Let's Talk about 4 x 8's...

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffers_mz

Somebody better tell my 4x8 that it requires 140 square feet of floor space, because it seems to be content with a mere 32.I

32 sq.ft? so put it into a 4X8 room. Haven't go one? OK push it into a corner. Haven't got one those? OK, you have an 8ft.X 4ft. Island surrouded by water - that you apparently don't walk on. [;)]

If one lives in a mobile home or room with walls 8 or 10 feet apart, one can use the standing room to reach the bathroom, bedroom, or any other destination, including the front door. I'm just not that resourceful.

BRAKIE: An 'N' scale layout on a 36"X80" hollow door makes more sense for those that have dimensional challenges to face.

[Anonymous]

I googled it, and here are some pictures:

http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?L=calbirdman%40email.com&P=&AID=974764&G=Y

Here's some more info:

http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?id=853

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
I had forgotten your interest in Santa Barbara. You going to do the Fig tree?

Enlighten us New Englanders who think Worcester, MA (pronounced wooster) is very far into the wild, wild west. What's the Fig Tree?

There is a fig tree near the downtown train station that is the largest deciduous tree in North America. It is several hundred of years old and is about 15-20 feet in diameter.

[MisterBeasley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
I had forgotten your interest in Santa Barbara. You going to do the Fig tree?

Enlighten us New Englanders who think Worcester, MA (pronounced wooster) is very far into the wild, wild west. What's the Fig Tree?

[SpaceMouse]

I got my BA from UCSB. That is the only memory I have of the place. I only vaguely remember downtown.

[Anonymous]

I don't know chip, modelling the fig tree would be quite difficult. Maybe it will show up as a photograph on the backdrop!

Yeah, I think I'll model Santa Barbara. It's where I've lived & worked off and on since I graduated from high school (went to school at UCSB), and I plan on living there again soon. That should make it really easy to get inspired to make my layout as realistic as I can, etc.

As you may recall chip, there's a passing siding through downtown - in front of the train station. This allows me to essentially model a double-track main, although it's really just a passing siding.

[SpaceMouse]

I had forgotten your interest in Santa Barbara. You going to do the Fig tree?

[Anonymous]

Alright, here's the type of design I'm currently leaning towards...

Please don't take the track plan too literally. The idea is there's a passenger station on the long leg of the "L" - this is the Santa Barbara, CA passenger station.

The rest of the layout will be frieght stuff. Today, no switching occurs in this area, but I plan to modern either present day, or 1996, just before SP disappeared. Or I could do like 2000 or so, when you'd often see both SP and UP equipment.

(I apologize to the more serious operations type people) - but I imagine watching freight and passenger trains go round-and-round, and doing some freight switching.

There will be more switching opportunities than what's currently shown.

The scale is HO

Minimum radius is 30" (except for the spurs)

Overall Size is 8ft x 10ft. The benchwork is 22" wide, except for the corner areas.

The grey portion will be removable - likely styromoam reinforced with 1 x 2's or something like that.

Layout height will be, well, high. (I forget what numbers I came up with in the garage a few days ago). I'll have a workbench, toolboxes, etc. underneath the layout so I could go about "normal life" in the same area as the layout. I could even make it "shadowbox" style with a curtain over it or something like that..

I should add, I've been very heavily influenced by Pelle Soeborg's layout coverage in MD the past couple years (as well as his previous 1998 cover story). As much as I'd like to think of myself as an operator type guy, I'm guessing I'll mostly enjoy "watching them run", with some switching thrown in for fun, but not as the main focus.

[MisterBeasley]

I started with a "virtual 4x8" when I first started working with track-planning software. I quickly found I couldn't get enough in, so I upgraded the layout size to 5x12. My layout must share the family room with, well, the family, so I put it on casters. For this kind of layout, 4x8 is a minimum in HO, but also 5 feet wide is a practical maximum so you can reach the center.

I agree with you on continuous running. For a one-man operation like mine, I typically am running 3 trains, one on each loop, and either a switching operation or bouncing my PCC car between the above-ground tracks and the subway lines. Gotta love DCC for that sort of thing.

Also consider the time it will take to build a layout. I've been in active construction for over a year now, and based on my rate of progress I expect to put the last of the pink foam under scenery in about another year. After that, I'm thinking of a fold-up staging yard, and I've left a few openings in the track plan for other extensions.

[jecorbett]

Let me put in my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation). There is nothing wrong with a 4x8 layout and you can have a lot of fun and some good operations with a well designed one. Just don't try to cram too much into it and be realistic about your selection of equipment. Large locos and full length passenger cars are probably not a good idea. Even if you can get them to handle the tight curves, they won't look good doing it and a large loco will look silly pulling a short train.

If I were to do a 4x8 I would definitely go with a full length scenic divider. In fact, I have planned to build a 4x8 with a winter scene as a Christmas layout for some time but not until I get my big layout reaonably complete.

[Anonymous]

I will say it again
My layout uses a grand total of 5x8 dedicatied walkway, and uses several other
acessways in my bedroom.
THE ONLY DEDICAITED ACESSWAY IS ONE DOWN ONE SIDE, AND IT IS LESS THAN ONE FOOT WIDE.

And i am quite a large kid, so it can be used as an example.

Alexander

[jeffers_mz]

Some have established residence for extended periods.

Your turn.

Please state the full nature of your layout, living arrangements, and relationships before expecting to continue this line of disussion.

I prefer to keep it a little more on topic, but in the end, what you post is your own decision.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RevMattCNJ
...A few years ago I built a layout based on the Turtle Creek Central series that was MR a few years back. It is a great track plan (made even better with my improvements). However, when I built it I planned on it just being for my kids. But operationally it turned out to be a whole lot more complex than I bargained for and I ended up really enjoying operating sessions. The layout can be operated as a point to point. I wound up keeping the basic 4 by 8 and adding to it...

I would be interested in seeing your modified track plan. I've been trying to noodle out a 4x8 with an extension, and the TCC keeps catching my attention.

[Don Gibson]

Mr. Tom Curtain:

A.(d) a little humor.

YOUR theory that a "caring spouse" would be "reasonably accomodating"... for a "reasonably carried on (male) hobby" is a reasonable assumption, but you didn't SAY where your layout was.

Jeffers,mz - I know your single and nice looking, but did any of those 5 come back? MAN does not exist on work alone.

ANY female modelers care to 'chip in'?

[Anonymous]

I am a contrarian in that I love a cleverly designed 4 by 8 layout that puts to rest all the arguments against them.

A few years ago I built a layout based on the Turtle Creek Central series that was MR a few years back. It is a great track plan (made even better with my improvements). However, when I built it I planned on it just being for my kids. But operationally it turned out to be a whole lot more complex than I bargained for and I ended up really enjoying operating sessions. The layout can be operated as a point to point. I wound up keeping the basic 4 by 8 and adding to it.

I also like the waterfront based 4 by 8's that have been in circulation these past few years.

[rrgrassi]

CARRfan,

I just got back on. Glad you liked the ideas. The garage behind the speeder is what I am still working on closing out, and I get a half space also. I'm planning on an around the wall and a 5x10 fold out. that will be interconnected only when the 5x10 is unfolded. I only get half of a garage also.

Fall and winter are when I get to enjoy my trains. Spring and summer find me out side working on the speeder, the yard, the cars, any out door projects, and the motorcycle. I have a 2 acre lot and am contemplating a 7 1/2 inch scale RR as well. So many ideas, so little money...

[jeffers_mz]

Well, to begin with, I hereby plead guilty to two counts of improper operation in the first degree, admitting that I did knowingly construct a layout in the dining room and further, did knowingly operate a woodshop in the kitchen. I throw myself on the mercy of the court and beg leniency for my heinous crimes.

Next, sawdust can be a real problem. Chopsaws and well designed orbital sanders seem to do well with dust collection systems, I just use a 10 amp 16 gallon shopvac and switch the hose from tool to tool as needed. Drilling operations aren't so easily constrained, but the shavings are large and don't travel very far.

Routing and ripping on the table saw though, generate a lot of fine dust which can and does travel as much as 20 feet from the tool, no matter how I rig up the vaccuum.

I keep paintbrushes around and uncontaminated with paint for cleaning the trains, park them in tunnels and under other cover to reduce the problem, and use a dust buster to vacuum the layout about once a week. When I can, I do the ugly stuff outdoors, and just live with a little dust when I have to rip or rout inside.

I have had real live females in my humble abode, and they don't seem to mind, at least not to the point of refusing invitations. They may posess a secret reluctance to marry an arch criminal like myself, but if that's the case, I match it with a secret sigh of relief. Pound for pound, drama for drama, I'll take my tools and toys over a steady diet of nagging any day.

When the jury returns with my sentence, I'll be down at the bar with Tim the Toolman, hoisting beers and discussing the relative merits of the Binford XK2000 vortex particulate seperator.

Thanks you.

[BRAKIE]

Originally posted by Don Gibson[/i]

WHEN we are married and Hobbetically inclined, we need to raise ourselves to the challenge:

The Livng room is for visitors,
Spent many enjoyable hour in the living room reading MR and drawing plans. I also had a work desk in the living room twice..I had to keep it neat-a reasonable request.


The dining table is off limits,

Perhaps.But,for years my late wife encourage me to use the dinning room table to work on my models just as long as I cover it and use a cheap cutting block to cut on..Later in our marriage she would join me there building structures.


The kitchen is for cooking,

Well that and some modeling work

An automobile won't fit in a bedroom (and if it could, you couldn't drive it).

\LOL! No comment needed.[:D]

So, for the rest of us there is N Scale. The alternative is to be single - or move to the midwest. A 4X8 in N scale is 2' X4'.


Actually Don,ithe current trend is a 36" x80" Hollow Core door for small layouts-Of course this same same door can make a nice HO industrial switching layout.


Most of the books out are for beginners.


And really not needed by anybody.[:D]

[Tom Curtin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson



WHEN we are married and Hobbetically inclined, we need to raise ourselves to the challenge:
The Livng room is for visitors,
The dining table is off limits,
The kitchen is for cooking,
An automobile won't fit in a bedroom (and if it could, you couldn't drive it).

So, for the rest of us there is N Scale. The alternative is to be single - or . . .

Well, Mr. Gibson, it sounds to me like you are either a)unmarried, b) unhappily married, or c) just sarcastic. I can't tell which. If it's a) or b) I offer you my condolences. Believe me, a caring spouse is more than happy to make some reasonable accommodation to a reasonably carried-on hobby, and most spuses are astute enough to see some value in a hobby that keeps his/her spouse at home.

To share with you all a story of my own spouse, I remember an instance years ago when I was talking to to her about the challenges of layout design, and she replied --- now I emphasize, this lady has never read a Model Railroading magazine or book in her life, before or since! --- "Why don't you design two decks?"

Since we currently live in a New York City hi-rise, I have to say my model railroading activities at the moment are kind of like the average 15 year-old's sex life, i.e., exclusively conversational.

Incidentally, I see mention of the very good ---- and I assume unfortunately out of print 101 Track Plans. I recall that has some good 4x8's . I was thinking of that book myself as I read down through this thread.

[Anonymous]

R. T. Poteet,

Very interesting post. Thanks for that.

You're not going to believe this, but I actually own ALL THREE of the books you mentioned. My Dad purchased them years ago, and we were actually starting an "HO Railroad That Grows" as a kid.

Actually, yes, the table saw in the garage was a bad example. I will actually just pull it out onto the driveway to use it - I do that now anyway.

There was actually a layout built per the "HO Railrod That Grows" track plan in MR in 2004. Unfortunately, that layout is a bit cramped for the era of loco's/rolling stock I want to run.

I'll try to get a chance today to post a pic of what I've got up my sleeve at the moment - an L-shape with a removable section to get the trains from one end of the L to the other. It's 8 x 10 overall, with 30" min radii.

[BRAKIE]

R. T. POTEET,Watch it brother or the layout police will get on you for mentioning the operators pit..You see those pits are frown upon by the all knowing layout planing experts/ expert wanna bes these days..

[R. T. POTEET]

Boy, I'll tell you this; this subject took on a life of its own since CARRfan introduced it at 11:30 on the 17th. As I write this that was only 37 hours ago; its picked up about one posting an hour since then.

CARRfan, probably the first two lessons which I learned in life was that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, and you can't squeeze nineteen gallons into an eighteen gallon gas tank. Your wanting to use this garage as a workshop, train room, as well as a space to store/play your drums strikes me as just a little bit busy!!

Now, I would never criticize your choice of a 4X8 for a layout. I am not a member of the 4X8 bashing fraternity; I've seen some dandy 4X8s in my life. But I primarily went to N-Scale because the space in the house I had at that time didn't really allow for my type of railroading in that 4X8 environement where I was forced to operate - at least not in HO. Remember, a 4X8 is going to allow for only (very) short trains, but that may be your preference. If I were designing a layout to fit into one half of a two car garage I think I would consider a doughnut shape. And I would utilized about six 24-36 inch by 60-72 inch modules mounted on A-Frames and stored out of the way when I wanted to beat my drums or run my table saw. I could run much longer trains than on a 4X8. A twenty four inch width would allow you to operated exclusively from the center "pit" because everything would be within reaching distance. You may be 7'6" tall for all I know in which case you would have no trouble at all in handling a 36 inch module.

The very first model railroading specific book I ever bought was a Kalmbach publication titled Practical Guide to Model Railroading published in either the late 50s or early 60s (I got it in about 1962 or '63). It has a dandy layout in there presented as giving the most operation in the minimal of space: loop-to-loop, an oval, or operation as a point-to- point or a point to loop layout. It requires a bit more space than an 4X8, and has two operating pits but it would adapt well to one of the short ends being pushed against one wall of the garage, it is rectangular so could be covered for (saw)dust protection, and the long side would fit within the width normally allocated to one half of a double car garage. I keep looking at this layout as an N-Scale project.

My second model railroading specific book was also a Kalmbach publication based upon a project railroad published in Model Railroader (???It could possibly have been a Model Trains feature). Its author was the renowned Linn Westcott (before he was renowned, by the way) and was titled HO Railroad That Grows. This book has been maligned (unfairly I believe) because the track-plan was overly simplistic and it did require a short stretch of 4% grade to get to a reverse loop that came cross lots above the center of the railroad. It had a drop-leaf yard (as has been discussed here in this topic). This book is long out of production but If one of your model rail acquaintances has a copy it is at least worth examining.

101 Track Plans has some interesting layouts for single car garages (which are usually just a little bit larger [read: wider] than one half of a two car garage).

Brother Space Mouse ask a very interesting question; just where do you expect all that sawdust to go when this garage is functioning as a woodworking shop. Just ordinary carried-on-the-wind dust is a problem indoors let alone in a garage. With a little work it is possible to (adequately) insulate a layout - I seem to recall a photo in MR(?) some years ago that showed a layout with a dust cover suspended across a bar supported by a framework on the short ends. This individual was, if I recall right, just trying to keep his layout from getting dusty. Dust is one thing; sawdust another and just throwing a loose sheet over a bar isn't going to hack it; its going to required fitting by someone with some sewing skills (your wife, maybe?)

Lotsa Luck!!

[Anonymous]

My 4x8 fits quite will in a bedroom, and it has 1 dedicatied acessway whitch is less than 1 foot wide. The other two are walkways within my room. in my case the 4x8 is the best use of the space.

Alexander

[jeffers_mz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RedGrey62


Severe Thunderstorms AND Trains, that covers all my bases (weather forecaster).

I would think that a piano (IIRC) hinge would work the best. After you line up the extension with the corner, the paino hinge could be fastened to the bottom of the frames of the 4X8 and the extension. A small section(s) of track would be used to bridge from teh layout to the extension, similar to how modules are connected.

Rick

Dime hail and more rain. No more flickers after the one this morning. Instead of surfing, I got everything off the layout except for the lowest two layers of foam.

My furnace is dead, nine year old house, been fighting with it for a couple years, taking singificant time and hassle since November. If I can just get the new one in here and installed the way is open to knock out plaster and tunnel linings for the lower level, which opens the way to finish up the terrain, but...the roof jack has to be replaced with the furnace, and we have had rain forecast for going on 20 days in a row now.

Ever heard of William Taylor or Mark Rust? In addition to trains, I play with some of the same stuff they do. Talked to the former by phone, interesting conversation.

After I get the terrain done, I'm thinking about adding a 24"x48" extension for staging. It'll have to be hinged, and I probably will use a piano hinge like you suggest.

What are the pros and cons of an extra piece of track, versus a butt joint, laid after the hinge is in place? The extension will have to be flipped down every two weeks, to allow my son to access his computer. Otherwise it will stay up. That's not a problem, I'll just drive the trains onto the layout proper and flip it down out of the way. The extra trains will obstruct operation, but I don't operate when the kids are over unless they want to, which erases the space conflict. They can choose what they want to do.

Right now the dual expansion tracks are unpowered at either end, no chance of an accident, and I'll probably add a dead man switch for those blocks. That end of the interchange/expansion tracks is scheduled for a much parger expansion in phase three, which means the flip up will still remain functional during phase two, on the other end.

That's the plan for now, it will probably evolve between now and the time it actually happens.

[xdford]

My layout has been a 4x8 for many years with operating wings off it! It's about what my time allows me to do and being tall, I can nearly reach all corners. If I had to rebuild, I would probably make much the same schematic and operation mode but on a 12 x 6 with an operating area in the middle. The plan I have is really good for a lot of operation provided I use my imagination or it can be simply therapeutic after a hard day. www.xdford.digitalzones.com FYI

Regards from Down Under

Trevor

[Don Gibson]

MZJ:

A 4X8 is a board one can put a RR on. Plans are out with products made to fit and $ell.

A 4X8's is a LARGE, not small Layout.
1. they're too large for most rooms.
2. 48" is a difficult reach. (Average arms are 31").
3. Most 'Toys' are put away when not in use.
4. Recreational equipment shouldgo into a 'REC.' room, or basement.
5. It shouldn't put a limit on our entrepreneurship or mentality.


WHEN we are married and Hobbetically inclined, we need to raise ourselves to the challenge:
The Livng room is for visitors,
The dining table is off limits,
The kitchen is for cooking,
An automobile won't fit in a bedroom (and if it could, you couldn't drive it).

So, for the rest of us there is N Scale. The alternative is to be single - or move to the midwest. A 4X8 in N scale is 2' X4'.


Most of the books out are for beginners.

[BRAKIE]

Let's see then..A 4x8 needs a 10x14 room with 3' aisle..Now the talk is a 5x9 foot that means a even bigger room that may not be advailable..Best to stick with a 4x8 since it will take less room.[;)]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NYCentral1

Ok, say you were going to build a 5 x 8 layout, what do you do about the top sheet, since the usually come in 4 ft widths? You could put in a 1 x 8 piece, but what do you do about the obvious seam?

The seem is in the plywood not the scenery. The seem is there only if you plan a plywood empire. I have two seems in mine, but I dare you to find them. Okay if you get down under the layout and look up.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NYCentral1

Ok, say you were going to build a 5 x 8 layout, what do you do about the top sheet, since the usually come in 4 ft widths? You could put in a 1 x 8 piece, but what do you do about the obvious seam?

Wood putty and some paint then the scenery, or you could use plaster cloth also but if you make the cut good the seem will be so small you can just use the putty or caulk.