DCC is sooooooo boring...

[Anonymous]

I like my DCC just the way it is.

[DigitalGriffin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

I have to vent.

Why is it that DCC manufacturers don't get it?

And what about brakes? How come we don't have any brakes? How simple would it be to assign 2 or 3 function buttons to activate a brake? Cut the throttle and the train keeps right on going unless you hit the brake. How prototypical is that?

And how about a CV that would increase or decrease both acceleration and deceleration at the same time so we didn't have to fiddle with both CV3 and 4 whenever we make a change.

And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

Even a littlle bit of wheel slip might be simulated for steamers by applying very short bursts of full voltage to the motor.

End of rant. That's what I think. I'm wondering where the imagination went with others in this hobby.

george

George,

You're a little off base

First the tsunami does have working breaks which will slow down the train from it's given momentum. I'm sure others will follow suit soon enough with this great feature.

And yes some DCC control is clumsy. Trying to change a CV after a lashup to simulate a heavy load is a bit clunky. But people like me are trying to solve that problem.

And speed curves are programable. You can have a negative concavity acceleration curve programmed into a speed table w/o issue providing you have acceleration no set to 0.

[jfugate]

Interesting the comments by some that DC is for small layouts ... I have a fellow modeler who has a 4x6 layout and has had it since the 60s.

He recently went to DCC and he told me he's never had so much fun! *Finally* he can run multiple locos independently and do things on his little layout operationally that he's never been able to do. He has over 40 locos, and he's changing a few over at a time with $12 fleet decoders.

He told me his move to DCC is the best thing he's done in the hobby for a *long* time! [swg]

So DCC isn't just for *large* layouts ...

[Anonymous]

I just use a regular old Tech 4 220 Power Pac. I like to keep things plain and simple. An older guy that I met at a train show showed me that you can operate sound equipped locomotives on just a regular DC power pac. He said you can use the direction switch to activate and deactivate the sound and light functions. So, you don't have to have DCC in order to enjoy the extra features available on some of your more expensive locomotives.

[DigitalGriffin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

One of the guys at my club had an interesting idea for an operations program that I am embellishing. It would use a car card-type system and would match locomotive towing capacities with car weight both full and empty and limit/increase the power to the locomotive accordingly.

Operators would have to match engines with loads and towing capacity and stage helpers accordingly.

Sounds like fun. But I cringe to think of 80 cars lashed up between 3 engines on a fast clock and a medium yard. Talk about being quick on your feet!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

I like the flexibility that DCC offers for running trains, but. . .It's the programming that's a real PAIN!!!

From my perspective, DCC is like where personal computers were at in the late 1980's - using DOS. We need an Apple Computer for DCC - some company that can make it super user friendly. (Please, no Mac vs. PC quarrels here - I own a computer based business that uses all PCs but I do see the advantages of Mac for the general consumer.) Maybe there are a few Model Railroaders at Apple who have some ideas - hmmmmm?

I bought an old laptop with win95 on it for $10 and hooked up the PR1 hardware and software to it. It sure makes programming a decoder about as easy as it can get.

[twhite]

Actually, guys, this discussion has been good for me. Mark Newon and Joe Fugate and Antonio have cleared up and explained several items that I must admit I was rather confused about. And I've never been called 'close-minded' by anyone that I know of, so it's given me a great deal to think about.
One question, though. Does anyone out here have any opinions on how decoders work with older brass locos? I've heard both pro and con on the subject, and I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has had experience.
Just curious (as usual).
Tom [:D]

[tstage]

The big selling point for me with DCC was being able to run two locomotives...on the SAME track...independently of one another. You just can't do that with DC. Makes running a yard both extremely enjoyable and very realistic.

I can still respect and understand the reasons for those who decide to stick with DC. However, I would encourage you to personally try it out first and give it a fair assessment BEFORE you pass judgment on it. For me, DCC was a logical "no-brainer"...

Tom

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Actually, guys, this discussion has been good for me.

One question, though. Does anyone out here have any opinions on how decoders work with older brass locos? I've heard both pro and con on the subject, and I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has had experience.
Just curious (as usual).
Tom [:D]

Tom,

A few months back forum member Cmarchan took a Westside SP GS4 that he bought in 1976, repowered it with a Mashima motor, and installed a functioning Mars light in it. He let me run it at the club. It was hard to keep from drooling! Sweet running engine. To add icing to the cake, he just installed a Tsunami decoder in it. I'm looking forward to seeing it in action. I'm e-mailing this thread to him and asking him to post more info on the job he performed as well as tips for brass owners.

I think the issue with older brass and plastic locomotives is the amount of current they draw. For DCC the lower the current draw, the better. But remember, not all older units draw a lot of current. My 1970s model power E units, which have huge Roco motors, draw less than one amp. The friend I mentioned above also successfully installed a decoder in a 30 year old Athearn U-Boat.

Try this: If you have access to a basic electronic mulit-meter, you can perform "Current-Stall" tests on your brass units. This would give you a good "feel" to see if you have some units that could potentially be converted without repowering.

[jfugate]

Tom:

Speaking of installing decoders in older brass locos ... steamers can be tough, especially if you have older SP power with vanderbuilt tenders. Some of my op crew regulars have reworked a Westside SP GS4, added a Tsunami sound decoder into it, along with working Mars lights, and painted it as 4449.

Plans are to have this loco featured in the Siskiyou Line prototype operations volume 5 DVD (due out 2007) as a special excursion run down the late 1980s Siskiyou Line. Your question prompts me to consider adding a special feature to the video where I have these guys tell us how they modified the brass loco to get the decoder and lights into it.

I know it doesn't help much at this moment, but good things come to those who wait, as they say. [swg]

Still it does show it can be done, and maybe I can convince these guys to post some info in the meantime on my Siskiyou Line forum about their efforts, along with some photos. Let me look into getting them to post this info.

[BNSF4ever]

I have nothing against DCC. I just don't see the point for my layout. My setup is a 12 x 8 rectangle with three ovals, each with its own powerpack. Sure, I'd love some complicated system like you see in the model railroad magazines but my living arrangement doesn't allow me this at the present time. So at the moment, I can run three trains at once. I do not get the cool lighting effects like alternating ditch lights or sound...but I don't think I am missing much. Sound, for instance, in diesels has never impressed me all that much for the cost. And at least I can save on the high end locomotives by avoiding DCC and sound.

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Actually, guys, this discussion has been good for me. Mark Newon and Joe Fugate and Antonio have cleared up and explained several items that I must admit I was rather confused about. And I've never been called 'close-minded' by anyone that I know of, so it's given me a great deal to think about.
One question, though. Does anyone out here have any opinions on how decoders work with older brass locos? I've heard both pro and con on the subject, and I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has had experience.
Just curious (as usual).
Tom [:D]

Tom;

After installing decoders in over 100 brass locos, for myself and mostly others, I can tell you this. Each one is different. So what works on one loco may or may not work on the next. There are several criteria I look at when installing a decoder into a brassie.

1. How smooth does it run on DC? If it is a good runner on DC, it'll be just as good if not better on DCC.
2. What room is available to install the decoder in? Can I put it into the boiler, or do I have to install it into the tender.
3. How easy will it be to isolate the motor? Will brush isolation work or do I need to isolate the motor from the whole frame?
4. If it has an open frame motor, what is the stall current, slip current and probably most important, what is the startup current? Many people forget that the startup current of a motor can be as high or higher than its stall current. Even though startup current lasts only momentarily, until the motor starts to turn, this is what will let the smoke out of a decoder just as fast if not faster than a short. If it is an open frame motor and tests shows it stays below the maximum rating of the decoder, no problem, the decoder gets installed using the open frame, unless the owner wants a new can installed.
5. If the motor is replaced, will new gearing be required? Some older brass comes with a somewhat slower running open frame, and installing a new higher speed can motor causes such breakneck starts that it requires that a new gearbox be installed.

Like I said, I look at all this criteria, but overall installing a decoder into a brass engine is no more difficult than installing a decoder into any engine without a DCC plug.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
You have to remember that DCC is still in its infancy.

I have to take acception with that, originally approved in 1994 now with two revisions. Consider the other computer "state of the art" technology in 1994. Without the revisions DCC would be as obsolete at the 80486 computer chip and ArcNet communications. I remember arguing at the time (1993) that only having 1024 locomotive channels was way to restrictive.

QUOTE: The really cool effect I am waiting to see is the system that keeps track of your water and if you run out, you hear a loud boom from the speaker and the engine goes dead.

Water use and fuel economy... I really like that idea. Sellectively compressed, it could really add to the operation of a small single loop layout. How many loop can one make without having to stop? Stop too often and you waste time and fall behind schedule, go to far and you get stuck away from the station.

[Paul3]

cjcrescent wrote:

QUOTE: 4. If it has an open frame motor, what is the stall current, slip current and probably most important, what is the startup current? Many people forget that the startup current of a motor can be as high or higher than its stall current. Even though startup current lasts only momentarily, until the motor starts to turn, this is what will let the smoke out of a decoder just as fast if not faster than a short.

Ok, I know I went to school for mechanical engineering, but can you explain how start up current can be higher than stall current? Stall current is the application of power to a motor that isn't turning at all...just like start up current. At worst, it'd be the same...wouldn't it?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[jwils1]

If you're new to the hobby or just have 2 or 3 locos, don't even think about DC! DCC is amazing, exciting and will re-kindle your excitement for model railroading. It can be as simple as just running two or more locos on the same track, or, as complex as you want it to be. But either way you will love it! Like Tom said......for me it's also a no brainer.

Now if you have 70 brass DC locos it's a different story. But, just maybe, if you can afford it, it will be so exciting it will keep you awake at night like it does me! I can hardly wait to get to it the next day.

Jerry

[twhite]

Antonio, Joe & Carey--thanks for the information on the viability of installing decoders in brass steam locos. As I re-power some of my older brass with NWSL can motors, I automatically isolate them from the frame anyway--I mount them with silicone putty. So it seems that I have one step forward to begin with.
Thanks guys, for giving me something to think about. I appreciate it.
Now, another question. I know that my newer BLI's are DCC ready, but if I decide to convert some of my brass, can I still run the other locos on DC, or do I have to scrap and convert everything to DCC all at once? This is the part that confuses me.
Tom
[%-)][%-)]

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

Ok, I know I went to school for mechanical engineering, but can you explain how start up current can be higher than stall current? Stall current is the application of power to a motor that isn't turning at all...just like start up current. At worst, it'd be the same...wouldn't it?

Paul,

You definitely have the advantage. I am not a mechanical engineer, nor do I play one on TV. Startup current was something that I had never considered at all until I had an old KTM motor that after testing for slip and stall current, around .75A but still let the smoke out of a decoder on startup. A friend of mine asked what the startup current was. I didn't know. We tested it and sure enough, its startup was over an amp! I have found two other motors that did this, one a PFM, the other a Pittman. How its possible, or the theory behind it, I do not know, except to say that at least in these cases the current needed to get the motor turning was greater than what it would stall at.

[tstage]

Tom,

Most DCC systems (except NCE) will allow you to run one (1) DC locomotive on your layout. It will, however, emit a somewhat annoying audible "buzz" when you are running it. (Kinda painful to listen to but tolerable.)

Unlike DC layouts that have the track voltage regulated by the power pack, DCC layouts are AC and at 100% power ALL THE TIME. The command station sends "packets" of digital information that tells the decoder what duration of time the motor is turned off and on hundreds of times a second. Simply put, in order for a train to go slowly, the motor is "off" more than it is "on". The faster the speed; the higher the percentage the motor is "on" than "off".

The "buzz" emitted from non-DCC locomotives is the DCC signal being "stretched" to mimic a DC signal. (I'm sure someone will explain it much better and more accurately than I just did.) This buzz will not harm the motors on your non-DCC locomotives when running them, BUT you should be very careful about leaving them idle on the track for extended periods of time. Some claim that the motors can eventually heat up too much and get damaged.

Tom, if you should decide to go DCC, and you know it's going to take time for you to convert them over, the best advice would be to just put the locomotives you want to run on the track when using a DCC system and leave the others completely off or on an isolated track somewhere so that they don't receive any current from the track.

Hope that helps, Thomas...

(Another) Tom

[Paul3]

cjcrescent,
Just to make sure, we are talking about the same thing WRT "stall", right? A "stalled" motor cannot turn at all. To test stall current, you have to jam the motor drive so that it can't turn, and then hit it (quickly, you don't want to melt it) with your top operating voltage (say, 12v) while watching the amp meter. Where this peaks is "stall current". This is the maximum amperage that a motor uses (we'll call it "short time" rating, because if used too long it'll melt the motor). As soon as it starts spinning, the amperage load should drop.

I'm thinkin' that maybe you're testing the slip amperage? IOW, holding the loco in place and letting the wheels (and therefore the motor) spin. This would be the normal operating maximum amperage of the motor... The "continuous" rating, if you will.

This is where decoders get their 1.0 amp normal (continuous), 1.5 amp peak (short time) ratings.

When starting, the motor is obviously not turning. And for a short time until it actually does, the amp load will go up as the motor is, technically, stalled. This can pop decoders that aren't rated high enough. But it still shouldn't be any higher an amp load than when the motor is truly stalled...

Corrections welcome...my college didn't put me into too many electronics classes. [:)]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

I have to vent.

For example...
How about those throttles? Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it? That plus a little (or a lot, your choice) of momentum would make for very much more interesting and satisfying control of the locomotive.

And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

george

Hi George.

Ever checked out ZIMO equipment? The ZIMO mini-system is pictured in the May issue of the MR. It doesn't have notches but at least it is a slider.

Non-linear momentum? A feature ZIMO decoders have been using for many years and it really is [8D]. Check the decoder manual, it's CV #121 and 122. You can include between 10 to 90% of the speed range in the "extended" momentum and select from various curves.

Regards,
Art
Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Tom,

Most DCC systems (except NCE) will allow you to run one (1) DC locomotive on your layout. It will, however, emit a somewhat annoying audible "buzz" when you are running it. (Kinda painful to listen to but tolerable.)
,<SNIP>
This buzz will not harm the motors on your non-DCC locomotives when running them, BUT you should be very careful about leaving them idle on the track for extended periods of time. Some claim that the motors can eventually heat up too much and get damaged.
<SNIP>
(Another) Tom

Not always true! I've personally witnessed a Digitrax system wipe out a coreless motor in 2 brass steamers by trying to run them on "00" (Dc on DCC)
The owner was dismayed, then handed them to me to repower them and add decoders.

[trainfan1221]

DCC is not worth it for me, but either way I am content with a regular but good quality transformer and a little imagination. At least until it is made outdated and we are left with no choice, and yeah, I am willing to believe that's coming.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Tom,

Most DCC systems (except NCE) will allow you to run one (1) DC locomotive on your layout. It will, however, emit a somewhat annoying audible "buzz" when you are running it. (Kinda painful to listen to but tolerable.)
,<SNIP>
This buzz will not harm the motors on your non-DCC locomotives when running them, BUT you should be very careful about leaving them idle on the track for extended periods of time. Some claim that the motors can eventually heat up too much and get damaged.
<SNIP>
(Another) Tom

Not always true! I've personally witnessed a Digitrax system wipe out a coreless motor in 2 brass steamers by trying to run them on "00" (Dc on DCC)
The owner was dismayed, then handed them to me to repower them and add decoders.

I feel that any system that generates that kind of racket in a little HO drive can't be doing it any good over time, so I don't run DC locos on my layout. I tried it once, and vowed never to bother again. Who needs to hear a high-pitched "ZZZZEEEEEEEEEE" drowning out many of the other legitimate sounds on a DCC layout?

I believe that Tom is basically correct in that few motors will succumb to DCC current on the 00 address unless allowed to languish on the layout doing nothing....except squeeling like a lost piglet..and, again, can anyone tell me the point in that?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjcrescent



Tom;

After installing decoders in over 100 brass locos, for myself and mostly others, I can tell you this. Each one is different. So what works on one loco may or may not work on the next. There are several criteria I look at when installing a decoder into a brassie.

1. How smooth does it run on DC? If it is a good runner on DC, it'll be just as good if not better on DCC.
2. What room is available to install the decoder in? Can I put it into the boiler, or do I have to install it into the tender.
3. How easy will it be to isolate the motor? Will brush isolation work or do I need to isolate the motor from the whole frame?
4. If it has an open frame motor, what is the stall current, slip current and probably most important, what is the startup current? Many people forget that the startup current of a motor can be as high or higher than its stall current. Even though startup current lasts only momentarily, until the motor starts to turn, this is what will let the smoke out of a decoder just as fast if not faster than a short. If it is an open frame motor and tests shows it stays below the maximum rating of the decoder, no problem, the decoder gets installed using the open frame, unless the owner wants a new can installed.
5. If the motor is replaced, will new gearing be required? Some older brass comes with a somewhat slower running open frame, and installing a new higher speed can motor causes such breakneck starts that it requires that a new gearbox be installed.

Like I said, I look at all this criteria, but overall installing a decoder into a brass engine is no more difficult than installing a decoder into any engine without a DCC plug.

Having done close to 100 installs in brass myself, all I can say is...
True, true true,,,
Even when working on working on multiple, identical make and model units, I find subtle differences from engine to engine when installing decoders. Gotta love that hand built quality!!!!!!! One thing different I do is recommend a can motor to replace ALL open frame motors. If its all torn apart anyway, the conversion expense is minimal, and the benefits are great![:D]

[olequa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by aluesch

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

I have to vent.

For example...
How about those throttles? Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it? That plus a little (or a lot, your choice) of momentum would make for very much more interesting and satisfying control of the locomotive.

And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

george

Hi George.

Ever checked out ZIMO equipment? The ZIMO mini-system is pictured in the May issue of the MR. It doesn't have notches but at least it is a slider.

Non-linear momentum? A feature ZIMO decoders have been using for many years and it really is [8D]. Check the decoder manual, it's CV #121 and 122. You can include between 10 to 90% of the speed range in the "extended" momentum and select from various curves.

Regards,
Art
Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

ART!!! YoudaMAN!
It's nice to see a real factory rep here. And no I'm not familiar with Zimos but I will take your advice and look into it. My experience has only been with Digitrax, NCE, Train Systems and Soundtrax decoders, and the decoders that I have are all sadly similar. Perhaps Zimos are what I'm looking for.

Thanks!
george

[Anonymous]

DCC seemed a no brainer to me. At first I was not sure I'd be able to wire it, but after seeing that it's SO MUCH EASIAR to wire a layout for DCC, I know which direction I'm heading![:D] And, after running my first DCC operating session a few weeks ago, that just drove me in deeper. Anyone here with a huge yard, long mainline, multiple industries and a lot of trains can tell you it'd be a pain in the neck to run it on anything but DCC.

[AntonioFP45]

Art,

Your post is interesting.

Most of us are familiar with Digitrax, ESU,NCE, TCS, MRC, and "EZ DCC"; but ZIMO is I don't hear that often. But it's good to know that you're in the command control arena. This market has benefited a good deal from healthy competition.

Hope to see more of your posts.

[Anonymous]

I never needed the use for dcc because I ran live cantenary and I could control the running of two seperate trains on one track. With out the use of the live overhead the dcc is a big plus. felix

[wjstix]

I haven't read all the threads, so I assume someone mentioned that there are CV's for momentum etc. and that momentum is controlled by the decoder in the engine, not the DCC system. Plus the center "off" setting on a Digitrax Zephyr (and other units have something similar) does work like a break - but on real trains, they don't stop on a dime like DC engines do !! They really coast a LONG way before stopping.

p.s. not all diesels used eight notches, Baldwins originally had a system that was a continuous range like a model throttle, with slight adjustments in speed possible.

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

QUOTE: Originally posted by aluesch

QUOTE: Originally posted by olequa

I have to vent.

For example...
How about those throttles? Why wouldn't someone get the idea that maybe they should build a lever throttle that has 8 notches on it? That plus a little (or a lot, your choice) of momentum would make for very much more interesting and satisfying control of the locomotive.

And I've mentioned here before what I think of the current straight-line velocity curve that is produced by all decoders today when using momentum. It shoudn't be that way. The actual velocity should approach the terminal velocity asymtotically (spelling may be off on that one).

george

Hi George.

Ever checked out ZIMO equipment? The ZIMO mini-system is pictured in the May issue of the MR. It doesn't have notches but at least it is a slider.

Non-linear momentum? A feature ZIMO decoders have been using for many years and it really is [8D]. Check the decoder manual, it's CV #121 and 122. You can include between 10 to 90% of the speed range in the "extended" momentum and select from various curves.

Regards,
Art
Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

ART!!! YoudaMAN!
It's nice to see a real factory rep here. And no I'm not familiar with Zimos but I will take your advice and look into it. My experience has only been with Digitrax, NCE, Train Systems and Soundtrax decoders, and the decoders that I have are all sadly similar. Perhaps Zimos are what I'm looking for.

Thanks!
george

George,

they will soon be available with sound, if you are into that.

Also, when you look closely at the MX31 cab, you can see at the right speed scale (right side of slider) two little arrows in the center of the scale pointing up and down. This was included in this cab design because ZIMO is planning on adding brakes as you suggested. With the slider in the center of the scale your train would be at stady speed (or maybe coasting, I have no details yet) , moving the slider down would apply your brakes for example. Since all ZIMO cabs, command stations and decoders can be updated by the customer via the Internet, all that is really required to implement this feature is a firmware update.
Another possibility would be to add the brakes to the encoder wheel on the side....

Regards,
Art
Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/