Let's Talk about 4 x 8's...

[Anonymous]

Maybe I should put it this way:

Around-the-walls style requires total dedication of "model railroad area" to the space used.

Although a 4 x 8 may require "walk-around-room", it can also get shoved out of the way when you need to cut some lumber in the garage, fix your bike, etc.

I'm definitely still a fan of around-the-walls style layouts, but I'm wondering if they'll fit in with my other garage needs.

I will say this: If I was in N scale, I would no-doubt have a shelf layout. N scale is small enough that you could have return loops within a 2.5 or so wide shelf. That is awesome, and extremely tempting.

Unfortunately, my heart is in HO, so I'm stuck with it! Arggghhh!

[BRAKIE]

ereimer,I fully agree that a round the walls is better even allowing for the area for the turn back curves but,common sense must prevail in some cases..These cases never get mention during the trashing of a 4x8 in favor of the round the walls layout.Some modelers RENT their homes or apartments and can't use the round the walls designs for oblivious reasons.Then you may have modelers that relocate on a routine bases again no need to leave holes in the walls from bracing.

[jbloch]

I'm planning a 6 X 12 in my basement for exactly the reason Ironrooster alludes to: I want broad curves (plan on doing 30 and 32 inch radius ovals)--my basement area is about 14 X 16 so fortunately will have room to do it. Still, seems like a 4 X 8 is OK and you can still do alot with it--I just wanted to have broad curves both for the visual appeal and the ability to have long passenger cars and locos if I want them (no, I don't plan a Big Boy!!).

Jim

[ereimer]

let's do the math ...
a 4x8 layout requires space all around it so you can access it from all sides because none of us can reach across 4 feet to rerail a car or engine . assuming a 2 foot aisle all around our 4x8 means we need an 8x12 room to put it in .
a 4x8 is 32 square feet . if you build the layout as a 2 foot shelf around the walls of that 8x12 room (leaving a 4x8 space in the middle for operators) you end up with 64 square feet of space ! yes that's double the 4x8 and you're not using an inch more space in the house . if you build it as an 18" wide shelf around the room and put it at chest height for the best viewing angle , the layout almost doesn't take any space in the room at all , because you'll use the space under it for storage

you have to determine if you can design something like that for your particular space , it doesn't work out for everyone . there is another advantage ... with the 4x8 you have to walk around it to get to the other side , with the shelf layout you really just have to turn around and take a step to get to the other side

of course if you think you may be moving again then the 4x8 can make more sense , it's a lot easier to move than a shelf layout , and you're more likely to have room for it at a new location

[BRAKIE]

cuyama said: Although I somehow sense that you may not actually be interested, I'll tell you anyway. My current N scale switching layout is 18" by 6 feet.
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Your mistaken..If I wasn't interested I would have not ask.[:D] Nice size switching layout..Why? Well,to be honest those that usually doesn't have a layout or has a basement empire are among the first to trash a 4x8 foot layout.
However in your case I was mistaken..[;)][:D]

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan
I'm not positive, but pretty sure I have to have continuous running.

I never said that you should not have continuous running. Just that there are probably better ways to do it in the space you have than the 4X8 HO sacred sheet.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
cuyama,Rember this..A 4x8 foot layout beats no layout or a limited industrial switching layout..

Sorry, I guess I didn't make my point very well. I'm saying that if one has space for a 4X8 and the necessary aisles, they have space for something potentially more satisfying.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
Now what size is your layout? Basement size or none at all?

Although I somehow sense that you may not actually be interested, I'll tell you anyway. My current N scale switching layout is 18" by 6 feet.


I'm building an N scale layout to share the garage with a family car.
hendoweb.org/ohb

But thanks for asking!

[Anonymous]

Cuyama,

I appreciate your comments, and have enjoyed a lot of your work on your site and in MRP.

I'm definitely not afraid of carpentry. I'm just afraid of a "monster in the garage". I am not a "full time MRR'er", and my interest comes and goes over time (into it for 6 months, not into it for 3, etc.". So I don't want to have to "commit" a huge section of my garage to the hobby.

When I get "in the mood", I want to be able to watch some trains run, as opposed to just switching. Nothing against switching layouts - those are some of the most realistica layouts I've seen.

I'm not positive, but pretty sure I have to have continuous running.

[BRAKIE]

As far as 22" those are decent home size curves for those that doesn't have room for any layout bigger then a 4'x8'..There is no shame in using a 22" curve over the tighter18"...IF one can go for the next size in my book thats a 5 'x 9' layout then by all means go fer it.
As for me I would be plum tickle pink if I had room for a 4x8!!!


cuyama,Rember this..A 4x8 foot layout beats no layout or a limited industrial switching layout..
Now what size is your layout? Basement size or none at all?

[cuyama]

I've kvetched about the limitations of the 4X8 in HO quite often.

I remain convinced that in 9 out of 10 cases, there is a better solution in the same (real) space. "Real" space as in aisles, access, etc. "Better" as in more realistic, better operating potential, more long-term interest, as a foundation for scenery, etc.

The one thing the 4X8 has going for it is that it does not violate the sacred sheet by cutting it up. For the carpentry-phobic, this has some attractiveness. But there are many other ways to build layouts today (such as foam) that don't involve carpentry. And circular saws and jigsaws are cheap and/or widely available for loan from friends.

The traditional 4X8 limits the radius of the end curves in HO and makes much of the layout curved track. Much of the track must crowd the edge of the layout. Staging, a benefit to many layout concepts, is tricky. And so on.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but feel it's only fair to point out that two of the people boosting HO 4X8s in this thread found limitations in the form-factor themselves. Spacemouse had to add a chunk to his 4X8 to accomodate staging. On his website Harold describes extending his 4X8 around the room for more satisfying operation.

IMHO, CARRfan would be better served to look at different configurations, including slightly wider boat-shaped tables, tables built as an "L", etc. Most of these could be put on casters and all would offer a more satisfying long-term layouts.

Again, just my opinion, but thinking "outside the sheet" will almost always result in a layout that better serves the owner's interests, whatever they are. (Unless they are members of the "Protective Order of the Sacred Sheet" fraternal organization).

I don't intend any disprespect or criticism of those who have built and enjoy their 4X8 HO layouts -- good for you. There are just lots of other options that may be considered.

regards,

Byron

[Tom Curtin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

Assuming you're in HO, I would make it 5x10 so you could use a larger radius. Otherwise I think a rectangular layout on casters is a great idea for multi using a space. Just make sure you use big wheels and all 4 corners swivel so it is easy to push around as you add stuff to it.
Paul

A double Amen to that. The biggest drawback to a 4x8, as I see it (and I'm surprised there has not been more comment about this in response to your invitation) is that you have to live with sharp curves. 22" radius will be your limit (22"radius sectional track was invented decades ago simply because that is the maximum that will fit on a 4x8). Perhaps this is not a problem to you --- I don't know what kind of equipment you want to run --- but it will knock you out of a number of options such as full length passenger cars.

A 5x10, as suggested in the post I am quoting here, will at least allow you 27 inch radius, perhaps 28 inch, which is a considerable improvement.

[Anonymous]

RedGrey - very interesting. I was actually thinking about that, and using the curves to actually represent curves that are present on the two scenes I'm thinking about modelling.

[Anonymous]

how about 5x8? if you use foam board just cut one in half length wise, that gives you two 30 inch halves of layout to work with and allows for a larger radius on your curves. it'll only take up a little more space, but give you a lot more layout.

[RedGrey62]

The only suggestion I can offer is maybe put the backdrop diagonal versus end to end. That would give one end on each side a deeper area to have switching, industries or scenery.

Rick

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the ideas rrgrassi!

However, as I mentioned above, I'll be using "my half" of the garage for other things as well.

This sort of restricts my size to 4 x 8, or a longer shelf layout without room for return loops.

Everyone throws around the word "return loop" quite loosely, but the loops of a "dogbone" take up about 6ft of length in HO. This quickly turns a 20ft long space into an 8ft long module with two huge return loops on each end.

[rrgrassi]

A standard size 2 car garage should be 20' w x 20-24' l. You could do a 4 x 16, or a 5 x 16, or a 6 x 16 as well. Rolling the setup is a good idea. You could also design a fold up, stored on the garage wall, or design a winch and pulley lifting system. You could also do a modular set up where you can do switching and continual running.

[Anonymous]

Harold - that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

In fact, I was staring at that very picture for a bit before starting this thread.

It looks like you're back to On30, huh?

With so many things going on in my life, I feel like even a 4 x 8 with a few sidings, handlaid track, and some nice buildings - divided into two scenes just like Harold's, will keep me busy for years.

[hminky]

You mean a 4x8 like this.



Visit us at:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/

Thank you if you visit
Harold

[cwclark]

this is strictly my opinion, but I've had lots of experience in the hobby over the last one year shy of 30 years and 4 x 8's only lead to expansion....since 1977 i've built 3 different 4 x 8's , a double 4 x 8 that turned into a dogbone layout, a 15 x 20, a 5 x 10 and just started a 23 x 25 layout just two years ago...I two moved quite often and between the moves and one nasty divorce i've always had the urge to add on to any layout I've ever built... i've done them in spare bedrooms, garages, and even an old garage converted into an egg cooler reefer ...this time I finally got smart about the hobby that I truly love and did some planning....I live in an area of the country where basements are few and far in between, the idea spot for a MRR...when my wife and i finally decided to move into the house we plan on spending our last days in, I put a lot of thought into what kind of house it would be so that i could satisfy my desire to build MRR's....I looked at so many houses that it practically wore out the tires on my pick-up truck but i knew that the house i was going to purchase would have enough room for a nice size layout...we looked for over 6 months and then, there it was, i finally found a house that had the room i needed for a MRR...it had an attached garage for my wife's stuff and a separate detached building that would become the train room....i'm glad I put some thought into it this time because the out building is all mine for trains and trains only...best move i've ever made...the new layout is going to be plenty big enough and I won't be encouraged to build onto a layout that always ends up too small for my taste and "adding on" will not become an issue in a space i really don't have room for.......chuck

[jeffers_mz]

Wow, Spacemouse, you've made a ton of progress since the last pics I saw of your layout. That was just after you'd set the stone walls between the upper and lower levels.

Looking good!

:-)

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Not bad, Chip

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

...There's always a walk-in option, but then the layout really becomes only semi-portable....A 4 x 8 on casters could easily be shoved out of the garage when I need the space for something else....I think purely switching layouts look really cool with their linear design, but I just don't think I'll be satisfied without continuous running.
Thoughts?

Good luck with the move CARRfan.
Do what ever works best for you in your situation and don't worry about anyone getting snooty about YOUR 4x8 layout.
You didn't say what scale you chose, but N scale is well suited for a 4X8.

[IRONROOSTER]

Assuming you're in HO, I would make it 5x10 so you could use a larger radius. Otherwise I think a rectangular layout on casters is a great idea for multi using a space. Just make sure you use big wheels and all 4 corners swivel so it is easy to push around as you add stuff to it.
Paul

[harrisburg]

I have a four by eight layout . I enjoy every evening.. Thanks tim

[jeffers_mz]

I've got a 4x8 on castors, I like it. A prime concern with these seems to be reachability, or else space for a walkaround aisle. With wheels you get the best of both worlds. Push it against the wall to make room, roll it out for access. Reachability wise, if I have a derailment on the far side of the table, I have no problems reaching clear across. Shorter arms may make this more of a liability, but the castors address that if need be. There can be some problems with vibration when you roll the unit around, I use clear styrene sheets under my figures and they survive transitions reasonably well. I don't leave trains on elevated track when rolling, otherwise it isn't much of a problem.

A caveat with rollers and garage floors, the concrete is usually not flat, and can be deliberately sloped for drainage. Pushing the edge of the grade envelope, 4 or 5% runs the risk that floor tilt will exceed the pulling capacity of your locomotives.

I went with a track plan that allows for easy expansion. Current projections envision three 4x8 modules, with a 1x4 L shaped extension, to fit a ten by 30 foot space in a planned outbuilding. 18" curves leave plenty of room for a pair of access/interchange tracks along one side, storage and staging for now, four access points for easy expansion later on.

Future modules will have a deck heigth established for use with full plywood sheets. I may put two inches of foam atop that, or may just cut out the few areas needing below grade terrain, but the time and expense saved starting with simple easy benchwork make this a much more attractive option to me.

No matter how you slice it, a four by eight offers scenery depth in more directions than a shelkf or ariound the wall type layout. I think a lot of the objection comes from the fact that 90% of the 4x8s out there are built by people who don't know much about the hobby, slap a sheet of plywood down to run some trains, and end up with more of a toy than a well detailed layout. But a decent plan and the same time and effort invested can yield whatever standards you want, regardless of the size of the lumber used in construction. Some people will never be able to overlook the shape of your layout. If you can find a way to deal with them, the rest is up to you.

[BRAKIE]

Here are some small layouts.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm

[SpaceMouse]

I've been at the top of the trashing the 4 x 8 heap lately and I've backed off a lot. Although I loop as much as anyone. much of my track is hidden from view with scenic blocks rather than backdrops. In my case, I think I have more options.

Now I still have problems in terms of fuctionality and reach, but I've devised workarounds.

I have two "towns" Rock Ridge a mining community, and Train City (hey, my son named it) the center of local commerce. Here is an overall view of the plan:



And here is how it looks today:



Rock Ridge



Train City



These town are divided visually in two ways. The ballast is two different colors representing the local color of rock. There are trees planted in a dividing the towns with a view block. The areas that are painted green will planted with trees in the near future. As more trees are planted, Rock Ridge will appear and a forest hillside from Train City, and Train City will appear as a valley city from Rock Ridge.





It is now 5 x 8 as I have added 3 staging tracks. That doesn't mean that I don't think for the same space a 0, C or G shape shelf layout isn't a better use of real estate.

[Anonymous]

My wife and I have our house for sale. We've move a bit over the past few years, but plan to be relatively "settled" after our next move. (we're 30-ish, with a baby boy).

We'll likely have a 2-car garage, of which I'll get one half. I have to share this half with other things - drums and workbench/shop area.

I'm really thinking a 4 x 8 may be the way to go. A 4 x 8 with a backdrop down the center (much like the layout in MRP 2006).

This will give me two scenes, as well as a purely "linear" looking design - you don't see any looping action, etc.

Yet, I'll still have continuous running on a small layout.

The layout could be used as a "divider" between my "dirty" section of the garage (tools, bench, etc.), and my "drums" area of the garage (nice music equipment that I don't want dust around, etc.)

There seems to be a lot of 4 x 8 hating these days, but with a scenic divider down the center of it, it meets a lot of the same qualifications of other linear layouts, only smaller.

There's always a walk-in option, but then the layout really becomes only semi-portable.

A 4 x 8 on casters could easily be shoved out of the garage when I need the space for something else.

I think purely switching layouts look really cool with their linear design, but I just don't think I'll be satisfied without continuous running.

Thoughts?