"There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bryan9664 What about a fan for when I'm in the shead?
Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 9:02 PM Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 8:21 PM Click on my name, at the side "rsn48" and it will bring up my profile. In the profile you will see a way to send email. Send me an email. My email address is can_rsn_48@hotmail.com I decided to give it to you here as the hotmail address I use is public through many forums. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 8:21 PM Click on my name, at the side "rsn48" and it will bring up my profile. In the profile you will see a way to send email. Send me an email. My email address is can_rsn_48@hotmail.com I decided to give it to you here as the hotmail address I use is public through many forums. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:49 PM I whent in the shed just recently wasn't as hot as I expected. There is a window and it was partly opened.with opened at full it would be alot cooler. The shed is waterprof. I live in Lampasas Texas 60 miles from Austin and 70 miles from Waco. Rick. I had a little trouble with the registation at Atlasrr.com. I will have to contact you through this fourm. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:49 PM I whent in the shed just recently wasn't as hot as I expected. There is a window and it was partly opened.with opened at full it would be alot cooler. The shed is waterprof. I live in Lampasas Texas 60 miles from Austin and 70 miles from Waco. Rick. I had a little trouble with the registation at Atlasrr.com. I will have to contact you through this fourm. Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:39 PM Bryan: Seems like a whole lot of rain on your parade [:(] I'm sorry that there's been so much to dampen your enthusiasm, and the thrill of getting the shed. Also, the remedies suggested for the very real difficulties you will face in your climate don't sound very cheep for a young teen budget. How about this:- If you design your layout as modules these could be moved out of the shed if some of these disasters strike. If you build just one module to begin with you can test the shed to see just which of the many scenarios outlined in this thread actually happen. Then you can see what is easier, a major building fix, or a removable modular set up that can escape the worst of your seasons. Follow Rick's thread in the Atlas Forum, that should give you lot's more information. (Thanks Rick for doing that BTW) Just some thoughts, and I hope this whole thing hasn't got you down. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:39 PM Bryan: Seems like a whole lot of rain on your parade [:(] I'm sorry that there's been so much to dampen your enthusiasm, and the thrill of getting the shed. Also, the remedies suggested for the very real difficulties you will face in your climate don't sound very cheep for a young teen budget. How about this:- If you design your layout as modules these could be moved out of the shed if some of these disasters strike. If you build just one module to begin with you can test the shed to see just which of the many scenarios outlined in this thread actually happen. Then you can see what is easier, a major building fix, or a removable modular set up that can escape the worst of your seasons. Follow Rick's thread in the Atlas Forum, that should give you lot's more information. (Thanks Rick for doing that BTW) Just some thoughts, and I hope this whole thing hasn't got you down. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:27 PM Here is a response from the Atlas forum; basically it echoes the above: Well, in Texas, he's got to have an air conditioner in there. Just to give an example to those not familiar with the weather here -- It was 111 degrees today in Dallas. Inside a sealed shed it would be over 150 degrees. And it will likely get in the teens in winter, so a heater is necessary too. Building a layout in those kind of conditions in an uninsulated room will certainly not be easy. But I know I'd have given it a shot if my parents had gave me a shed at that age. You'll definently need to make the space liveable before any real layout work can begin. If the shed has a window, that's perfect for an airconditioner. If it doesn't, he'll have to cut a hole in the wall of the shed and likely brace it a little, as a shed's walls really aren't very load-bearing. An small air conditioner can probably be had for $100 at a garage sale. A heater, maybe $50, and not nearly as crucial as the A/C. Not trying to be negative, having a shed would be great. Just being realistic, as it's not only important for track and layout to have good temperatures, but it's necessary to really enjoy your hobby. No one wants to bake, literally, when working on their trains Reply Edit 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by bryan9664 The shed has a window and if I leave it open rain can't get in but cooler air can. Does that make a difference? [/quote You bet! The sun on the shed walls will turn the inside into an oven if there is no ventilation. Any ventilation will work wonders, but you might want to cut another window on the opposite wall for a cross breeze. (Be able to close or cover the window openings to retain heat in the winter). Maybe a small, cheap exhaust fan too - in a small volume, it doesn't take a whole lot of airflow to keep things cooler. Also if you paint the outside walls of the shed white, much of the sun heat will be reflected. And styrofoam insulation on the inside of the roof and walls will really help both summer and winter. You are going where few have dared to go before. This is one of the things that can make this hobby so exciting - inventing new techniques to solve the practical problems that plague us. Just remember to gap your rails often with UNsoldered rail joiners (use additional power feeds to the tracks between unsoldered joints so electric flow is not dependent on the rail joiners). If you lay track in the hot weather, no problem - come winter you will see how much rail contraction there is and how big the gaps can get. It would help others if you kept records - rail gap vs temperature. Then anyone in future trying this will know how much gap to leave per foot of track if laying it in cooler weather. As a prelayout experiment try installing a section of gapped track on a piece of wood. Make it in the sun on a hot day with the rail ends touching, or heated in your kitchen oven set to 120F (use an oven thermometer). Tighten the free rail ends down with screws so they can't shift. Then stick it in your fridge or deep freeze (with a thermometer) overnight and measure the resulting gap. Tests like this can help you anticipate what the rail contraction in the cold will be for various temperatures and how often the sliding gaps need to be placed to keep each gap small. It might be wise (and i'm only guessing) to use a flexible track with BOTH rails free to slide across the ties. Sectional track with rails fixed to the plastic could have problems with metal and plastic thermal expansion coefficients being very different, causing warping or buckling with drastic temperature changes. If both rails are free to slide they will seek their own temperature related size without pulling the plastic into wierd shapes. This is another experiment you could try in the sun/oven then the deep freeze. You may run into other problems as well that you will need to solve. Again, you are getting into unknown territory. But what you learn from this will be very useful to others that will follow in your footsteps. Keep detailed notes and eventually you will be an expert on this. Remember that the prototype railroading pioneers long ago had all these same problems to solve as well, yet we have railroads that work. Oh, and don't forget mice and termites. Some termite poison and mousetraps could be useful. Good luck on this, and keep us posted on your developments. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 8:21 PM Click on my name, at the side "rsn48" and it will bring up my profile. In the profile you will see a way to send email. Send me an email. My email address is can_rsn_48@hotmail.com I decided to give it to you here as the hotmail address I use is public through many forums. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 8:21 PM Click on my name, at the side "rsn48" and it will bring up my profile. In the profile you will see a way to send email. Send me an email. My email address is can_rsn_48@hotmail.com I decided to give it to you here as the hotmail address I use is public through many forums. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:49 PM I whent in the shed just recently wasn't as hot as I expected. There is a window and it was partly opened.with opened at full it would be alot cooler. The shed is waterprof. I live in Lampasas Texas 60 miles from Austin and 70 miles from Waco. Rick. I had a little trouble with the registation at Atlasrr.com. I will have to contact you through this fourm. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:49 PM I whent in the shed just recently wasn't as hot as I expected. There is a window and it was partly opened.with opened at full it would be alot cooler. The shed is waterprof. I live in Lampasas Texas 60 miles from Austin and 70 miles from Waco. Rick. I had a little trouble with the registation at Atlasrr.com. I will have to contact you through this fourm. Reply Edit der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:39 PM Bryan: Seems like a whole lot of rain on your parade [:(] I'm sorry that there's been so much to dampen your enthusiasm, and the thrill of getting the shed. Also, the remedies suggested for the very real difficulties you will face in your climate don't sound very cheep for a young teen budget. How about this:- If you design your layout as modules these could be moved out of the shed if some of these disasters strike. If you build just one module to begin with you can test the shed to see just which of the many scenarios outlined in this thread actually happen. Then you can see what is easier, a major building fix, or a removable modular set up that can escape the worst of your seasons. Follow Rick's thread in the Atlas Forum, that should give you lot's more information. (Thanks Rick for doing that BTW) Just some thoughts, and I hope this whole thing hasn't got you down. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply der5997 Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Nova Scotia, Northumberland Shore 2,479 posts Posted by der5997 on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:39 PM Bryan: Seems like a whole lot of rain on your parade [:(] I'm sorry that there's been so much to dampen your enthusiasm, and the thrill of getting the shed. Also, the remedies suggested for the very real difficulties you will face in your climate don't sound very cheep for a young teen budget. How about this:- If you design your layout as modules these could be moved out of the shed if some of these disasters strike. If you build just one module to begin with you can test the shed to see just which of the many scenarios outlined in this thread actually happen. Then you can see what is easier, a major building fix, or a removable modular set up that can escape the worst of your seasons. Follow Rick's thread in the Atlas Forum, that should give you lot's more information. (Thanks Rick for doing that BTW) Just some thoughts, and I hope this whole thing hasn't got you down. [:D] "There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 6, 2003 7:27 PM Here is a response from the Atlas forum; basically it echoes the above: Well, in Texas, he's got to have an air conditioner in there. Just to give an example to those not familiar with the weather here -- It was 111 degrees today in Dallas. Inside a sealed shed it would be over 150 degrees. And it will likely get in the teens in winter, so a heater is necessary too. Building a layout in those kind of conditions in an uninsulated room will certainly not be easy. But I know I'd have given it a shot if my parents had gave me a shed at that age. You'll definently need to make the space liveable before any real layout work can begin. If the shed has a window, that's perfect for an airconditioner. If it doesn't, he'll have to cut a hole in the wall of the shed and likely brace it a little, as a shed's walls really aren't very load-bearing. An small air conditioner can probably be had for $100 at a garage sale. A heater, maybe $50, and not nearly as crucial as the A/C. Not trying to be negative, having a shed would be great. Just being realistic, as it's not only important for track and layout to have good temperatures, but it's necessary to really enjoy your hobby. No one wants to bake, literally, when working on their trains Reply Edit 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up