Staging yards, I want to learn...

[BigRusty]

The diameter of the helix is a function of the grade. For instance the circumference of a 30 inch radius curve is about (Pi D) 16 feet. At a two percent grade that raises approximately 4 inches per turn. The best way to obtain the most rise is to increase the run per turn by making the helix oval in shape thus stretching out the distance traveled per turn. Another way is to have any tangent track leading into the bottom and away from top of the helix itself on a grade.

[electrolove]

If I build my hidden staging yard under my benchwork. How do I get the track up to my visible level? And how do I build the hidden staging yard under the benchwork?

If I use a helix instead I can just make the hidden yard as a level and connect it to the helix. That seems like a good idea. What do you guys think? Is a helix a complicated thing to build?

[BigRusty]

First, you absolutely need to build the hidden staging loops first. They are the bottom level of a two or more tiers layout. I prefer that the "yard" portion be level. If I have a lot of room, I prefer to use a grade (uphill). Each 100 inches of track will rise 2 inches at a 2 percent grade. That's a nominal 8 feet. So to get a 6 inch clearance from the staging level to the main level, you need to increase a for little over 25 feet. If I have unused space in a corner, which is not unusual and I am short of room I use the helix. The ramp method is the simplest and the most reliable. Helixes are a pain to build and hard to access if any problems occur. In my new plan I am using the ramp method except for one helix to bring the Shore Line up to the highest tier.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

I want to learn about staging yards. How many different types are there to begin with?

I have heard words like 'double ended' and so on... Please tell me more about the different types and the pros and cons.

[:I]

[Anonymous]

Note to sledgehammer.
Homasote is a compressed fibre type of panel and comes in 4ft. X 8ft. panels. It is available in the Toronto, Ontario area at RONA Home Building Centres. I bought a sheet last summer and it cost me $35.00 Plus the usual Government cash grab of 15%. ( GST + PST ). It will support itself over short streches without sagging but I would suggest supports every 12 inches or so. It does quite a reasonable job on sound suppression. Sorry, but I have never heard the term "Micor", so I can't help you on that one.

Al.

[electrolove]

So let's say that I want hidden staging yards for Denver, Pueblo and Salt Lake City. How would you guys do that? Is it maybe possible to have only one hidden staging yard for all three places? I really like the idea of double ended staging yards.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: If I use a helix instead I can just make the hidden yard as a level and connect it to the helix. That seems like a good idea. What do you guys think? Is a helix a complicated thing to build?

electrolov
Here are several googled links about helix constuction. A lot of material but it will give you some idea of the various construction methods. I am interested because I have one on my layout plan and need to "bone up" (American term for learning [;)] )


http://users.rcn.com/weyand/tractronics/helix/hlxartcl.htm

http://www.dennismyrealtor.com/WatersideRwy01.htm

http://bsulliva.oozy.ws/rr/georgetown_branch/layout/

Commercial offering
http://www.easyhelix.com/

http://www.siliconvalleylines.org/benchwork/helix.html

http://members.cox.net/sn3nut/ophir%20loop%20modules.htm

[Anonymous]

Tom B
Off topic; have you got your BLI Austin & Tex Central RSD 15 yet?[:)]
As to topic matter; staging yards/helixes take room, and money, and require additional space in room to get to them. Certainly, they are excellent solutions to the theater/staging aspects of modeling.
My solution is different. I use staging carts. Full consists are parked on diorama-like carts (fully sceniced). The trackage consists of lengths of parallel tracks. The carts require no power and no turnouts. I have supplied battery power to light the buildings. Power to the track is provided by Peco's clever 'Loco Cradle', absolutely perfect for my use. The cradle was designed to roll a loco onto it & move it off layout, w/o having to touch the delicate details.
Does this method have drawbacks?,....in abundance; compromises?....... many, but this hobby is full of compromises. Anyway it works for me. [img]

[Anonymous]

Sorry, tried to post a pic to the above reply. I must be extra tired or extra stupid, maybe both, couldn't do it. Clicking on insert image did not bring up any browser. Even had trouble getting back to this page. I'm not familiar with categories, I keep trying to find this discussion in 'layouts & layout building'.

[Anonymous]

Dont forget extra finger spacing between tracks.

Dont forget rerailers at the ends where trains exit or enter. (Not on the main but on the train's own track near the main)

[Anonymous]

There was a story in either Model Railroader or one of the annuals awhile back. The writer talked about having two stub-ended staging yards but have them connected so that you can go from one throat to the other. That way instead of needing to turn them around, you can just back them up right back where they started from. The two staging yards form a kind of X with their throats crossing before or after they enter the mainline.

[Anonymous]

not to mention fiddle yards. Staging requires a lot to engines, which some don't have, fiddly yards allow you to change consists during opperation sessions, thereby requiring fewer locos.(more my style) and because they aren't full of trains waiting to come out, they don't need as much space. Remeber the rule for staging, calculate how much you'll need(how may track, not length) then double! you'll need them all. DD

[wickman]

After all this helpful conversation I think I've learned enuff to get myself in trouble and I think I've narrowed down to 2 possiblities for a staging exit off the bench to down below ...you see in the pic 2 red arrows the top I've removed the one rail and cut off the main line rail if going with that rail I would cut the hole in the bench and run a decline under neath and the main line would simply reroute around a curve once the 3 turnouts are removed main objective would be to get the rail down below to the correct elevation then make the staging yrd from there with plenty of room to play with. The other option would be in the lower left corner which is basicly unused area running a turnout off the edge of the bench. I think the decline would be much more reliable than a helix . I think idea one would be quite practical as the decline would be partially hidden behind the new hill and buildings and removing the siding rail would give adequate space for the exit portal and scenery to hide it additionally.

If I were to go with first idea where u see the styro block on track and just before it is where decline would have to begin and to left of block is the track that would need to be removed to make room and main line would be on track left to that one.


If I were go with second idea you can see in pic in corner circled and xed where turnout would need to be


:)
Any suggestions please or can you see why it may not work out ?
[:)]

[pcarrell]

Why not do both?

Have it go to the underside on both and then connect in a big yard down there. Think pretzel.

The reason I suggest this is because then you can have true east-west type operations. Trains emerge "westbound" from one ramp, traverse the layout, then disappear down the other ramp. Down below the train pulls into it's storage track and it's already correctly positioned for the next "westbound" run. The train looks like it came from somewhere else, went through your part of the world, then went somewhere else, just like real trains do.

Another idea is a reverse loop to reverse loop type setup. The two reverse loop's are both under the table, each connected to different ramps. Each of the reverse loops are set up as a through yard that folds back on itself, kind of like this;


(this is just a VERY rough idea of what I'm talking about)

If you set it up this way then you can run a train "westbound" and then hold it in the other loop for a bit, then send it back "eastbound". That way it looks like the train came from somewhere, went somewhere else, then came back.

Just some thoughts.........

[electrolove]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Why not do both?

Have it go to the underside on both and then connect in a big yard down there. Think pretzel.

The reason I suggest this is because then you can have true east-west type operations. Trains emerge "westbound" from one ramp, traverse the layout, then disappear down the other ramp. Down below the train pulls into it's storage track and it's already correctly positioned for the next "westbound" run. The train looks like it came from somewhere else, went through your part of the world, then went somewhere else, just like real trains do.

Another idea is a reverse loop to reverse loop type setup. The two reverse loop's are both under the table, each connected to different ramps. Each of the reverse loops are set up as a through yard that folds back on itself, kind of like this;


(this is just a VERY rough idea of what I'm talking about)

If you set it up this way then you can run a train "westbound" and then hold it in the other loop for a bit, then send it back "eastbound". That way it looks like the train came from somewhere, went somewhere else, then came back.

Just some thoughts.........

I like your idea very much. The best part is when you talked about "westbound" and "eastbound", and when you said the following:

'That way it looks like the train came from somewhere, went somewhere else, then came back.'

I like that.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

I like your idea very much. The best part is when you talked about "westbound" and "eastbound", and when you said the following:

'That way it looks like the train came from somewhere, went somewhere else, then came back.'

I like that.

I actually picked that up from somewhere years ago and it stuck. It made sense to me, so I used it.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Why not do both?

Have it go to the underside on both and then connect in a big yard down there. Think pretzel.

I do like the idea of both does this mean that going down in the middle of the yrd is a fairly good idea? Problem with the option 2 at the corner of the layout is I'm about 3 feet from end of layout and I really do want to stay away from a helix once I get down below the table I have lots of room to design the trackage I would think that 3.5 feet would give me quite the grade and although my trains for now all run with 2 units ... I should maybe take some better pics for use guys cause it sounds as usual that use have some good input .[:D]

[pcarrell]

3 feet would indeed be tight. Disguising a track dropping into a hole in the middle of the yard would also be tough. Even thinking of a good scenic treatment is difficult.

I wonder if you can move those points where the track decends. Could the point on the left be moved around towards the bottom left? How about moving the point on the top over to the bottom right? Both of these would ease the grades and the scenic treatments would be easier.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

3 feet would indeed be tight. Disguising a track dropping into a hole in the middle of the yard would also be tough. Even thinking of a good scenic treatment is difficult.

I wonder if you can move those points where the track decends. Could the point on the left be moved around towards the bottom left? How about moving the point on the top over to the bottom right? Both of these would ease the grades and the scenic treatments would be easier.

Any chance of you grabbing one of my pics and drawing in your idea it would really help me seeing what your seeing and would be very much appreciated [:)]

[pcarrell]

I wish I was that technically savy!

I can try to describe it better though.

The ramp on the left would start near the "2" on the trackplan you posted. It could start decending slowly and then as it moves around behind the TT it gets more grade.

The other would start somewhere around the small runaround on the siding in the bottom right. The ramp would of course be on the main, but near that corner. It could disappear into some dense trees or something to disguise the fact that it goes below.

If that's still as clear as mud maybe you could give me a brief crash course in how to steal your trackplan and modify it.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

I wish I was that technically savy!

If that's still as clear as mud maybe you could give me a brief crash course in how to steal your trackplan and modify it.

LOL well getting clearer ...kinda but any way to grab my plan you just run your mouse over the pic you want and a little row of icons should come up in the left upper corner of that pic you just click on the little floppy disk and save it to the desktop ( easiest place to find it) then you can draw away and repost it in your reply . I think you can also just right click on the pic and then go down the list to save picture as and follow the same instructions for using the floppy disk icon . I hope that was not clear as mud LOL[:)]

[pcarrell]

OK!!!!

Maybe something along these lines;



You may need to move the turnout on the left towards the bottom to make the grades work, but this is a rough idea. I also added a grade up after the turnout to the lower level on the right side. That should help give you some clearence.

I know this is a very rough drawing, but maybe you can see where I was going with it?

I've got to run for now, but I'll check in later. Bye for now.

P.S. - That wasn't so hard. If I'd have thought about it I probably could have figured it out.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

So let's say that I want hidden staging yards for Denver, Pueblo and Salt Lake City. How would you guys do that? Is it maybe possible to have only one hidden staging yard for all three places? I really like the idea of double ended staging yards.

My double ended staging yards (with return loops) represent Points West, and Points East. I model a freelanced Class 1in the Tulsa Oklahoma area based on the actual BNSF prototype between Springfield MO and Dallas TX. I did not limit them to specific locations since I want to connect with the entire system my railroad serves as well as interchang/run through opportunities. For example, my Birmingham (AL)-Long Beach (CA) stack train, St. Louis (MO)-Tulsa (OK) Merchandise, and, Galesburg (IL)-Temple (TX) Merchandise trains all originate in East staging. They end up at West staging after turning around on the return loop. Then they are ready to go East again.

So by defining the staging as East and West and not specific cities, I can have trains from/to points well beyond the limits of my layout or adjancent divisions.

Hope that helps,

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by riverhill

Tom B
Off topic; have you got your BLI Austin & Tex Central RSD 15 yet?[:)]

Nope. Someone clue me in - what is difference between RS and RSD. I googled and am no wiser.

And, sorry for continuing off-topic [V]

-Tom

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike Rehling

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

So let's say that I want hidden staging yards for Denver, Pueblo and Salt Lake City. How would you guys do that? Is it maybe possible to have only one hidden staging yard for all three places? I really like the idea of double ended staging yards.

My double ended staging yards (with return loops) represent Points West, and Points East. I model a freelanced Class 1in the Tulsa Oklahoma area based on the actual BNSF prototype between Springfield MO and Dallas TX. I did not limit them to specific locations since I want to connect with the entire system my railroad serves as well as interchang/run through opportunities. For example, my Birmingham (AL)-Long Beach (CA) stack train, St. Louis (MO)-Tulsa (OK) Merchandise, and, Galesburg (IL)-Temple (TX) Merchandise trains all originate in East staging. They end up at West staging after turning around on the return loop. Then they are ready to go East again.

So by defining the staging as East and West and not specific cities, I can have trains from/to points well beyond the limits of my layout or adjancent divisions.

Hope that helps,

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

That sounds very interesting and much worth seeing would you have a site with your layout or something along that line[:)]
Lynn

[BigRusty]

The reason for having two staging loops is that a railroad's trains go somewhere, either to the East or the West and come from somewhere, either from the East or West. To create that illusion trains that depart to the East must return from the East not from the West. To eliminate the "trains chasing their tails" consequence, at the end of the run to either end, they are held for a time and another train comes from the East, to pass through the focal point area and departs to the West. The focal point area can be the whole layout . When the train has traversed the entire layout, it disappears. No train is passing by the same place twice. In my New Haven layout in the planning stages, the New Haven Union Station is the focal point, but there is also substantial double track Shore LIne trackage on the second (helix accessed) tier, and four track electrified trackage to the West. Trains arriving from the West are electric powered and so an engine change is made to either steam or diesel for the run on the non electrified Shore Line to the East. Trains coming from the East (representing Boston) change over to electric. Many other things happen, diners are added or dropped as are express, RPM and sleepers. At New Haven, the Hartford/Springfield cars which came up from NYC are pulled off the rear of the train by swtchers to another track and power added to take that route. Lots of passenger car action. In addition, made up symbol freights arrive from the West staging simulating the NY Harbor Car Floats and the Maybrook interchange via the Poughkeepsie bridge. These trains go through the station to the hidden Cedar Hill staging yard. As in the New Haven, a small yard (the Water Street Yard) adjacent ot the station makes up local freights for the Canal Line and the Shore Line to service industries along the line. Now, you have the best of both worlds. Run though passenger and symbol feight trains, MU passenger locals making station stops, and switching industrial sidings if that is what you want to do tonight. Life is sweet! I will be running a model railroad as the real railroad did.

[Anonymous]

Ok. i don't know much about staging, but here's what i can tell you
- a 5% grade might not be such a problem if you assign a few locomotives as a hepler set to help pu***rains out of staging. It could add some operating fun.
- you definitly want a double-ended yard; otherwise you will have to back trains in or out (depending on where they're going/coming from)
- measure a single car that you plan to run a lot of , next figure out how long your staging track will have to be to hold the cars you want to run.
- consider a few hidden short tracks for parking locomotives; if you don't have room for them all at your enginehouse, ect.
- don't waste money on cork roadbed unless the noise is a REAL problem. when i build my staging yard the track will be nailed to the plywood.(no cork)

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

- don't waste money on cork roadbed unless the noise is a REAL problem. when i build my staging yard the track will be nailed to the plywood.(no cork)

I went to the local home depot and bought a cube of 1/4 inch thick foam insulation. It's big cube that's folded acordian (sp?) style. It set me back 25 clams and gave me enough material to do 10 layouts. It quiets things down quite a bit.