Train show in Toronto

[dknelson]

My prior posting on this issue has grown to the extent that I can no longer follow the threads!

It begins to look a little iffy for the big train show that usually accompanies the NMRA National.
Sadly it also looks like the "all clear" for Toronto a few weeks ago was either premature or motivated by factors other than good science.
This is no joke folks. Nor, civic pride aside, given the stakes can it be called an over-reaction. The doctors I know, some of whom were experts on AIDS related issues 15+ years ago, are unanimous. Only a rigid and harshly enforced quarantine can stop SARS now. How this will affect Toronto and its citizens is anybody's guess but in the last analysis I suspect a model train convention is among the least of the worries.
Dave Nelson

[Sperandeo]

For more about this see "Product and Hobby News" on the MODEL RAILROADER home page (click on the magazine logo at left), and also watch that space later today (May 30) and Monday for expected further developments.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
MODEL RAILROADER Magazine

[cp1057]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, ENOUGH OVER-REACTION!

I just finished reading the posting on the trains.com site listing the number of exhibitors that have pulled out from the NMRA show in Toronto in July, as well as an important conference being cancelled.

PEOPLE, TORONTO IS A SAFE PLACE TO VISIT!!

I'm totally fed-up with this over-reaction! Toronto is home to over 2 million people, the vast majority of whom go about their daily business in perfect health and safety. I live about an hour from Toronto and wouldn't hesitate to visit this summer.

I detect a distinct whiff of xenophobia!

I daresay that visitors to some cities that have hosted in the past were more at risk of being mugged than a visitor to Toronto has of getting SARS.

Public health officials may have been a bit premature to consider the issue dealt with but I am confident they are doing everything possible to contain the disease and by the time July rolls around it will be a non-issue. More people die of influenza each year than SARS will ever claim.

In short, people are letting their irrational fear of the unknown stampede them into rash action.

Charles

[Anonymous]

Sorry charles, the risk of getting mugged and the risk of transmitting a disease to the Us and other countries are vasly different
Don

[Anonymous]

Charles is right. There are over 3 million people in the greater Toronto area, who are in no danger at all. Every day in the past few weeks, there have been thousands of these folks in the good ol' USA, on business or pleasure, just like there always is....hundreds of them have ALREADY coughed or sneezed on planes, in restaurants, in offices, right beside many of those who wi***hey had on a mask just to read this post.
Thousands of trucks still cross the border every day, dozens of which haul Toronto garbage into Michigan...but I guess there are certain "schools" of thought that believe the US border is some kind of barrier to germs. A bag of hammers might just be smarter than that.
Anyone thinking they can avoid anything by staying away from Toronto is naive beyond belief.
The quarantines currently in effect are all precautionary...those quarantined are not lepers.
Mike
BTW...there is a great deal larger risk now,to us all, from West Nile Virus. Guess what ? ...the mosquitos are unlikely to stop at your border checkpoints, AND...the mosquitos will not cancel any of their meetings or conventions.

[cp1057]

Hi folks, its Charles again.

You know, before we get too far off the topic of model trains and conventions, I just want to say:

a) Toronto is still a safe place to visit
b) Public health officials have placed people in quarantine as a precaution, not because they have the plague
c) The media tends to play up and blow things out of proportion

And d) it will be a real downer if the convention is cancelled due to fear and over-reaction rather than a rational examination of the facts.

Charles

[dknelson]

The number of perfectly healthy people in China is even larger than the number of perfectly healthy people in Toronto. Ditto for Hong Kong, Taiwan, VietNam, and so on. There is no place with a SARS "problem" that does not have a huge number of perfectly healthy people. That has nothing to do with the science of how to control an epidemic.

Dave Nelson

[rogerhensley]

Please do NOT confuse the National Train Show with the NMRA Convention. The convention is still very much on and I understand that they are working on additional items for the convention for those who would normally have gone to the NTS. You can find the link to the convention on the NMRA web site at: http://www.nmra.org

Roger

[dknelson]

What can we do but wish our Toronto friends the best of luck with their convention? The National Train Show is a comparatively recent addition to the mix and plenty of very successful NMRA Nationals had no train show.

Still and all -- the control of an epidemic calls for over-reaction since you cannot precisely react. I speak as one who knows -- our house was under quarantine when I was a kid due to my sister's scarlet feaver. I remember the city nurse NAILING huge red quarantine signs on our front and back door. It seemed like we were criminals or social outcasts and so we were. Then I caught the scarlet fever maybe because I was stuck inside with my sister all day and night. But you never hear of scarlet fever anymore. And nobody else in our neighborhood got it.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Well Dave, Not to sound bitter, but several years ago, I was on a camping trip, and crossed into Canada at Sarnia, Ont. I was subjected to a search of my vehicle after a Canadian customs officer spotted some firewood in the back of the truck. They stated that "wood" with bark on it might be harboring some kind of obscure insect that I don't recall what it was. Well, the traffic was so slow through the border that the "insect" in question could have certainly flown across the St. Clair river quicker than I did. Nonetheless, I was turned away. Now Canada is telling us that everything is OK, and "come on in"???? SCREW them!!! I'm not going to put MY life at risk because they want US dollars spent in their cities! Just say NO to Canada.

[Anonymous]

Excuse me, but I forgot to add, that today I could probably take an entire semi-trailer of wood with bark on it into Canada without so much as a glance from customs. Do we forget 9-11? do we forget the loss of American jobs? The loss of American lives? They have real tight restrictions on us, but who was asleep at the switch on 9-11??
The terrorists had started out where? Canada.

[BentnoseWillie]

One goes through US customs and immigration, not Canadian, to enter the USA from Canada. That would make both agencies "asleep", though I thought those individuals entered directly, not through Canada.

I don't hold it against anyone to stay clear till we have a handle on SARS (and I'm unconvinced that we have yet). I would, too. Now let's agree to disagree about regulations around the personal importation of wood and go back to trains.

[Anonymous]

Well, as a proud Canadian citizen, I can’t just take remarks about my home and native land lying down. I thank God that there are very few Americans as ignorant as the previous responder to this thread. First of all, I believe that the issue in question was the transportation of SARS from Toronto, I don’t believe that the Dutch elm disease, or bugs in your bark is at all relevent. In the same breath, the previous respondant mentioned that he would have no trouble bringing wood into the states, and then stated that it is Canada where all the terrorists come from, and the terrorist problem is Canada’s fault. Like the other responder, I would agree that U.S. patrolls its own borders, and thus the blame should not be put on Canada or the U.S. Canada cannot be called a terrorist haven because of its multiculturality, and though the terrorists of September 11 were in general of a certain race, terrorists come in all shapes and sizes... and most importantly colors. For example, timothy mcVeigh was an American citizen, and no less a terrorist. There is no need for this cross border squabbling, nor for personal remarks against Canada or the U.S. I would vouch for Toronto as a safe place, as less than 1 percent of people have SARS, and you have just as much chance of catching SARS in Toronto as catching Aids in Chicago, or the Bubonic Plague in Boston. Can we please stop this ignorance, and be drawn together by what we all have in common. Railroading.

[Anonymous]

Might I also add that the American government admitted that the terrorists of 9 11 started out in Afganistan, not in Canada

Also, after 9 11, Canadians were encouraged to support, and visit New York with their tourism dollars, and did. Can’t Americans help out their brothers and sisters in kind by coming to Toronto in this time of need.

[Anonymous]

Your comments were very logical until this one.
>

This comment rates right up there with the one you rightly criticized. First, it BETTER be less than 1% of the population with Sars--anywhere close to 1 in 100 would be a major epidemic with thousands of deaths likely.
Secondly your remark about the likelihood of catching SARS relative to Aids or plague is just plain silly. AIDS is transmitted through specific risky behaviors, and there has not been a plague epidemic in a very long time. THe evidence is clear that SARS can be highly contagious without physical contact. Your dismissal of the potential danger is sophomoric.
I for one had my plane ticket to Toronto and would have come to the show, even wearing a mask, if things did not get worse than they are now. But I would not expect Canadians or anyone else to come to the U.S. if they felt at risk, and you should not expect anything different.

[Anonymous]

The quote did not print, but the one I was referring to was this

I would vouch for Toronto as a safe place, as less than 1 percent of people have SARS, and you have just as much chance of catching SARS in Toronto as catching Aids in Chicago, or the Bubonic Plague in Boston.

[dknelson]

Scientists believe the SARS epidemic grew when one (healthy) doctor passed one sick woman in a hotel corridor. As a prior poster said, that is a far cry from how AIDS is spread.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Yes. I know that much less then 1% of the population has SARS. I was being extremely sarcastic, as my reference to the bubonic plague may have insinuated. No hard feelings.

[Anonymous]

Maybe less than that 1% today, but how about 10 years from now? It is still a problem that has no known cure. When they come up with a vaccine, I'll feel more at ease. I'm not wearing a mask yet, but if it still keeps spreading, that will become a "fashion" symbol.....
Todd C.

[Anonymous]

With respect to my earlier post [#5 in this thread], it appears that some of the hammers are falling out of the bag.
Mike

[Anonymous]

What abosolute drivel. Ever tried to cross into US as a Canadian, not just now, but for the last umpteen years. Just so you Know, the millions of people up here are wearing eskimo suits and Sars masks. Bring your skis too becuase the snow is great. I am getting a list of all those manufacturers who pulled out and I certainly won't be supporting them. Oh and did you know there is SARS in the US too. Guess you can't go out of your house now....enjoy...oh and west nile and killer bees which are in the US. What crap...

[Anonymous]

That story is simply not true. Where do you get this stuff? The people who are affected are health care workers who came into direct contact. There has not been ONE, NOT ONE, case of community transmission. By the way the Rolling Stones are now playing a concert in Toronto in the next few weeks. Certainly going to be tough for them to play with masks on.

[Anonymous]

I am curious. What has happened to monkeypox. The midwest US was full of this plague a few weeks back and miraculously it has disapeared. I believe that some MRR mail order items come from this area. What all is in the package that is shipped to Canada?

[Anonymous]

OKY,DOKEY, No problem... I'll send you a 5 pound box of firewood, and we'll see what gets across the border first, the cash, or the wood...
"NAFTA" was a big mistake, I'm ashamed to admit that I am a Democrat, but I'm certain that the Republicans were behind the whole thing.
When your beloved Canadian National owns all the rails in the U.S., perhaps then you'll be happy. Christ, these days I don't know whether to salute the "Stars & Stripes", or the "Maple Leaf". Yup, you guys are pretty good, we protected your country during the "cold war", and now all of our manufacturing industry is moving up your way. That's a really good way to thank us for all we have done for you...
I don't know what's worse anymore, Canada, or Mexico. You want us to buy your stuff, but we shouldn't try to sell our products to you Canadians. F.O.

[Anonymous]

Hi Bob....Mike here.....don't worry about the monkey pox, unless you're showing the main symptom...that symptom is an uncontrollable urge to peel a banana with your feet.
Regards from Meaford.

[BentnoseWillie]

QUOTE: When your beloved Canadian National owns all the
rails in the U.S., perhaps then you'll be happy. Christ, these days I don't know whether to salute the "Stars & Stripes", or the "Maple Leaf". Yup, you guys are pretty good, we protected your country during the "cold war", and now all of our manufacturing industry is moving up your way. That's a really good way to thank us for all we have done for you...

For your information, 55% of CN stock is held by US shareholders, the largest single shareholder being William H. Gates III. Maybe you've heard of him; he's the richest man on earth and a US citizen. The President of CN is E. Hunter Harrison, former president of Illinois Central and a US citizen.

I don't know where you get the notion that NAFTA is one-way against the US. We've been buying your consumer goods for nearly a hundred years!

Enough of this foolishness; let's get back to trains.

[Anonymous]

I agree, this is not a place for politics. Please forgive my "attitude", my local area has been devestated by the recent "Bush idea of "econonomic stimulation". Boy, we better get that idiot out of the white house this time. If not, I think that WW3 will be soon to come.
Almost ashamed to call myself an American.....
W.T.C.

[Anonymous]

Well, Toronto is now off the WHO's list of SARS affected cities which should indicate to everyone it's now safe to visit our city. Will the major manufacturers now attend the show? Our area's economy has been hard hit by the major drop in tourism. I hope the model railroad industry and model railroaders will support us by attending the show and convention

[Wdlgln005]

The Convention should begin soon
I wonder how many Toronto forum posters would have the time to get online & give us an idea of how many NMRA members came this year?[?]
Also make a report from any of the manufacturers that did show up & participate? [?]We could all show our support by buying their products! [:D][8D]
Have fun model railroading & be safe! [:)][8D]

[BRAKIE]

Well I was on my way till I was involved in a car wreck..So much for the much needed get away for 11 days..GRRRRR!