NCE PowerCab: A Quick Look review - PLUS Resolving issues

[tstage]

It's interesting. I know that the PowerCab and Power Pro are identical in appearance, and that you can use the PowerCab as an additional throttle on the Power Pro system. I've noticed that when you power the PowerCab up, the LCD screen first comes up as ProCab v. 1.3, then PowerCab 1.1. Since the PowerCab contains both software versions, that explains how the PowerCab is able to revert to an extra throttle when used with the Power Pro system, and has a few more capabilities that aren't part of the PowerCab software when run as such.

Tom

[sledgehammer]

Tom
I just went and turn mine on and it came up with procab 1.3 and and then the train address number and then v 1.3 again. then the speed clock takes its place. does the powercab have a clock

[tstage]

Derrick,

Yepper. The PowerCab comes with/displays scale time or system clock.


(from p.1)

Tom

[Tim_Seawel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

This issue of using a 2nd cab deserves some further investigation. According to Tim above, the 2nd throttle gets control of a loco from the PowerCab. The description suggests that the Powercab has to select the loco and then assign or dispatch it over to the 2nd throttle. Surely the 2nd throttle operator can key in the address of the loco that he/she wants to control on the throttle and needs no intervention from the Powercab? Otherwise the 2nd operator would have to disturb the Powercab operator every time they want to run a different loco.

Simon I hadn't thought of that but I think you are correct. I just researched NCE 's available engineers throttles and they can indeed select loco's on their own. The info in my previous post came from me reading out of the manual. I believe Tom has ordered an engineers cab and will soon be able to clue us in .

Tim

[tstage]

Hopefully, I'll be getting the extra throttle I ordered (NCE CAB04p) in the mail fairly soon. I did look at the CAB04p manual on the NCE web site to see if I could find any more information about running a locomotive with the extra throttle. The manual was from March 2001, so there wasn't anything specific pertaining to hooking it up to the PowerCab.

Tom

[tstage]

While I'm waiting for my extra throttle to arrive, I decided to e-mail Bruce Petrarca @ Litchfield Station this morning and pose the question to him. Since I bought the extra throttle from Bruce anyhow, I thought it a reasonable thing to ask him to explain how the extra throttle works along with the PowerCab. Bruce is usually pretty good about returning e-mails, so I might even find out something today. I'll let you know.

Tom

[ksax73]

Tony's should be shipping mine on Monday. Too bad I have to wait until sometime in June to test it out :-(

[tstage]

Kyle,

Sometimes student life just ain't fair, is it? What about Spring Break?

Tom

[rrinker]

It's sort of a shame I was turned off to model railroading when I started college (mainly due to crappy N scale equipment just prior to the release of the nice Atlas/Kato stuff) or I probably would have had a small switching layout in my dorm room.

--Randy

[electrolove]

This is a little off topic but I post it anyway.



http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn/procab_knob.htm

[tstage]

Electro,

I personally don't mind the encoder wheel or the speed buttons, but that's a cool modification. Thanks for posting that.

I assume you could do the same thing on the other side for those who are right-handed. (Although, if the black wire in the right corner of the picture is original, that may be an issue.)

Tom

[CraigN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Craig,

Does Locomotive #2 then jump to/take on the settings of Locomotive #1? Or, does Locomotive #2 behave/start out like it's supposed to, even though the speed steps for Locomotive #1 are displayed?

Tom

It takes right off, but only when I make a speed adjutment, otherwise it just sits there.

Now if I select a loco, hit recall and select another loco, all is fine.

I contacted Larry at NCE about what I am experiancing and he said"

Craig,

The PowerCab has a recall stack of 2 locos(trains). The system will remember what the settings of these 2 engines were. Anytime a new loco is selected, the system does not have a way of seeing this decoder and matching what it is or was doing. This is why you will see some difference in speed.

The limitation of 2 locos in the recall stack is part of the reason we can offer this unit at $179.95. Additional memory and space would be needed to add more.

Larry Larsen
NCE Customer Support


I can exept this, most people with a small layout are probably not going to be running 3 or more trains at the exact same time like I was trying to do. My N Scale layout is large, Approx. 150 feet of single track mainline and I am also going to buy the Power pro system someday to run the layout.

The Powercab will then be an extra throttle for the Power Pro system. I like the idea of that, and that is why i made the jump into DCC now instead of waiting to save the money for the bigger system.

Craig

[rrinker]

Now, does that apply to the PowerCab itself, or the entire system? IE, if you add the supported second throttle, will it only remember one train on the main powerCab and one ont eh second throttle?
This is a previously undisclosed limitation. Assuming I have enough amps, I can have a full 10 trains running on my Zephyr and recall any one of them to active control without the speed or direction changing (assuming I put the throttle in the same position - with an extra throttle with an encoder like the DT400 there is no issue at all - which is why encoders are better IMO, and that mod to add a potentiometer to the ProCab seems a step backwards to me). If the 2-train recall thing is the way it works, I guess I don't know what the point is for the PowerCab supporting 12 trains - or is it that you can only recall 2 on the PowerCab but the second cab will be able to access the other 10 in recall, or the full 12 if the Powercab is not actually running any trains?

--Randy

[tstage]

I'm running into another issue that might be better listed on a separate thread, but I'm going to put it here anyhow.

As some of you know, my prior DCC system was the Bachmann E-Z Command. It was limited but it worked well for what it could do. I hardly ever had a problem operationally with it. My Power Cab, on the other hand, seems to be more more finicky about things.
The Problem:Whenever I run my BLI Mike over certain sections of track on my layout, the Power Cab will shut down for a couple of seconds then come back on, as if I had just unplugged and replugged it into the Power panel.

For the most part, this phenomenon seems to happen near or at crossovers and turnouts.

The manual doesn't mention how the Power Cab responds to a short. With the Bachmann, a short will cause the E-Z Command to "chatter" and the LEDs to rapidly flicker on and off. So, I decided to replicate a short and laid a metal ruler across the tracks. Sure enough, the Power Cab shut down briefly then came back on. Okay, that's handy to know and also helps me narrow it down to a shorting problem.

The other thing is that none of my other locomotives - i.e. P2K S1, Stewart VO-660, and Athearn 2-8-2 - exhibit this same problem. It's only my BLI Mike. The funny thing is, the Mike ran fine over the SAME spots with the Bachmann E-Z Command.

Is this happening because the Power Cab is more sensitive to shorts than the Bachmann would be? Does it have anything to do with only using two wires to run the layout with? What is it shorting to? Would some other issue cause the Power Cab to perform in the same manner?

Let me add that the BLI Mike is the only locomotive I have that has sound. Now, it would make sense if the Mike were just stopping or hesitating at particular spots. That would be a power issue (or lack thereof). Hesitating would say to me that either the rail joiners need replacing or I just need to go ahead and "legitimately" wire the layout up with a bus wire and feeders. But the "shorting" doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Does anyone have any insight or suggestions? I will be e-mailing NCE about it to see what they have to say or suggest. This ones got me baffled. [%-)]

Thanks for your input...[:)]

Tom

[simon1966]

Tom, it does read as if it is a short. Different systems have different approaches to short response, and it sounds like the Powercab is tripping more quickly than the Bachmann. It would seem that it is a momentary short that is cleared as the BLI moves over the offending track. I bet it was going on before, but the older system was not reacting to it before it cleared.

What I would do is run the BLI really slowly into the offending location and see if you can pinpoint where the problem lies. Most likely the wheel treads or flanges of one wheel are bridging between oposing polarity tracks at the crossover and turnout frog.

Check the guage of the wheels on the BLI to be sure it is not out of wack and correct if needed.

What brand of turnout are you using by the way?

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage


The Problem:Whenever I run my BLI Mike over certain sections of track on my layout, the Power Cab will shut down for a couple of seconds then come back on, as if I had just unplugged and replugged it into the Power panel.

Let me add that the BLI Mike is the only locomotive I have that has sound. Now, it would make sense if the Mike were just stopping or hesitating at particular spots. That would be a power issue (or lack thereof). Hesitating would say to me that either the rail joiners need replacing or I just need to go ahead and "legitimately" wire the layout up with a bus wire and feeders. But the "shorting" doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Does anyone have any insight or suggestions? I will be e-mailing NCE about it to see what they have to say or suggest. This ones got me baffled. [%-)]

Thanks for your input...[:)]
Tom

Because of the sound, the BLI decoders have capacitors to store a charge to keep them going past small, intermittent dead spots.

Each time power is applied to these locos, there is a large inrush of current as those capacitors charge. That's why there are often programming problems with sound-equipped locos - The current-protected programming tracks see that inrush as a short, and shut themselves down.

Since your loco is running when you have this problem, the motor, any lights you might have on, and the sound system are all drawing current. This probably adds up to a significant amount.

While the loco is moving down the track, interrupt the flow of current to that loco for just a very short period. Those capacitors start to discharge to keep the loco powered.

Then re-apply power. Now you again have the "normal" loads mentioned above, and that inrush current, all at the same time. The PowerCab is probably more sensitive than the Bachmann and sees that as a short.

Suggestions? Trade in that 1.7 amp PowerCab on a 2.5 amp Zephyr that doesn't have this problem.[:D][:D][:D]

(Oops, did I say that? Sorry, don't know what came over me... [;)] )

Steve

[tstage]

Simon,

I'm using the Atlas Snap turnouts, which are slight sharper than the #4 turnout. I've tried what you have suggested, Simon, but haven't been able to narrow it down. Even going slowly around the layout before with the Bachmann never trigger anything. I would assume that my concentration for the culprit should be focused underneath the tender, since that's where the pick up are?

One thing I'm reminded of and forgot to mention, that may shed more light on the topic: The problem occurs at one particular turnout ONLY when the Mike is going through the straight section of the turnout. If I run the Mike through the curved portion onto the main, it doesn't seem to happen.

Hmmm. Should I just call up Car Talk on Saturday morning and bounce it off of them?

Tom

[tstage]

Thanks, Steve. [:)] Funny guy!

Sooooo, do you think that my idea of finally "legitimately" wiring up my layout with a bus wire and feeders would help alleviate this problem?

Tom

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert


Suggestions? Trade in that 1.7 amp PowerCab on a 2.5 amp Zephyr that doesn't have this problem.[:D][:D][:D]

(Oops, did I say that? Sorry, don't know what came over me... [;)] )

Steve

Boy I'm starting to like you more and more Steve... [;)]

The funny thing is, even the DCS series command stations from Digitrax are more sensitive to power issues than the Zephyr is. I'm convinced at this point that using a Zephyr and DB150's for power districts is a more reliable way to power a layout than using a DCS setup (and I've done several layouts both ways). I've said it before and I'll say it again, once you learn how to manage addresses by dispatching and paying attention to what's in the stack, a Zephyr is hands down the best system Digitrax currently offers regardless of layout size. You get all the power of the DCS box with very few drawbacks and better power management.

Jeff

[simon1966]

Tom, don't assume the short is as a result of pickup wheels as any metal bridging will conduct.. Besides, I pretty sure the Mike has pick up off the driver wheels as well as the tender. In fact, I would suspect that it is more likely to be one of the drivers. There is quite a bit of side to side play in the drivers pairs. Since this happens on the straight, then I suspect that one of the drivers may be bridging the gap right on the frog where the diverging route crosses. The picture shows 2 places on a Peco turnout (sorry I don't have an Atlas but it is sure to have similar places where this happens) where rails of oposing polarity are very close.

Any wheel crossing that gap will be a short. Perhaps the turnout is a little out of guage, perhaps there are some irregularities in the moldings of the guard rails that is "kicking" a wheel set across and causing the short. With all the power turned off, try just hand pushing/sliding the Mike thru the turnout and see if you can feel any kinks or bumps that might be a telltale.

[tstage]

Simon,

Thanks for the time and the explanation. However, I've noticed when the shorting occurs, the drivers are already completely through or past the turnout.

Tom

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert


Suggestions? Trade in that 1.7 amp PowerCab on a 2.5 amp Zephyr that doesn't have this problem.[:D][:D][:D]

(Oops, did I say that? Sorry, don't know what came over me... [;)] )

Steve

Boy I'm starting to like you more and more Steve... [;)]

The funny thing is, even the DCS series command stations from Digitrax are more sensitive to power issues than the Zephyr is. I'm convinced at this point that using a Zephyr and DB150's for power districts is a more reliable way to power a layout than using a DCS setup (and I've done several layouts both ways). I've said it before and I'll say it again, once you learn how to manage addresses by dispatching and paying attention to what's in the stack, a Zephyr is hands down the best system Digitrax currently offers regardless of layout size. You get all the power of the DCS box with very few drawbacks and better power management.

Jeff

Very true, I've had NO problems programming QSI decoders with my Zephyr onthe program track. ANd when I had 2 PCM, a BLI, a Soundtraxx, and 2 non-sound locos runnign all at the same time, I deliberately shorted the track and it powered right back up, none of this "inrush current" problem. Go figure - well, the Zephyr is actually the NEWEST Digitrax command station.

--Randy

[knewsom]

Tom,

It is definitely a short that is causing the issue. On my n-scale layout this occurred where I had two turnouts back to back creating almost and s-curve. I decided to remove one of the turnouts and sidings and my problem with the PowerCab resetting (shorting) went away. The time to detect the short on the PowerCab is much smaller than the time on my MRC PA (for my HO layout). If NCE gets back with you I am interested in knowing if you can set the short detection time on the PowerCab.

I also don't think that adding more feeders to the system will reduce the chance of having the short. I always thought that you added more feeders to the system to make the short be detected quicker by the command station, hence the place a quarter on the track test. You might be able to set up a separate power district with one of the PowerShields, which would detect the short prior to the PowerCab and shut down just that portion of the layout.


Thanks,
Kevin

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Thanks, Steve. [:)] Funny guy!

Sooooo, do you think that my idea of finally "legitimately" wiring up my layout with a bus wire and feeders would help alleviate this problem?

Tom

If the problem is a power pickup problem that makes your command station "think" there's a short, then probably yes, more feeders would help.

However, if it's a true shorting problem, then I don't think it would.

Based on some of the later posts I'm seeing now, it seems to be happening when at least some of the loco/tender wheels are going through a switch. That makes me think it's a true shorting problem.

Creep that loco through the trouble spot at the slowest possible speed that will cause the problem to occur, and mark the exact spot of one of the axles so you know right where it's happening.

Then, with the loco in that exact spot, examine every axle, on both the loco and the tender, for potential problems. With track power on and the loco stopped where you marked it, shift each axle side to side as much as free play will allow. Keep a close eye on the areas simon1966 pointed out in his photo. I'll bet you find the problem.

Steve

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

The funny thing is, even the DCS series command stations from Digitrax are more sensitive to power issues than the Zephyr is. I'm convinced at this point that using a Zephyr and DB150's for power districts is a more reliable way to power a layout than using a DCS setup (and I've done several layouts both ways). I've said it before and I'll say it again, once you learn how to manage addresses by dispatching and paying attention to what's in the stack, a Zephyr is hands down the best system Digitrax currently offers regardless of layout size. You get all the power of the DCS box with very few drawbacks and better power management.

Jeff

Jeff,
Interesting point of view. My layout is powered by a single DCS100 through a PM42, with three sections used for track power and the fourth for stationary decoders, and I've never had power management issues. Then again, I tend to overbuild my electrical infrastructure (I consider it cheap insurance against problems), so maybe it's just me.

Steve

[tstage]

I think I might try an experiment. I have an extra turnout lying around and most of the problems with the apparent "shorting" have been near turnouts. Using fresh rail joiners, I can hook up a couple of pieces of straight track on either side of the turnout and run the BLI Mike through the turnout to determine if the rail joiners are really causing a momentary continuity problem, or if it's really the turnout that's the culprit.

I'll report back "shortly"...

Tom

[tstage]

Okay, I'm back. This gets weirder by the minute. [%-)]

First off, I mentioned on another thread that I wasn't able to address one of my Lenz decoders to anything but "2". I tried addressing both a different 1-digit and 3-digit address (even the 4-digit loco address) on my programming track but to no avail. This particular decoder wouldn't budge from "2".

Well, after running my experiment (the results of which I'll get to in a minute), I put the locomotive with the above mentioned Lenz decoder back on the programming track, recalled "2", and it wouldn't run. I thought to myself, "Okay. Maybe there's a dead spot in the track." So I pushed it up the track. Nothing. So I decided to push up and down the track. Still nothing. I then decided to go out on a limb and punch in the 4-digit locomotive address. It's runs - go figure. [%-)] I'm going to have to go back and research that one again tomorrow.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Anyway, I tried my experiment and here's the results. It appears to be the turnouts and not the rail joiners...BUT...there's a twist to it.

Scenario #1
What I did first was to take my programming track, attached a spare turnout to one end with a couple more straight sections of track to extend it further so that I could run the Mike past the turnout. I used fresh rail joiners to connect the sections. The Mike rode through the turnout - forwards and backwards - with no incidences.

Scenario #2
I then replaced the spare turnout with a known problem turnout and ran the same test. I used a couple of "looser" rail joiners for this part of the experiment. The Mike failed to make it through the turnout without shutting down and resetting the Power Cab in either direction. Okay. So, it could STILL be a rail joiner or the turnout.

---

ObservationAt this point, I looked at where the "short" might be happening. The back wheels of the front wheel sets on the tender were very close to the frog. None of the other wheels seemed to be near anything that could cause a short. Anyway, back to the experiment.

---

Scenario #3
Since this turnout was a problem child on another part of the layout, I need to determine if the turnout was bad or the rail joiners were causing the problems. I ran the same setup, same turnout, but substituted brand new rail joiners at the track joint closest to the frog. I ran the Mike through the paces and...the Mike, again, failed to make it through the turnout without shutting down and resetting the Power Cab in either direction. In fact, it stopped in the exact location as in Scenario #2.

Scenario #4
Now that I'd determined that this particular turnout was the problem, and that whether the rail joiners were loose or tight didn't effect the outcome, I thought I'd try one more experiment to see what would happen. This time I decided to rotate the turnout 180 degrees. I started the Mike out and ran it through the turnout - points first - and it went through without a hitch. I then backed the Mike back through the turnout. Again, no incidence of any shorting or shutting down the Power Cab.

Scenario #5
Finding this rather puzzling, I decided to repeat Scenario #3 to confirm my findings. Amazingly, the Mike stopped and the Power Cab shut down and powered back up in the SAME exact place of the turnout as in Scenario #3 - in either direction.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In conclusion, I'm still baffled somewhat by the results. It does appear that the Atlas "Snap" turnouts are the logical and primary culprits of the shorting problem. Still, the location of the tender wheel sets in the turnout, in my opinion, are not entirely conclusive and convincing. The rail joiners are not entirely off my list yet either. I'm going to have to look at this some more. It's also strange that the exact same turnout that failed in Scenario #4 would actually pass with flying colors in Scenario #5 - just by rotating it 180 degrees CW or CCW.

Anyhow, any input or observations or further suggestions you might have are greatly appreciated. Thanks for wading through this somewhat long "dissertation".

Tom

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stevert


Jeff,
Interesting point of view. My layout is powered by a single DCS100 through a PM42, with three sections used for track power and the fourth for stationary decoders, and I've never had power management issues. Then again, I tend to overbuild my electrical infrastructure (I consider it cheap insurance against problems), so maybe it's just me.

Steve

Steve,

Running the power through the PM42 is probably isolating the quick to trip power circuit in the DCS (but I'm not really sure about that). Try running the DCS to a piece of track not using the PM, short a broadway locomotive on the track and see what happens. My guess is that depending on all the various factors, the DCS will not reset itself half the time, and by adding more locomotives to the circuit you quickly multiply the problem. I run HO scale with a bunch of friends at a club and we are constantly fighting short circuit problems with his DCS, and they are very reluctant to reset once tripped. For some reason the Zephyr does not have this problem, and regardless of what I've been able to do it's track power outputs, I have not been able to duplicate the power issues I've seen with the DCS.

If running the DCS through a PM seems to work for you, maybe will will have to give it a shot at the HO club. I know he has two PM42's, but they are just acting as reversing units right now so a turning the free outputs into power districts shouldn't be too hard to do.

Anyway, thanks for the information!

Jeff

[sledgehammer]

Tom
I got to hold the power cab in my hand last night and when I picked it up I founf it was alot lighter than my pro cab. I refering to the hammerhead. I m tinking there is alot less stuff in it .
The other thing im not impressed with is why the did not put the main board into some sort of protection. its stuck out there in the open and there is no way to fasen it to your layout.

[rrinker]

Good job of isolating the problem Tom. One thing to keep in mind about the wheel position is that if there is a spot in the frog where something can bridge the gap between opposite polarity rails, it doesn't have to be wheels on the loco that are connected to power pickups. Or it could be a combination of wheels on the same side.
On a different issue - just to avoid a potential OOPS, I would recommend you use a DPDT toggle instead of the Atlas Connector to switch your program track - the way you have it, you COULD accidently leave the main powered and program all locos.

--Randy