layout is going to operate. Trains will be made up in your yard, head down the mainline and then distribute cars to industries and then the process is reversed as cars are picked up, taken back to the yard to be reclassified. This can be done by one train or two separate trains. You could add a passenger train to the mix for additional interest. There are software packages that will allow you to simulate operations on your layout design before you lay one piece of track. If you don't want to invest in that, you can walk through your operations on a paper layout. Just make sure there is enough length on the various tracks to allow you to make the moves you are planning.

[SOU Fan]

If you want alot of track crammed into a 4x8 look at the june 1977 MR. There is a guy who has a 3 level HO/HOn3 layout.

[Anonymous]

If you have the December edition of MRR, read the artical titled "10 Steps to a better layout." Then, read rule # 2!

[cuyama]

I believe you will find that particular track plan is the "Red Wing Division" project railroad from MR, published in the Dec, 1994 issue.

One may order reprints from Kalmbach. The plan may also have been featured in other Kalmbach books.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

This is much better.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

Is there anywhere i could get that trackplan for free?
Alexander

Alexander, try writing to the NMRA Gateway group http://www.gatewaynmra.org/contacts.htm they are a good bunch of guys and I am sure that they would be willing to help if someone still has the plan. They make a new model most years and raffle it off. I have seen several of these layouts at the various train shows in the area. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

Common guys. Just look at the photo and use your Atlas program. It's a no-brainer.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffrey-wimberly

My first HO layout was 4 x 8

As was mine. Now when ever I have to build a 4x8 for myself, it is always in N scale so I can cram in alot.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alexander13

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

This is much better.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

Is there anywhere i could get that trackplan for free?
Alexander

Alexander, try writing to the NMRA Gateway group http://www.gatewaynmra.org/contacts.htm they are a good bunch of guys and I am sure that they would be willing to help if someone still has the plan. They make a new model most years and raffle it off. I have seen several of these layouts at the various train shows in the area. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

This is much better.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

That one's nice, too.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

This is much better.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

Is there anywhere i could get that trackplan for free?
Alexander

[SpaceMouse]

I know this is not what you want to hear, but slow down and think things through. You are about to invest a lot of money and time into this project. It only makes sense that the better you plan, the better the layout will be. Sure your first layout is where you make your mistakes, but why make mistakes that can be avoided.

Do some research and study on track design. Read Track Planning for Realistic Operations by John Armstrong. It will give you a background for ways to design layouts that will keep you interested for years instead of ones that you will tire of before you finish.

Check out this layout from John Armstrong.

Now this is packing a lot into a 4 x 8.



And here is a workshop on how to run realistic operations on that layout, by Byron Henderson.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id39.html

[BRAKIE]

This is much better.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

[jeffers_mz]

Alexander, first off, that long track along the upper edge of the layout is your key to future expansion. Hang on to it if there's a chance you will add onto this layout later. You might even consider adding a second one. You do have to think about having a derailment here, it wll probably cost you a loco or more if it happens, but a plexi guardrail or an embankment can save the situation. On my layout trains traverse these areas at channel speed dead slow, and I don't leave them parked there. Remember, a 4x8, aka a 48x96, can easily become a 51x96 with an 8' 2x4 and about four three inch screws.

Second, you can avoid the need for a dedicated run around track by taking either one of the existing yards, and reversing it left to right, a mirror image. Be aware, which ever way you go will set your direction of operations to some extent. The way it is now, a train will pull out of one yard, and after a few laps on the main, will pull nose first into another yard, where the locomotive will have a hard time dropping any cars and getting back out.

The more variations you try out now, the better and smoother things will work later on, don't be afraid to run through a hundred variations if that's what it takes, then you won't be stuck wondering "what if" later on.

If you haven't already, consider putting casters underneath your benchwork. It's a little extra work, and requires beefed up diagonal leg braces, but it allows you to run trains with the layout tight to walls or a corner, and only slide it out when you need to work on or access the other side. I just slid mine out from the walls today, for the first time in several months, because it's time lay plaster. This slows down hallway traffic to some extent, but I planned around it. I was ready to start a couple weeks ago, but the long suffering furnace here finally gave out, so I had to get the new one in before tackling plaster on the layout. Now I have heat, (just in time for summer naturally), and soon we'll have a layout with terrain too.

Hang in there, good times coming.

:-)

[Anonymous]

I would reconsider the track that runs right along the edge - is there even room for a decent ballast profile?

And yes, you can shove a 4x8 against the wall and still reach everything - shove one of the <short> sides.

I believe shelf, island, and doughnut layouts all have their time and place, but how come no one mentions the aisle requirements for any but the island? If you're not considering outside-access aisles for the doughnut, then it's really just another way of saying "around-the-walls".

And shelf layouts need the same 18" - 24" aisles, so the 24" - 30" shelf footprint is really 42" - 54".

[Anonymous]

Ok, so i am breaking a few rules with the yard lead But it is the only way that i can do this trackplan. What is wrong with the industries/ I can't see a problem with them?

Thanks
Alexander