All Hail John Allen!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

They would all go out of business and the 100% acurate people would have to build everything from scratch. There would be no forms like this. I know of two people that would be left in the hobby. Yourself, and that fellow I mentioned in the prior post who had done 3/4 of a mile of RGS.

To be 100% accurate, everything would need to be scratchbuilt anyway, so the 100 percenters wouldn't be impacted.
No one makes an exactly prototype rail profile, couplers (though some come close), and what-not. And as i said in my precious post, a true exact-scale model would have scale material thicknesses, as well. Who would have any use for a tinfoil Big Boy?

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton


Attempt? Hardly. It's done all the time by modellers in the UK, Europe and Australia. As I stated previously, it works easily if you choose a reasonably small location. Try to model an entire division or railroad, it doesn't work. I suppose it is popular in these countries because there are many compact locations to choose from.

While I'm sure your attempt at being totally realistic is genuine, the simple fact is that, in any scale smaller than probably S, you cannot do it and have anything other than a static display that would suffer damage at the merest touch.
For example, take a look at track elements. In HO, fishplates would be about as sturdy as tinfoil. You're going to hold your rail ends together with these (doing it another way would not be prototypical)? And how about the size of the bolts? True-scale fishplate bolts would be so weak that you would most likely damage them trying to install them, let alone tring to run a train on the rails they join. As far as spikes - true-scale spikes would hold basically nothing to the ties. Using European methods to attach rails to ties? Here again the bolts would be so small as to be ineffective.
Exact-scale everything implies material thicknesses are exact-scale, as well. Structures, rolling stock, etc. would be so flimsy that to handle it would be to destroy it. I've done some engineering modeling - I know.
So even an exact-scale approach has to have some compromises. Unless, of course, you've found a source of the mineral unobtainium from which to make your parts....[:D]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Suddenly the market for 4-6-6-4s, Big Boys, and all other large power would be zippo. Other than the collectors who put them on shelves there would be no place an ordinary person could run them.

Probably, but so what if it did?

They would all go out of business and the 100% acurate people would have to build everything from scratch. There would be no forms like this. I know of two people that would be left in the hobby. Yourself, and that fellow I mentioned in the prior post who had done 3/4 of a mile of RGS.

QUOTE: If you only have a limited space, why try to jam all of Sherman Hill into it? Why not something smaller and more manageable?

Thats easy - I can't think of any place I could model 1 to 1 that wouldn't be boring. Even with my anticipated 30' x 90' space. Not to mention watching or even running the one train that would come by every 30 minutes or so if a really busy place was choosen (because Time doesn't scale). Like I said in a prior post if I want that much reality I'll take the MS Train Simulator software fire up the middle of Montana and be bored that way for a lot less cost.

[davekelly]

Guy,

Excellently said. Agree with or disagree with his style - the guy was one of the greats.

Selector,

Thirteen's my limit on snitchengruben (sp?)! And heck, we'd run RTR for Randolph Scott!

Mark,

I don't understand you. Earlier when you thought my post about what constitutes a "serious" modeler might somehow diss you and you became upset asking why do we disparge others. Yet from what I can see you come right back and do it yourself - calling a man delusional because others call him one of the greats. Maybe someday after I see all the published work by you in which you show your work and share your obvious talents with the rest of us thus helping to propell us to "serious" status I can better understand where you are coming from.

[Anonymous]

Chip,

John Allen fan?? You bet I am.

Influence on my modeling ??? Absolutely!!!

Homage to John Allen on my last layout??? Yep!!! Look at the canyon scene in my pictures at rail images (click on the link in my signature)

He is one of the reasons I got interested in model trains.

Layout as an art form?? Yes, absolutely. I feel that the best layouts have a theatrical aspect to them. I’ve been to Jack Burgess’ layout and even the strictest prototype modeler’s layouts have a sense of drama. His layout is beautiful and is very artistic…..John Allen was very artistic and very inspiring. He did a great job of firing the imagination of future modelers such as myself.

Is John Allen over the top in terms of his vision??? Depends on what you like. I can see people not liking the vision he is striving for, however this is a subjective area and there are no right or wrong answers here. Only opinions. Some posters have confused their opinions about aesthetics with the truth in an area where there can only be opinions. Being in the hobby for a long time doesn’t change the fact that you are offering an opinion.

Gew Gaw!!!! (gee gaw) That is a term for over the top weathering and lots of over done details. I think certain posters are irritated by gew gaw and that is a common mistake that newbies make in weathering their stuff. However, I know some great modelers that do gew gaw, not because they cant do a more realistic style (or don’t know any better), but because they like the gew gaw approach.

As for Allen’s talent???? He was quite an excellent modeler and a huge influence in the hobby pushing it towards the proto-realism standards of today. He scratch built nearly everything, hand laid his own track, operated regularly and was very well published with excellent photos. His use of mirrors, selective compression, forced perspective, lighting effects etc. was well ahead of his time. He started his layout in the late fifties/early Sixties and was using very crude products by today’s standards to reach a high level of realism.…Those of you who were in the hobby then know that he and others pointed the way to a more realistic approach to the hobby. Go back and look at your old MRR magazines from that time. There are not many layouts from that era that stand the test of time as well as the Gorre and Daphetid (spelling). Check out the Wescott book on John Allen if you haven’t already done so.

As for the poster who insinuated that only less experienced modelers like John Allen’s work, I would say rubbish!!!!! I know many excellent modelers who were around during Allen’s era. They have a healthy respect for his accomplishments and tell me that Allen was well respected by most people in the hobby at the time.

Finally I have to say that Allen strikes me as a rather tragic figure as well. Living alone and building his empire. Dying right before it was finished (1973) and then having it burn up in a fire, just days after his death. Hollywood couldn’t have done it much better. The Wescott book gives a real good sense of this….

I think that all the attention that people give to John Allen has caused a bit of backlash. There were lots of other great modelers around in his day and certainly the hobby has passed Allen by in terms of realism and other areas. However, none of this dims my respect for his accomplishments in the hobby.

Just my two cents,

[selector]

Beans? We don' need no stinkin' beans! BRAAAAAAPP!!

[davekelly]

From everything I've read about John Allen, the cool thing is that he never became full of himself.

[twhite]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

And for those who've offered nasty insinuations about the talents of freelancers, and particularly for those who've criticized The Wizard of Monterey...(snip)

The Wizard of Monterey?

Someone tell him he's dreaming.

Sorry Mark, that's what John Allen was known as for years--even in MR magazine. Can't fight facts, my friend--or history.
Tom

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

QUOTE: Originally posted by steamage

Okay... I have giant ants in my Los Angeles River bed. Not because of John Allen's influence, but because I liked the old 1950s science fiction movie THEM.

Steamage,

That is simply boss... I still watch THEM to this day, even though the OL thinks I'm a bit weird for doing it... What a great idea.

Peace.

Coyote

Heck, I've been trying to figure out how to work "Blazing Saddles" into my layout, mexican banditos and all.

Jarrell

Well, for starters, you could always eat several plates of beans just prior to an operating session.

Then send someone out for a [censored] load of dimes.

Andre

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

QUOTE: Originally posted by steamage

Okay... I have giant ants in my Los Angeles River bed. Not because of John Allen's influence, but because I liked the old 1950s science fiction movie THEM.

Steamage,

That is simply boss... I still watch THEM to this day, even though the OL thinks I'm a bit weird for doing it... What a great idea.

Peace.

Coyote

Heck, I've been trying to figure out how to work "Blazing Saddles" into my layout, mexican banditos and all.

Jarrell

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

[Upon reflection of the attempt at 100% accurate and to scale modeling (no selective compression et. al.), I would think that such a concept would put most of the current manufacturers out of business.

Attempt? Hardly. It's done all the time by modellers in the UK, Europe and Australia. As I stated previously, it works easily if you choose a reasonably small location. Try to model an entire division or railroad, it doesn't work. I suppose it is popular in these countries because there are many compact locations to choose from.

QUOTE: Suddenly the market for 4-6-6-4s, Big Boys, and all other large power would be zippo. Other than the collectors who put them on shelves there would be no place an ordinary person could run them.

Probably, but so what if it did? If you only have a limited space, why try to jam all of Sherman Hill into it? Why not something smaller and more manageable?

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

And for those who've offered nasty insinuations about the talents of freelancers, and particularly for those who've criticized The Wizard of Monterey...(snip)

The Wizard of Monterey?

Someone tell him he's dreaming.

Also Sprach Zarathustra.

Andre

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

And for those who've offered nasty insinuations about the talents of freelancers, and particularly for those who've criticized The Wizard of Monterey...(snip)

The Wizard of Monterey?

Someone tell him he's dreaming.

[SpaceMouse]

I think what we are dealing with is people who want to particpate but lack social skills. What is left is the which roads do you model polls. Since these people tend to be yong, I personally can cut them a little slack. As they see how these posts are taken, they usually back down. Unfortunatley or fortunately, there is a steady stream of these newcomers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher
While this has turned sort of serious....haven't you noticed the intentionally serious posts don't get that many replies. It's the silly ones like "What Music do you listen to" that seem to attract a zillion replies.

Thats why this forum is getting harder to read by the day.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jjbmish
I hope nobody asks a question that's really serious. LOL

While this has turned sort of serious....haven't you noticed the intentionally serious posts don't get that many replies. It's the silly ones like "What Music do you listen to" that seem to attract a zillion replies.

Upon reflection of the attempt at 100% accurate and to scale modeling (no selective compression et. al.), I would think that such a concept would put most of the current manufacturers out of business. Suddenly the market for 4-6-6-4s, Big Boys, and all other large power would be zippo. Other than the collectors who put them on shelves there would be no place an ordinary person could run them.

[SpaceMouse]

You know a tarrantula might be really cool. They don't make webs and they'd keep the other crittters at a safe distance. They might even enjoy a ride on box car or something. Although they'd get brushed off in the tunnels.

[ARTHILL]

Will this pass piccalotess in length. What do you predict?

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by steamage

Okay... I have giant ants in my Los Angeles River bed. Not because of John Allen's influence, but because I liked the old 1950s science fiction movie THEM. I model the prototype Southern Pacific the way I remember it in the early 1960s, but there are things I didn't include in my modeling of because of things I didn't like about the 60s.

I like looking at the different skill levels of modelers in magazines, or on DVD's, figuring that I might just learn something new, or some modeler may have a great idea. I don't think Model Railroading is an art, its only a craft.

Bruce, you have giant ants in the Los Angeles River bed because they're coming in from the outside. Try placing Antrol stakes around the outside perimeter of your house and the problem should clear up in a week or two. [;)]

Shoot, I had a rat the size of a Spectrum Consolidation in my workshop the other day. Fortunately, I found the hole where the vermin were getting in and used a tin can lid to seal the hole. [:D]

At least we don't live in the Arizona desert. Then we'd be both be seeing "The Giant Gila Monster" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052846/

Andre

Andre

[SpaceMouse]

Isn't there a tradition of having a Godzilla figure on the layout somewhere?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by steamage

Okay... I have giant ants in my Los Angeles River bed. Not because of John Allen's influence, but because I liked the old 1950s science fiction movie THEM.

Steamage,

That is simply boss... I still watch THEM to this day, even though the OL thinks I'm a bit weird for doing it... What a great idea.

Peace.

Coyote

[steamage]

Okay... I have giant ants in my Los Angeles River bed. Not because of John Allen's influence, but because I liked the old 1950s science fiction movie THEM. I model the prototype Southern Pacific the way I remember it in the early 1960s, but there are things I didn't include in my modeling of because of things I didn't like about the 60s.

I like looking at the different skill levels of modelers in magazines, or on DVD's, figuring that I might just learn something new, or some modeler may have a great idea. I don't think Model Railroading is an art, its only a craft.

[jjbmish]

Wow!! All of this and just because Spacemouse asked if you had anything on your layout as a tribute to John Allen. I hope nobody asks a question that's really serious. LOL Hope everyone had a good Christmas (or should I say Holidays so I don't offend anyone?) and they got everything they wanted.

John

:0)

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Hmmm can't train dinos to use an ashpit? How about a dino size litter box?

The Allen-esque answer would be a little guy leaving a trail of footprints behind him after he stepped in the, er- ashes.

GreatJust received a CC on an email to Keith Beard, who's posting recently rediscovered John Allen photos:

"KEITH, IF YOU EVER NEED A KIDNEY, JUST CALL ME."

If that's not a sign that JA was the Great Pooh-bah, what is?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith {w. slight spelling correction}
How about a heard of Triceratops on their way to Chicago to become Top Sauroloin!

Boy, they would certainly make mince-meat out of the sides of wooden stock cars.

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly
Was at Wally World yesterday after this thread started and found myself looking for dino figures. Gotta have one. I think it would look really neat next to my BLI Mike.

Be certain to get one that is in scale. Some of these plastic ones would make better Z-scale models. I suppose you could put juveniles to work, but then the child labor law people or animal activists might be all over the railroad officers.

[jeffers_mz]

Way to go, Spacemouse, you started a great big fight.

I hope you're pleased with yourself.

;-)

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

QUOTE: .... and next to the ash pit I'd have to put a . . . . . . . hmmmmmm. Maybe not . . . . . .

The maestro himself said the Dino never learned to use the ashpit. I mean, come on, you want to be prototypical, right????

Hmmm can't train dinos to use an ashpit? How about a dino size litter box?

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

It's interesting that those who seem most uncomfortable with the idea of realistic modelling are often less accomplished modellers...

Whoa, friend, back up on that one a little bit, will you? Remember, 'realism' is often a personal perception. You and I may be looking at the same bit of prototype railroading, but the chances are more than even that we'll be interpreting it differently. It has to do with our own personal backgrounds, philosophies and outlooks. You may be focused in on the amount of spikes in the crossties, I may be focused in on the color of the rails and how they contrast with the color of the ballast. We can look down the track, you might be fascinated by the gradient, I in turn am probably fascinated by the backdrop that the tracks are disappearing into. You may look at the small details while I in turn, Ilook at the larger picture. And if we choose to model that particular section of prototype track, our results might be completely different, but they're still LEGITIMATE because of our respective perceptions.
I would grant that my perception of model railroading is probably quite different from yours, but don't EVER call me less than accomplished because of that difference. It's MY perception, remember. Just like it's YOURS.
Just back off from generalities, okay? I've been modeling since 1955. Comments like yours just **** me off.
Tom

Hey Tom, it's realistic for me if I get two laps around and keep all the wheels on the track. Anything more is just gravy... [:D]
Jarrell
Going back under my rock now.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

[
I wonder is there is art in the way we discuss art. Some do it artlessly, others are most artful. It is the same in model railroading and in car racing. Ask Chip is there is art in his other passion, discharging sidearms (I purposefully used that description).

There probably is but I'm at loss to describe it. There is certainly a "zone" where you divorce the thought processes so that you body reacts as you have trained it to do. There is also a fair amount of "feel" to preparing of the firearms and ammo. But art, I dunno.

I got my art jollies out of dressing the part and writing about the sport.

EDIT: I guess I should have mentioned that I do Cowboy Action Shooting.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SPFan

The quality that defined John Allen's work and later Selio's for me is imagination. The closer to reality a model achieves the less imagination it takes to create it. Skill, yes, imagination, no. For the kid with his chin on the table watching his undersized Lionel coming down the three rail track its all about imagination. That for me, separates model railroading from modeling.

Pete

Very true. Thanks for that.

I wonder is there is art in the way we discuss art. Some do it artlessly, others are most artful. It is the same in model railroading and in car racing. Ask Chip is there is art in his other passion, discharging sidearms (I purposefully used that description).