Staging yards, I want to learn...

[electrolove]

I want to learn about staging yards. How many different types are there to begin with?

I have heard words like 'double ended' and so on... Please tell me more about the different types and the pros and cons.

[pcarrell]

See if this doesn't help;

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/Staging.html

[electrolove]

Great answer to my question, that link was awesome, thanks...

What size of turnouts do you guys recommend in a staging yard? Let's say a double-ended staging yard with 8 tracks. If I use #4 all the way, will that result in problems with longer locos and cars, or can I run everything thru a #4? I'm talking diesels now, not steam.

[outdoorsfellar]

Use # 6's if you can. Better operations.

[Anonymous]

My 6 axle locos go thru my atlas #4 turnouts with no problems. But if I had room I would have used #6 turnouts.

[wickman]

Wish I would have come across this kinda thread about 9 months ago I designed my entire layout with a huge yrd not really understanding about what staging was I always considered a big open yard the same as staging yard if use fine folks don't mind I can post my track plan so as to show the yrd area I have . Now I'm kinda concerned as to whether this is still considered appropriate for staging ?I don't mean to step on any toes here [:)]
You can see the yrd at the top going from the left side towards the right .Would this still be considered a staging area or is staging areas more often than not hidden ?
Another question I'm curious about is is staging kinda the new trend or has it been around on layouts for a while and if you run short trins compared to longer trains is staging recommended and when is it wanted on a layout ?

The yard is actually behind a new hill that I made now and although you can still see it

[selector]

My gawd, what have you done to the track below that passover? It's covered in plaster!!!

[:O]

[wickman]

LOL there's tape protecting it [:)]

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

Great answer to my question, that link was awesome, thanks...

You're welcome!

You should hit the link at the top of the page. It takes you to the homepage and from there you can explore tons of different topics on layout design. I bookmarked that badboy!

QUOTE: What size of turnouts do you guys recommend in a staging yard? Let's say a double-ended staging yard with 8 tracks. If I use #4 all the way, will that result in problems with longer locos and cars, or can I run everything thru a #4? I'm talking diesels now, not steam.

# 4's will probably work since you're going slow in the yard, and for off-stage yards they would probably be best as they will save you some room, making the yard a little longer, but for on-stage yards a # 6 would look much better. Diesels are much more forgiving then steam.

[electrolove]

Yes I was thinking of a hidden staging yard with #4 in my example...

[BigRusty]

That is a good discourse on staging. It omits what I consider to be the best of staging methods, the multi track reverse loop staging. This is used at the end of the line so that many trains can be stored there and recalled as required by timetable, or whatever. When you have the space it is best to have these on a level below the main layout level accessed either by a helix or long down/up ramps. If it is hidden, there should be rerailers after each switch. I place my center piece (Ellison's stage) at the center of my track plan. I have a reverse loop staging area at each end. The tracks disappear into a tunnel or behind a hill or building whatever. This represents the continuing journey either to a connecting railroad or adjoining sub of the same railroad. Adds GREATLY to the illusion of the train actually going somewhere rather than chasing itself around in circles. It is what is called a "dogbone" layout and trackage can be single or multi track. In my planned layout, the New Haven Union Station is the centerpiece and the east end double trackage becomes the Shore Line to Boston and the West end becomes the 4 track Electrified division to New York. When a train reaches the staging it is "parked" and another is brought out to continue the operational cycle. Staging tracks should be as long as the longest train. The New Haven dragged 100 car freights up from the Hudson car float docks so I keep my longest tracks (the outer ones) to 60 feet. Each inner track is successively smaller, some of which can hold several trains, MU locals for instance. I have a small yard adjacent to the station area (the Water Street Yard) where local freights for the both ends can be made up to service the industrial sidings as in the prototype. The mammoth Cedar Hill Hump Yard is replicated by another hidden reverse loop staging area where the NY freights are stored prior to returning. Using this method you can operate your railroad as the prototype did in all respects. A lot less boring than running trtains around in circles.

[jecorbett]

Hidden staging yards need to be as reliable as possible because generally they are not as accessible as modeled yards. Usually they are on a lower level, on the opposite side of the wall, on the other side of a backdrop etc. You want as few derailments there as possible so I would go with #6 if at all possible. Also, it is a good idea to put rerailer tracks at the entrance and exit to each track to give you a little additional insurance.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove
What size of turnouts do you guys recommend in a staging yard? Let's say a double-ended staging yard with 8 tracks. If I use #4 all the way, will that result in problems with longer locos and cars, or can I run everything thru a #4?

A true number 4 might be a bit tight especially for diesels with 6 axle trucks (like the E8 or PA that would typically be on the California Zephyr). Atlas custom line turnouts are slightly bigger than a #4 and I've not had the same problem with them. Another problem you might encounter with #4s are "S" curves created in the ladders, that could be a problem for the long 85' passenger cars in the CZ. I would recommend if at all possible to use #6 or greater turnouts.

Another thing I might ask. Is this really going to be a yard (where trains are made up and broken down), or is it just holding tracks where whole trains are just parked to be used later with the same consist?

[electrolove]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove
What size of turnouts do you guys recommend in a staging yard? Let's say a double-ended staging yard with 8 tracks. If I use #4 all the way, will that result in problems with longer locos and cars, or can I run everything thru a #4?

A true number 4 might be a bit tight especially for diesels with 6 axle trucks (like the E8 or PA that would typically be on the California Zephyr). Atlas custom line turnouts are slightly bigger than a #4 and I've not had the same problem with them. Another problem you might encounter with #4s are "S" curves created in the ladders, that could be a problem for the long 85' passenger cars in the CZ. I would recommend if at all possible to use #6 or greater turnouts.

Another thing I might ask. Is this really going to be a yard (where trains are made up and broken down), or is it just holding tracks where whole trains are just parked to be used later with the same consist?

Only parked and used again with the same consist.

[electrolove]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRusty

That is a good discourse on staging. It omits what I consider to be the best of staging methods, the multi track reverse loop staging. This is used at the end of the line so that many trains can be stored there and recalled as required by timetable, or whatever. When you have the space it is best to have these on a level below the main layout level accessed either by a helix or long down/up ramps. If it is hidden, there should be rerailers after each switch. I place my center piece (Ellison's stage) at the center of my track plan. I have a reverse loop staging area at each end. The tracks disappear into a tunnel or behind a hill or building whatever. This represents the continuing journey either to a connecting railroad or adjoining sub of the same railroad. Adds GREATLY to the illusion of the train actually going somewhere rather than chasing itself around in circles. It is what is called a "dogbone" layout and trackage can be single or multi track. In my planned layout, the New Haven Union Station is the centerpiece and the east end double trackage becomes the Shore Line to Boston and the West end becomes the 4 track Electrified division to New York. When a train reaches the staging it is "parked" and another is brought out to continue the operational cycle. Staging tracks should be as long as the longest train. The New Haven dragged 100 car freights up from the Hudson car float docks so I keep my longest tracks (the outer ones) to 60 feet. Each inner track is successively smaller, some of which can hold several trains, MU locals for instance. I have a small yard adjacent to the station area (the Water Street Yard) where local freights for the both ends can be made up to service the industrial sidings as in the prototype. The mammoth Cedar Hill Hump Yard is replicated by another hidden reverse loop staging area where the NY freights are stored prior to returning. Using this method you can operate your railroad as the prototype did in all respects. A lot less boring than running trtains around in circles.

Do you have a trackplan or picture of the multi track reverse loop staging?

[pcarrell]

OK, I'll give this a shot,...though I'm no expert.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

I always considered a big open your the same as staging yard

There is a difference between an operational yard and a staging yard. The rules are kind of loose, but they generally are like this;

An operations yard is somewhere that real RR type operations are handled and modeled as part of the action of the layout. You see a full and acurate representation of a RR yard and it is modeled as a feature of the modeled portion of the layout. It operates by much of the same rules that apply to real RR's.

A staging yard is usually, but not always, a yard where full trains are stored out of view and ready to roll out on-stage to do their thing. Staging yards are also sometimes called fiddle yards because this is where the 0-5-0 switcher (your hand) operates. You can swap out cars and whole trains at will and you are not concidered to be breaking any rules if you do.

Some people even store two identical trains here and face them in opposite directions. One train will have, say, loaded coal cars, and it's twin (same road numbers and same weathering) will have empty coal cars. This way you can have one train traverse the layout, coming from somewhere and going to somewhere else, and then pull into the staging area. Then a little while later it's twin comes from the place were the first was going, and heads back to the starting point. This process can be repeated if the operating session is long enough.

The whole idea of a staging yard is like a theatrical stage. The trains are the actors and the stage is the modeled portion of the layout. The wings of the stage are the staging yards. It's where the actors (the trains) get ready to perform.

QUOTE: Now I'm kinda concerned as to whether this is still considered appropriate for staging?

It actually would work better for staging then operations. It's missing some key tracks for operations. For staging it should be enough to handle a couple of trains and let you "fiddle".

I assume you have access to the top portion of the layout for this purpose?

QUOTE: I don't mean to step on any toes here [:)]

Nonsense!

QUOTE: You can see the yrd at the top going from the left side towards the right .Would this still be considered a staging area or is staging areas more often than not hidden ?

See above.

QUOTE: Another question I'm curious about is is staging kinda the new trend or has it been around on layouts for a while and if you run short trins compared to longer trains is staging recommended and when is it wanted on a layout ?

It's been around a long time. It's used on the other side of the pond alot. Space is limited and so staging is quite popular.

One thing I noticed is that 5% grade. That is pretty steep. You might want to dial that back a bit.

[BigRusty]

I am working in CadRail. I wasn't able to do what I wanted re the New Haven Station area in my 2 car carage so I am planning to build a 24 x 44 ft building to house the revised layout. If you have single track, just design an elongated reverse loop. On the inside, put the number of parallel tracks you need connected by ladder tracks at each end. The innermost track should be at your minimum radius and the outer ones successively larger. Sorry I don't have a current design since I am working on designing the building first.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRusty

That is a good discourse on staging. It omits what I consider to be the best of staging methods, the multi track reverse loop staging. This is used at the end of the line so that many trains can be stored there and recalled as required by timetable, or whatever. When you have the space it is best to have these on a level below the main layout level accessed either by a helix or long down/up ramps. If it is hidden, there should be rerailers after each switch. I place my center piece (Ellison's stage) at the center of my track plan. I have a reverse loop staging area at each end. The tracks disappear into a tunnel or behind a hill or building whatever. This represents the continuing journey either to a connecting railroad or adjoining sub of the same railroad. Adds GREATLY to the illusion of the train actually going somewhere rather than chasing itself around in circles. It is what is called a "dogbone" layout and trackage can be single or multi track. In my planned layout, the New Haven Union Station is the centerpiece and the east end double trackage becomes the Shore Line to Boston and the West end becomes the 4 track Electrified division to New York. When a train reaches the staging it is "parked" and another is brought out to continue the operational cycle. Staging tracks should be as long as the longest train. The New Haven dragged 100 car freights up from the Hudson car float docks so I keep my longest tracks (the outer ones) to 60 feet. Each inner track is successively smaller, some of which can hold several trains, MU locals for instance. I have a small yard adjacent to the station area (the Water Street Yard) where local freights for the both ends can be made up to service the industrial sidings as in the prototype. The mammoth Cedar Hill Hump Yard is replicated by another hidden reverse loop staging area where the NY freights are stored prior to returning. Using this method you can operate your railroad as the prototype did in all respects. A lot less boring than running trtains around in circles.

I actually had my staging set up like this. It worked great.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
One thing I noticed is that 5% grade. That is pretty steep. You might want to dial that back a bit.

wow you have a good eye for grade thats exactley what it is ...I neen 2 deisels to pull 10 fully loaded cars up the grade witout a problem [:)]

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
One thing I noticed is that 5% grade. That is pretty steep. You might want to dial that back a bit.

wow you have a good eye for grade thats exactley what it is ...I neen 2 deisels to pull 10 fully loaded cars up the grade witout a problem [:)]

Not really,...it's marked in big red letters![;)][:D]

[wickman]

Now thats funney ...so it is [:)]

[sledgehammer]

Do you gentelment put road bed under your hidden staging? and on a helix as well.
I'm in the process of building a hidden staging area under my layout and was wondering if it would make a difference to use road bed.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sledgehammer

Do you gentelment put road bed under your hidden staging? and on a helix as well.
I'm in the process of building a hidden staging area under my layout and was wondering if it would make a difference to use road bed.

I used 1/4 inch foam on my N scale for the sound deadening. It worked out well.

[pcarrell]

In case anybody's interested, here's the link to the layout design primer homepage.

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/%7Esmithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html

I found this to be a wealth of information on the subject. I bookmarked it.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: Do you have a trackplan or picture of the multi track reverse loop staging?

electrolov, I have something designed similar to what you describe in the link below. The dangling track at the right enters the helix to the upper level. Trains coming down into staging take the first TO and traverse around to the back of the staging yard where they are then ready for their next appearance. I designed to hold 8 cars plus loco as my layout is in the 1945-1955 era. I'm planning #5 Walthers-Shinohara TO's with re-railers in each yard leg.

Lower level reverse staging
http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/Garage_lower.pdf

Also, jfugate has some interesting material on staging yards relative to other parts of the layout at http://siskiyou.railfan.net/model/layoutDesign/layout.html

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sledgehammer
Do you gentelment put road bed under your hidden staging? and on a helix as well.

Yes, but mostly for noise deadening reasons. A train can make a lot of noise in a helix. Just a flat sheet of homosote or micor is what I usually have under hidden yard/staging tracks.

[wickman]

What would the minimum radius requirements be for a helix in HO or would that depend on how much room is available?[:)]
Lynn

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

What would the minimum radius requirements be for a helix in HO or would that depend on how much room is available?[:)]
Lynn

How much room is available & what you intent to run on it.

[sledgehammer]

Texas Zepher
Ok i have a small question What is homosote or this micro you are talking about

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

What would the minimum radius requirements be for a helix in HO or would that depend on how much room is available?[:)]
Lynn

How much room is available & what you intent to run on it.

I'm trying to figure out what options I have for running an entire train down to a staging yard the only place I can see where I could put a staging yrd on my layout or near it would be below the bench work .Below the table sounds like a pretty common place seeing as the staging yrd would only be used to hold ready loaded trains.[:)]