Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:02 PM Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:05 PM What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:05 PM What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Yup! A pitcher of ice water and wearing a cotton shirt soaked with a garden hose helps big time too. Keep it wet and YOU won't dehydrate. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Yup! A pitcher of ice water and wearing a cotton shirt soaked with a garden hose helps big time too. Keep it wet and YOU won't dehydrate. Reply Edit emdgp92 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Pittsburgh, PA 1,261 posts Posted by emdgp92 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 11:15 AM My switching layout lives in an outbuilding on my grandmother's farm... up here in PA. Even though we don't have the extremes that TX does, it still gets pretty hot in there. In the summer, I open up the outside upper window, and turn on the fans. In winter, I build a fire in the fireplace downstairs. (The building is two stories). Then, I turn on the space heater upstairs. Believe it or not, it doesn't get too bad. I also don't leave my engines in there...they live in the house when not running. If I don't, the cold/moisture will ruin the motors. Reply emdgp92 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Pittsburgh, PA 1,261 posts Posted by emdgp92 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 11:15 AM My switching layout lives in an outbuilding on my grandmother's farm... up here in PA. Even though we don't have the extremes that TX does, it still gets pretty hot in there. In the summer, I open up the outside upper window, and turn on the fans. In winter, I build a fire in the fireplace downstairs. (The building is two stories). Then, I turn on the space heater upstairs. Believe it or not, it doesn't get too bad. I also don't leave my engines in there...they live in the house when not running. If I don't, the cold/moisture will ruin the motors. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:45 PM Rick I just went in the shed and it seems it has good air flow and curcilation. I will return to the shed in 3 hours to update this fourm. I will keep you posted Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:45 PM Rick I just went in the shed and it seems it has good air flow and curcilation. I will return to the shed in 3 hours to update this fourm. I will keep you posted Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 2:31 PM Bryan, Try contacting Atlas directly, they might be able to tell you what the expansion coefficients of the nickle-silver and their plastic are. Also Peco, or whatever other brand of track you are thinking of using. Tell them what you are about to do and get their recommendations. If anyone can help, it is certainly the folks who manufacture the track. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 2:31 PM Bryan, Try contacting Atlas directly, they might be able to tell you what the expansion coefficients of the nickle-silver and their plastic are. Also Peco, or whatever other brand of track you are thinking of using. Tell them what you are about to do and get their recommendations. If anyone can help, it is certainly the folks who manufacture the track. Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 7:46 PM Bryan: gchenier mentioned trying flex track with BOTH rails free to float. As you know, flex comes from the LHS with only one rail free. You have to "surgically alter" the other rail to free it up. Watch your fingers here, but what you do is to cut out the bits of plastic that join the ties to each other on the fixed side. Have a careful look at the way the ties on the free side are joined, and try to copy that. However, cut the plastic from the fixed side ties between the gaps in the free side ties, rather than directly opposite. The ties will still be in a continous web. The flex should flex both sides after the surgery. I've just tried this on a piece of N flex, and it seems to work OK. Be careful not to let the rail break away from the ties. Gently does it. have fun. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 7:46 PM Bryan: gchenier mentioned trying flex track with BOTH rails free to float. As you know, flex comes from the LHS with only one rail free. You have to "surgically alter" the other rail to free it up. Watch your fingers here, but what you do is to cut out the bits of plastic that join the ties to each other on the fixed side. Have a careful look at the way the ties on the free side are joined, and try to copy that. However, cut the plastic from the fixed side ties between the gaps in the free side ties, rather than directly opposite. The ties will still be in a continous web. The flex should flex both sides after the surgery. I've just tried this on a piece of N flex, and it seems to work OK. Be careful not to let the rail break away from the ties. Gently does it. have fun. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:41 PM I opend the window all the way and it does have good air flow. Does that make a bigger difference? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:41 PM I opend the window all the way and it does have good air flow. Does that make a bigger difference? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:47 PM Here is what I have surmised. People have done layouts in the shed. People don't leave their engines in the shed but store them inside the house. Use material for your benchwork that won't be affected by humidity, such as a foam top. I would take a structure you have that you don't care about and put it in the shed and see what happens to it, if anything. Maybe get a large fan to run when you are working and operating the layout. And a small budget heater for the winter. Gap your tracks to allow for some contraction and expansion. And as one guy said, here I believe, be aware of bugs. Maybe the occassional mouse....lol. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:47 PM Here is what I have surmised. People have done layouts in the shed. People don't leave their engines in the shed but store them inside the house. Use material for your benchwork that won't be affected by humidity, such as a foam top. I would take a structure you have that you don't care about and put it in the shed and see what happens to it, if anything. Maybe get a large fan to run when you are working and operating the layout. And a small budget heater for the winter. Gap your tracks to allow for some contraction and expansion. And as one guy said, here I believe, be aware of bugs. Maybe the occassional mouse....lol. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:53 PM Is there a tempreture that is best for the track and structers so they won't warp? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:53 PM Is there a tempreture that is best for the track and structers so they won't warp? Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Friday, August 8, 2003 6:22 PM It probably depends on what they are made from, and also not just how hot or cold it is, but what is the "Humidex". The humidity has a whole lot to do with warping. Try a cardstock house in the bathroom while the family showers in the morning to see what a bit of fog can do. Try the same thing with a styrene house, and note the differerence! Bet you didn't expect to get your school science intruding into real "make believe" , and especially not on vacation[;)] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Friday, August 8, 2003 6:22 PM It probably depends on what they are made from, and also not just how hot or cold it is, but what is the "Humidex". The humidity has a whole lot to do with warping. Try a cardstock house in the bathroom while the family showers in the morning to see what a bit of fog can do. Try the same thing with a styrene house, and note the differerence! Bet you didn't expect to get your school science intruding into real "make believe" , and especially not on vacation[;)] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! 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Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:05 PM What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:05 PM What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Yup! A pitcher of ice water and wearing a cotton shirt soaked with a garden hose helps big time too. Keep it wet and YOU won't dehydrate. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 10:02 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead? Yup! A pitcher of ice water and wearing a cotton shirt soaked with a garden hose helps big time too. Keep it wet and YOU won't dehydrate. Reply Edit emdgp92 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Pittsburgh, PA 1,261 posts Posted by emdgp92 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 11:15 AM My switching layout lives in an outbuilding on my grandmother's farm... up here in PA. Even though we don't have the extremes that TX does, it still gets pretty hot in there. In the summer, I open up the outside upper window, and turn on the fans. In winter, I build a fire in the fireplace downstairs. (The building is two stories). Then, I turn on the space heater upstairs. Believe it or not, it doesn't get too bad. I also don't leave my engines in there...they live in the house when not running. If I don't, the cold/moisture will ruin the motors. Reply emdgp92 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Pittsburgh, PA 1,261 posts Posted by emdgp92 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 11:15 AM My switching layout lives in an outbuilding on my grandmother's farm... up here in PA. Even though we don't have the extremes that TX does, it still gets pretty hot in there. In the summer, I open up the outside upper window, and turn on the fans. In winter, I build a fire in the fireplace downstairs. (The building is two stories). Then, I turn on the space heater upstairs. Believe it or not, it doesn't get too bad. I also don't leave my engines in there...they live in the house when not running. If I don't, the cold/moisture will ruin the motors. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:45 PM Rick I just went in the shed and it seems it has good air flow and curcilation. I will return to the shed in 3 hours to update this fourm. I will keep you posted Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 12:45 PM Rick I just went in the shed and it seems it has good air flow and curcilation. I will return to the shed in 3 hours to update this fourm. I will keep you posted Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 2:31 PM Bryan, Try contacting Atlas directly, they might be able to tell you what the expansion coefficients of the nickle-silver and their plastic are. Also Peco, or whatever other brand of track you are thinking of using. Tell them what you are about to do and get their recommendations. If anyone can help, it is certainly the folks who manufacture the track. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 2:31 PM Bryan, Try contacting Atlas directly, they might be able to tell you what the expansion coefficients of the nickle-silver and their plastic are. Also Peco, or whatever other brand of track you are thinking of using. Tell them what you are about to do and get their recommendations. If anyone can help, it is certainly the folks who manufacture the track. Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 7:46 PM Bryan: gchenier mentioned trying flex track with BOTH rails free to float. As you know, flex comes from the LHS with only one rail free. You have to "surgically alter" the other rail to free it up. Watch your fingers here, but what you do is to cut out the bits of plastic that join the ties to each other on the fixed side. Have a careful look at the way the ties on the free side are joined, and try to copy that. However, cut the plastic from the fixed side ties between the gaps in the free side ties, rather than directly opposite. The ties will still be in a continous web. The flex should flex both sides after the surgery. I've just tried this on a piece of N flex, and it seems to work OK. Be careful not to let the rail break away from the ties. Gently does it. have fun. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Thursday, August 7, 2003 7:46 PM Bryan: gchenier mentioned trying flex track with BOTH rails free to float. As you know, flex comes from the LHS with only one rail free. You have to "surgically alter" the other rail to free it up. Watch your fingers here, but what you do is to cut out the bits of plastic that join the ties to each other on the fixed side. Have a careful look at the way the ties on the free side are joined, and try to copy that. However, cut the plastic from the fixed side ties between the gaps in the free side ties, rather than directly opposite. The ties will still be in a continous web. The flex should flex both sides after the surgery. I've just tried this on a piece of N flex, and it seems to work OK. Be careful not to let the rail break away from the ties. Gently does it. have fun. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:41 PM I opend the window all the way and it does have good air flow. Does that make a bigger difference? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:41 PM I opend the window all the way and it does have good air flow. Does that make a bigger difference? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:47 PM Here is what I have surmised. People have done layouts in the shed. People don't leave their engines in the shed but store them inside the house. Use material for your benchwork that won't be affected by humidity, such as a foam top. I would take a structure you have that you don't care about and put it in the shed and see what happens to it, if anything. Maybe get a large fan to run when you are working and operating the layout. And a small budget heater for the winter. Gap your tracks to allow for some contraction and expansion. And as one guy said, here I believe, be aware of bugs. Maybe the occassional mouse....lol. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:47 PM Here is what I have surmised. People have done layouts in the shed. People don't leave their engines in the shed but store them inside the house. Use material for your benchwork that won't be affected by humidity, such as a foam top. I would take a structure you have that you don't care about and put it in the shed and see what happens to it, if anything. Maybe get a large fan to run when you are working and operating the layout. And a small budget heater for the winter. Gap your tracks to allow for some contraction and expansion. And as one guy said, here I believe, be aware of bugs. Maybe the occassional mouse....lol. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:53 PM Is there a tempreture that is best for the track and structers so they won't warp? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:53 PM Is there a tempreture that is best for the track and structers so they won't warp? Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Friday, August 8, 2003 6:22 PM It probably depends on what they are made from, and also not just how hot or cold it is, but what is the "Humidex". The humidity has a whole lot to do with warping. Try a cardstock house in the bathroom while the family showers in the morning to see what a bit of fog can do. Try the same thing with a styrene house, and note the differerence! Bet you didn't expect to get your school science intruding into real "make believe" , and especially not on vacation[;)] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Friday, August 8, 2003 6:22 PM It probably depends on what they are made from, and also not just how hot or cold it is, but what is the "Humidex". The humidity has a whole lot to do with warping. Try a cardstock house in the bathroom while the family showers in the morning to see what a bit of fog can do. Try the same thing with a styrene house, and note the differerence! Bet you didn't expect to get your school science intruding into real "make believe" , and especially not on vacation[;)] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead?
"There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock.