Let's Talk about 4 x 8's...

[jeffers_mz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

Maybe I should put it this way:

Around-the-walls style requires total dedication of "model railroad area" to the space used.

Although a 4 x 8 may require "walk-around-room", it can also get shoved out of the way when you need to cut some lumber in the garage, fix your bike, etc.

I'm definitely still a fan of around-the-walls style layouts, but I'm wondering if they'll fit in with my other garage needs.

I will say this: If I was in N scale, I would no-doubt have a shelf layout. N scale is small enough that you could have return loops within a 2.5 or so wide shelf. That is awesome, and extremely tempting.

Unfortunately, my heart is in HO, so I'm stuck with it! Arggghhh!

They just aren't listening.

I think back when they first started, someone told them that shelf layouts always save space, it stuck, maybe because of the math posted earlier, maybe because whoever taught them thought that 4x8's cannot ever be "real" layouts, but whatever the reason, you've stated three times in this thread alone that you need to pu***he layout out of the way to play drums, work on the car, wa***he cat, whatever, and the response is always "4x8's waste space, instead of either coming up with new alternatives, or admitting that in some cases, a 4x8 is the best solution for the space available.

I think this fits the dictionary definition of "prejudice" and I don't think you will ever change it. That's what I was talking abiout earlier. There is a certain percentage of people involved in this hobby who will never, ever be able to get past "4x8" and will always judge your layout solely on the basis of it's dimensions.

Just to make a point, let's run three up to five.

A 4x8 layout can be operated using only 32 square feet of permanent space, and can be stored in exactly 32 square feet of space.

A 4x8 layout can be operated using only 32 square feet of permanent space, and can be stored in exactly 32 square feet of space.

Three, five, a hundred, repeat it a million times, and it isn't going to change anything. It might quiet the (non-)argument in this thread, but next week a new thread will open, ad the same folks will use the same arguments to "prove" that there is only one solution for those challenged for space, a shelf layout, and the four by eight is always, under any circumstances, a bad idea.



You have exactly two choices here.

1. Keep beating your head against the wall, trying to get approval from an unlikely source, or

2. Breeze right on by any opinion that ignores repeated statement of fact.

On the plus side?

Whole mountains, instead of thin slices.

:-)

[BRVRR]

I'll say it again,
My BRVRR is 4' x 10' in a 10' 6' x 9' 6" room. I have a double mainline, a 3-track engine facility, a 4-track industrial section, a separate siding for the grain elevator, a 2-track yard and a reverse loop. The train table is mounted on garage door rollers with the tracks on the walls. To get behind the layout I pull it away from the back wall and 'duck' actually 'crawl' under it. Inconvenient? Yes. Practical? I think so. The layout shares the room with my computer workstation, a large wall mounted book case and a 3-drawer filing cabinet. If the room didn't have a closet, which hides the only access to the main attic, and an entry door, I might consider an around the walls layout. Believe me, I have tried to come up with one that would give me all of the operational features I have now. I have even thought of a 'blind' extension into the attic space for another reverse loop. Not practical in Northeast Ohio. Eliminating the closet walls doesn't really improve the situation either. N-scale might solve my space problem, but they are too small for these old eyes to see or my ten-thumbs to work with, so HO and 4' x 10' it is. To paraphrase the tag line in my signature, "Its my layout."

[Anonymous]

I'm enjoying the discussion.

Another thing I do in the garage - cut my hair. (I'm a self-hair-cutting buzzed-head kind of guy - it's easy, and free).

I'm mentally beating down the doors of both around-the-walls and 4 x 8's. This discussion is helping get the ideas going...

[spidge]

I do model N-scale and restricked myself on each side with partitions. The layout is in the garage and since my dad is moving in it will also be a den like space. I mounted the layout on high brackets and have large wooden rolling boxes for storage underneath.
Check out my link under my signature.

[Anonymous]

Spidge,

I'm so jealous of you N-scalers. If I was in N, I'd be doing exactly what you're doing - an L-shaped layout with continuous running. Darn you!!!

[Anonymous]

I'm sure some of you are getting tired of this topic, as I've brought it up a couple times over the years.

I just dug up some old CAD files I was working on months ago, and came accross an idea I hadn't thought about for a long time.

It's an L-shaped "switching layout", but then there are "removable" sections that can make the L a full circle.

I should add that since the time I was playing with a configuration like this, I experimented in the garage with some cars, track & wood, and realized I want a pretty high layout. This was a new realization for me.

As a kid, I always kneeled down to make the trains right unde my nose. So why not just build it pretty high?

The beauty of this method is I could have a workbench right under the layout, partially eliminating my need to share the workbench space problem.

I was previously thinking layout in front of me, workbench behind me, all in about an 8 x 10 ft space.

But I could, instead have a really high layout, and a low workbench (basically made for sitting at instead of standing).

With some CAD sketches I've got going on, this would give me 26" min radius curves - oooh, just worked on it a bit. If I use building flats, or like 1/3 thick buildings, I could get it up to 30" radius.

This is including a double-track main. This is actually somewhat prototypical, because the area I'm modeling has a main line and a passing siding. (recently inspired by Joe Fugate's article in the new mag on painting passing track differently from the mainline track).

Sssssshhhh - although it's going to be modeled as a passing track, don't tell any hardcore modelers, but you might catch me running mainline trains in opposite directions so I could watch them as if they're on a double track main.

Hmmmmm....

Tomorrow (after some rest tonight from engineering work (with the occasional MRR forum browse/post, I'll get a pic into this thread).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

let's do the math ...
a 4x8 layout requires space all around it so you can access it from all sides because none of us can reach across 4 feet to rerail a car or engine...

Not entirely true. It is possible to butt one of the short sides against a wall and still reach everything from the aisles along the two long sides and the third short one. This changes the 'footprint' from an 8x12 to 8x10.

My layout space is a 4x9 'niche' in my garage. Because of an exterior door along one wall, I can't nestle something in there, so I'm noodling with the idea of a 5x8 with a 3x2 extension. See images below.





To keep the exterior door accessible, to allow for continous running, to still have some garage work space, and to provide as much access to the layout as possible, I stretched and bent and twisted and this is the best layout plan I have come up with. Any and all recommendations are welcomed and encouraged.

[RedGrey62]

Another idea I had pondered with the 4X8s I built. What about a 1 foot by roughly the table hieght extension that would be hinged off of one or even two corners for staging or fiddling. Almost like a drop leaf. Tempoaray leg or legs could be attached. Again, trying to keep in the spirit of a 4X8 but with some added operations.

Rick

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
ANY layout needs an sending point and destination. Example: A coal mine & Power Plant; A Citrus shipper and receiving sheds.The amount of track in-between is secondary. How many times around the loop before brain boredom sets in should be considered.

A contiuous loop going round and round may sound good, but the switching is where most of what's interesting is.

Don, I'm afraid that this often posed statement is largely untrue. The great majority of hobbyists, especially when they are in the newbie stage, are far more interested in seeing trains run without limitations than to switch cars endlessly. To them, and many of the rest of us, it is seeing trains on the move, not fiddled with over the span of just a few feet that is the "fun". Even for the more advanced hobbyist, "operations" is far from being the all consuming point of model railroading and this has been demonstrated by MR surveys for decades. In fact, MR once had an article breaking down the precise interersts of model railroaders (by L.Westcott?) and the category with the largest following was "rail fan", where a modeler enjoys just sitting back and watching his trains run.

CNJ831

[CNJ831]

To address another point, while a great many here advocate around-the-walls shelf layouts, one must appreciate they work only in a limited enviroment. Rarely are they practical outside of a basement or windowless room (which is rare in houses today). Nearly every room intended to be utilized by the occupants will have windows, closets, and an entrance door, making around-the-room shelf layouts impractical (especially if one is married and wishes to remain so!) if any continuous running is desired. As someone pointed out upstream, a room with such a layout must be totally dedicated to that one purpose. Simpler, freestanding, center-of-the-room arrangements allow full access to storage areas, windows, general entrance/egress and, while perhaps not so appealing to those of us who "operate", the design is much more logical, easier to build, and less limiting to the occupants of the residence.

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

Once again I will call attention to these layouts.As I have done in the past I challenge anybody to find fault with these small layouts.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm
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CNJ831,I have built round the wall layouts in spare bedroom..The windows didn't stop me..I built right past those windows like they wasn't there.[:D]
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jeffers_mz ,Before the layout experts/expert wanna bes started their "prejudice" against the 4x8 foot layout it was a highly acceptable layout size.However,as the years roll by and the thought of bigger is far better or shelf layout over 4x8 mentality took hold modelers was quite happy to build a 4x8 in their limited space now,I feel some are ashame to mention the size of their layout is 4x8 lease they are consider a "newbie" or ridiculed by their peers.Oddly some magazines help this "prejudice" along the way.
One can do math tell the cows come home and the chickens go to roost but,that won't change one iota if the space available is 32 square foot-4x8.

Even my favorite type of layout gets tiresome.Yup..Those industrial switching layouts get old especially since one can't set back and just watch 'em roll.
The round the wall layouts require a turn back space for curves(remember no 18" or 22" curves per the layout experts/experts wanna bes) or the layout will need to cross the door way.If that door is cross no simple duck under per the layout experts/expert wanna bes.
Know what I say? A 4x8 foot layout beats no layout if one is not into industrial switching and why bother coming on a forum asking about thoughts on a 4x8 footer with the well known prejudices against the 4x8? Why not be a outlaw and just build it? After all its your hobby and your space so,as the saying goes,dream it,plan it built it. I add this..Just do it.[:D]

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

let's do the math ...
a 4x8 layout requires space all around it so you can access it from all sides because none of us can reach across 4 feet to rerail a car or engine . assuming a 2 foot aisle all around our 4x8 means we need an 8x12 room to put it in .
a 4x8 is 32 square feet . if you build the layout as a 2 foot shelf around the walls of that 8x12 room (leaving a 4x8 space in the middle for operators) you end up with 64 square feet of space ! yes that's double the 4x8 and you're not using an inch more space in the house . if you build it as an 18" wide shelf around the room and put it at chest height for the best viewing angle , the layout almost doesn't take any space in the room at all , because you'll use the space under it for storage

This assumes that you have a dedicated 8x12 room, which many in the 4x8 crowd don't have. In my case, all i had was an open area in the center of a small, unfinished basement. i have to work around the laundry and storage shelves. The "aisles' are used for many purposes and could not be dedicated to just the layout.

Don't get me wrong... i'd LOVE to have a section of wall to build a layout against. it's just not possible at this time. we are thinking about remodeling the 'finished' half of the basement and if that clears up some wallspace, i may get what i want. but that's well into the future.

with that said... if i had half a garage to work with, i'd be very tempted to use the walls instead of a 4x8. use a dogbone for continuous running... and make them sectional so that i can take them when i move...

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

I just dug up some old CAD files I was working on months ago, and came accross an idea I hadn't thought about for a long time.

It's an L-shaped "switching layout", but then there are "removable" sections that can make the L a full circle.

I think I remember this drawing. You had a switching layout with a backdrop and had the loop run around behind the backdrop. This was about a year ago if I remember correctly. The mainline was in front and the switching in back.

Still, the same thing could be done with a set-up like Harold's, and you get the second scene. (and it gives you more turnouts to build. Cheating to 5 x 8 and keeping the L wouldn't hurt [:D]

I like the idea of building your workbench under and utilizing the space. While the casters themselves really aren't an issue, I can attest to differences in concrete slopes etc., that Brakie pointed out. I have moved my layout around a bit in my basement. Once place that looked like any other had a slight slope that sent all my rolling stock rolling to the mainline from set out postions.

Putting it up high, and making your space multi-task and keeping it in a fixed location has a lot going for it.

[CNJ831]

Originally posted by BRAKIE
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CNJ831,I have built round the wall layouts in spare bedroom..The windows didn't stop me..I built right past those windows like they wasn't there.[:D]
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Brakie - If I took such total possession of our spare bedroom and ran the layout across the windows and closet doors, I'd not only be looking for a new location for the layout but for a new residence and new wife! Plus, all the train money would be going to pay alimony![;)]

CNJ831

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