Are modellers be priced out the hobby?

[Anonymous]

the concept of cheaper prices drawing younger people into the hobby's not going to work.you HAVE to like trains and models to be drawn into this hobby.if bli's and kato's sold like athearn bb's, more guys with money would buy more stuff. todays" gotta have instant gratification" now feelings are why train modeling is less attractive, fewer trains and more railtrails don't help either. how many young can afford an rc car or airplane or boat?you priced rockets lately? how about an x-box and the games that go with it? hobbys are NO more expensive now than forty years ago when i was 12.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1

Ok so why is the market so much smaller??? I think because some people cannot afford things. You also have a lot of things competing for the leasure dollar. But like any other recreational type activity. If you do not grow the youth market you will not have any market in a few years. Eventually the market will pass on and then you have nothing. Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity? Unless you get some youth involved and at a price they can afford say good bye to the "World's Greatest Hobby". It may be hard to do but only selling high priced items and not making lower priced items is like a tick eating at it's dog host until it is dead.

RMax1

No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing.

You think things are expensive here? Price a DJH kit (e.g. http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3057 )from the UK. For the most part, they don't include wheels, motor or gearsets because there are 3 common gauges (16.5, 18 and 18.83 - also known as P4) used in the UK with OO scale (1:76) and the choice is left to the modeler. By the time you assemble all you need just to build the thing, you're talking upwards of $350 or more.

DJH also does a few HO scale models (sample: http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073 ) . These do include motor, gears and wheels. Notice the price? Wanna know what the dollar equivalent is at today's exchange rate? $460!!! And then you have to assemble and paint the thing.

DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen.

Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market.

News flash, people. Ivan Boesky was greedy. If you want to get filthy rich, you're going to have to take up a line of business that will actually provide the revenue to support the 50,000 sq ft mansion, the yacht and the personal 747. The model railroad biz won't do it.

As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month.

Things are better now.

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1
Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity?

Maybe not, but why would they have to? On-line retailers are taking reservations for the Atlas Trainman GP-38-2s at 55 bucks. Other decent standard Atlas locos on-line now are $65-80. Again, that's without shopping at all ... there are many better deals out there.

Just for perspective, inflation-adjusting those prices back to 1980:
Atals Trainman at $55 in 1980 would be $21.66
Standard Atlas at $65 in 1980 would be $25.59
And these are for much better-quality locos than 1980

By the way, a mail-order sale ad in the Dec 1980 MR shows an Atlas FA1 (no choice of roadnames) for $21.99.

On the other hand, an ad in the same 1980 issue for an early command control system (pre-DCC of course) from Hornby with an MSRP of $175 for the controller and one decoder. Inflation adjusted to today that would be $444.44. This system had considerably fewer features than today's entry-level DCC sytems that list for half that price or less.

Atlas Nickle-Silver flex in 1980? 77 cents a section in bulk. Inflation-adjusted, $1.96. Today on-line, without shopping around? $2.12

I'm not saying the hobby is cheap, just that we might keep things in perspective.

Jon

[RMax1]

Ok so why is the market so much smaller??? I think because some people cannot afford things. You also have a lot of things competing for the leasure dollar. But like any other recreational type activity. If you do not grow the youth market you will not have any market in a few years. Eventually the market will pass on and then you have nothing. Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity? Unless you get some youth involved and at a price they can afford say good bye to the "World's Greatest Hobby". It may be hard to do but only selling high priced items and not making lower priced items is like a tick eating at it's dog host until it is dead.

RMax1

[WickhamMan]

I think there is a basic misunderstanding of economics and free markets when someone suggests that vendors are purposefully ignoring the "low end" market to get higher profits on "high end" RTR items or models. This is saying that there are profits out there that nobody wants. It is nonesense.

If there was a profitable market for low end items within the hobby, somebody would be making that money by selling to those hobbyists. If every vendor is selling at the "high end" then that end of the market is, by definition, the most competitive. That means that there are marginal players at that point in the market who are only breaking even. That is not to say that all manufacturers are just breaking even but it does indicate that the market is not profitable to new entrants.

The opposite is also competitive at the margins. However, the market size is much smaller so there are less (or no) players willing to sell products at those prices because and there are no profits to be made.

[Anonymous]

I am just starting back in the hobby after some 23 years or so. (mid 70's to 82 or so when I was a kid) I dont remeber all the prices I paid for things back then with my very limited fund, but seems to me that cost of items are a mixed bag.
When adjusted for inflation: Track prices seems cheaper now, engines are more expensive but are of higher quality and certainly have options that were not available back in the 70's. (Cheaper engines are still available tho' ) Model prices seem consistent with more "high end" models available. Scratch building can lower this cost alot. I dont remember premade trees ever being cheap. Since I didn't have anything when coming back in to the hobby I expected to spend a few bucks to get started. The layout while be a father/son project that while last for years and I cant put a price on that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vbaglivio
But even then.....
45 dollars for one passenger car? I remember when i could get the same style in kit form, super detail it, paint it, and still save money!
...
That is a price increase that is justified. But lets look at the rollling stock. 25 dollars for rolling stock? 10 years ago i was able to buy the same thing in kit form, have fun building it, and pay only 7 bucks! And honestly, i think it looked better back then also. I have such a hard time finding kits today. I would pick up a branchline kit, but they are expensive.

Huh?
An online source (InternetTrains) has Branchline freight car kits for less than $10 to less than $14. Ten years ago, with inflation, they would be the equivalent of less than $8 to less than $11. And the branchline kits are much better than Blue Box kits in terms of detail, decoration, etc., IMHO.
Most fo the passenger car kits are shown at less than $34.

And I didn't shop, I just picked an on-line store at random. I think their shipping is about 8 bucks, but if you ordered more than a few cars, it wouldn't add much to each.

The hobby is not free, but all this nostalgia for the "good old days" when "freight cars were a nickel and engines two bits" is not completely accurate. Reminds me of my Dad who used to lecture me when i asked for more allowance by saying his family of four lived one whole winter on a five-dollar bill my grandfather found on the sidewalk. Yeah, yeah ... and tell me again how you walked uphill to school -- both ways.

Jon

[RMax1]

I've reserved a Proto 2000 UP E8 set with DCC and sound. It's the most expensive thing I have ever bought for my railroad. It will be a very rare case. Spending over $225 at first stunned me. I spent $149 for my Proto Amtrak E8 set and was stunned when it came out. I got to thinking that if I were to put a decoder and sound in the other unit it would run about the same price. When my Amtrak set came out both were powered. This time I think they are going to sneek a dummy in but with sound. Even still the single A unit was around $100 and the new one with DCC and Sound is around $180. Seems the pricing is still level and the difference is DCC decoder. There are a few price increases but $200 locos price kids out of the market. You can say XBox and games all you want but $200 is still a lot of money.

Rmax

[Anonymous]

I think any hobby that you get into is expensive. But as long as peaople are willing to pay the prices set the companies will continue to charge that amount. If peaople stopped buying the stuff the prices would go down. Its like gas or heating oil or any other thing that prices fluctuate. You can never get everyone together to stop the priceing increases. As long as there a buyer theres going to be a seller that can get any price they want.

[Anonymous]

As long as people keep buying the high priced stuff... the builders will keep making it. Personally, I don't have a layout right now so, I can take the time to kitbash or detail cheaper models and make them look good (at least that is my hope :D ). Since the locomotives will not be running I do not need to waste the money on converting to DCC yet either. Once I get a place for a layout I'll be in the same boat as everyone else and buying up as much R-T-R as I can while I build and detail the layout.

What I am trying to say is that we as modelers have many options still available to us. I have seen some guys take 40 dollar locomotives and make them look like the 200 dollar R-T-R engines, it just means you have to take the time to do it. The choice for modellers right now is simple... cheap and slow (like a GE locomotive) or fast and pricey (like an EMD). I say find you niche and be happy.

As for new comers to the hobby I feel that their are plenty of options out there for them. I consider myself a new comer but, being 27 I am thinking more of the kids. Bachmann and Life Like still make the low end sets and Bachmann even makes low end locos with DCC. I think I even saw a GP50 for 50 bucks that was DCC ready. Of course it looked like crap but, it's just like everything else in life, you have to give up something to gain something else.

All in all HO modelling is probably still one of the cheaper hobbies out there. Golf? Ok.. 500 for a low end set of clubs and a bag. 20 dollars for balls per month (at least for newbies), 30 to 40 dollars or more in green's fee and tee time reservations EVERY time you play (at 4 times a month with 2 rounds comes to 300 dollars), God knows what for gas to drive to the club, 100 bucks for shoes, driving range fees, pants, shirts, hats, and beer... that can add up very quickly. Meanwhile you can buy a 50 dollar locomotive, 5 passenger cars, 50 bucks in detail parts and paints and hae a whole month's worth of fun ahead of you.

[Leon Silverman]

Much as people complaint about the high price of this hobby, as long as the brass manufacturers can come out with models made in minute quantities and exorbitant prices ($2,000.00 + dollars for a fifty copy run), there will be probably little incentive for manufacturers to hold their prices down (clearance and going out of business sales, notwithstanding).

[Anonymous]

I agree with Cox 47 and many others. Couple all the above witht he fact that many items are made in China, it does seem to me that there is a degree of Greed with someone in the supply chain.

If a NEW or RETURNING hobbyist cannot afford to get into the hobby IT WILL DIE, that's simple economics.

I myself am a returning MRR and it is VERY difficult now I am disability retired and have the time but the money is proportionally far greater then when I was younger. I don't want to start a spamming result here but that is reality.

I'm sure those of you that are established or can afford what this hobby has become are Greatful - right? I have read a posting here today that refer to elitist posters - I sure hope we don't have any here, I'd rather hope those that can afford bigger etc are busy helping train others.

I'm stuck out here in BFE and have no other MRR fans to trade with etc. and the nearest club of hobby shop is well over 100 miles away. There was a local shop that couldn't make it 50 miles away I discovered it the day it was closing its doors).

So I as many will dream and acquire/trade etc best I can but it really isn't enough to do anything much.

FWIW

[trainfreek92]

how much do you think the LHS make when threy sell you a $$60 doller engine?? 20 30? but sometimes that engine just sits there for 7 months because it is not right on top if you think about what gos into it its fair plus the middleman my LHS buys from walthers and give a 10% percent discount for ordering from them so if they had the engine they might sell it to you for 60 but if you have to order it then it is maybe 50 so. as others have stated you can spend as little or as much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as you want Tim

[Anonymous]

I do have to admit that the hobby has changed drastically over the last 20 years or so. I am now 28. I started into it all when i was like 10. Granted, my whole fleet was composed of birthday presents and christmas presents. But when you look at the technology incorporated into todays product i can see the need for increased prices. That is for certain goods. part of what drew me into the hobby was knowing that i built what was running. I had loads of athearn rolling stock and engines. I loved to put it all together and say i made that! Now, kits, besides becomming tromendously difficult to find, are very much overpriced! Lets take Walthers rolling stock for example. Now not too many order directly from walthers direct, so i won't focus on SRP's! But even then.....
45 dollars for one passenger car? I remember when i could get the same style in kit form, super detail it, paint it, and still save money! Maybe the walthers example is a bad one. So lets look at athearn. The engines from the genesis line run wonderfully. Sure they are more expensive, but the quality has improved and the incerase in out of the box details is much better. That is a price increase that is justified. But lets look at the rollling stock. 25 dollars for rolling stock? 10 years ago i was able to buy the same thing in kit form, have fun building it, and pay only 7 bucks! And honestly, i think it looked better back then also. I have such a hard time finding kits today. I would pick up a branchline kit, but they are expensive. I used to be able to walk into a hobby store with 100 dollars and walk out with a whole crapload of goodies. I would have been able to get 5 cars, an engine, and a building kit or two. Now i am lucky if i can get an engine and one passenger car. Forget about the building.
Bottom line, the price increases have pushed me from the hobby. I still enjoy working with what i have, and i do enjoy new items rolling down the main line, but all i can say is that it is just not the same. I don't feel the same pride i felt a few years ago. Now, with the new stuff, all i can say is that i pulled it out of the box all by myself instead of being able to say i built that and added all the details myself! All of the kits that are available, (still severely hard to find) are way too overpriced to enjoy! ....And i am not talking about the old stock athearn kits that places like trainworld still have. I am talking about new release items!
I am not bashing r.t.r. equiptment, i am just bashing the abandonment of kit form equiptment. ......And the rediculous pricing.

[railroadyoshi]

There are lots of things I want for my rr. I want a DCC w/sound F2A and a Digitrax Super Empire Builder and lots of rolling stock because it is slim in comparison to my locos. But , I need to buy track for my changing layout, details and decoder for my RDC, etc. Its a matter of prioritization, I buy what my rr needs, wait if I don't have enough to buy something yet, and hold off on the extras before work is complete on others. I recognize I can't have everything.

[Anonymous]

i'm brand new to the hobby-prices are high-but then i have no idea what to compare to.its hard-i'm really attracted to buying a set,due to the price.i've been warned about it by some.oh well,i guess if it was cheap it wouldn't be as exciting to get that new train....
by the way-hey everyone!
adam hoyt

[Anonymous]

The threshold of "gotta haves" has risen to price many out of the hobby. For the new comer entry price of DCC and a loco and some cars and track to run them on is out of sight. With every "newbie" needing DCC because of the "mantra" here and elsewhere raises the bar to enter the hobby into the $300 plus area. The question then is how many hours, days, weeks, months does it take to accumulate those funds, or pay off the bill to "own" them.
Those on a fixed income or "kids" are at a disadvantage immediately.
As long as the industry can make and sell RTR at a profit, and we don't support the lower cost kits to remain a profitable market, the more we will be priced out of the hobby. Luckily the changes in technology may make last years electronics, locomotives, rolling stock, structures and other materials more attractively priced for those who don't need the latest bell and whistle to keep up with the Jones.
[2c]
Will

[ShaunCN]

well that fact is, no new or younger modelrs will be able to get into the hobby if prices keep going up.

[Anonymous]

Prices on everything have gone up.why should a hobby be cheaper? Hobbyist's or should I say compulsive buyers within the hobby may price themselves out of the hobby,but way backin the 70's,my wages were under $100 a week and prices back then seemed high.Brass and craftsman building kits ran more back then too.Maybe the gotta have it types feel the pinch more, but we always buy what we can afford,whether it's rtr or not. Some makers,Kadee and Atlas,don't offer kits in their freight car line,and if someone made a building that I liked ,rtr, I'd buy it. I like kitbashing but someday someone might have just what I need, so to each his own, are prices higher,yes, but this hobby's never been cheap.

[wctransfer]

Well, lemme put my 2 cents in. Im 13, and the only time i can buy a nice engine ( Kato, Proto, RTR Athearns) is when i mow the lawn about 9 or 10 times. I have a big lawn. So i maybe , unless my gram gives me money, buy one locomotive a summer. Christmas is different. My mom buys the train stuff, my uncle Den ( Dispatcher for the CP ) gives me a hobby store gift card, and the other uncles give me money. Its kinda hard for me to get what i want with the money, but i feel that that one kato i just need to have is worth it, if it wasnt than i wouldnt buy it. I model the SOO Line, Wisconsin Central, and the CNW, so the WC units are always my priority to buy. Why, because they dont have that many WC models out there. The prices are getting steep, but i dont feel like i need to buy every single nice engine out there. I have a nice fleet of the WC units, i want more but ill get one by one. I want more SOO and CNW stuff, so those come after the WC. It all depends on what you think about one engine. Many other there want a HUGE fleet. Sure i would too but think about what you REALLY want, instead of breaking the bank, buy one every once in a while. i dont know if this long post made that much sense but here. Buy the stuff you want yes, but remember you dont need a million of them to have a fantastic layout. I buy one at a time, and am happy, i dont feel like i need a pair of every engine to feel good about the investment.

alec

[oleirish]

Throught I would put my 2cents worth here!I'am retired and on fixed income,Some things are out of my reach like Sound ! I would like to have an sound locomotive,but think the price is to high on them at the present.I'am sure they will come down some in the future.I have an DCC systeam but the decoders are still to high for 20 locomotives,maybe they will come down some allso,Even if I were still working I would not buy an engine for $300 t0 400 dollors ,way to much.Just in the past few years the price has doubbled on things, Building kits are as high as $200 dollors in some cases,Walthers conerstone kits are out rageious,an compleate SAW MILL ( three parts)IS RIGHT AT $100.00 after you buy all the parts.Yes the price is gone way up,and the companies know this,but as long as people pay the high price things will not change but in some cases go higher.

JIM

[cnw4001]

I have two thoughts on this.

First things today are more expensive than in the past but then adjusted for inflation some of the pricing is not so far out of line. That doesn't make it any less costly in today's dollars but simply it is a case of stuff costing a lot. Someone else pointed out that it is not in sellers interest to price their product to a point where nobody buys those products.

I hear this complaint in other hobbies and that brings my second point. Hobby spending is discretionary. You spend what you can afford and have to leave the rest for someone else. Would I like to purchase top of the line evrything? Yes, but I buy what I can afford and enjoy that.

[CNJ831]

There are several points consistantly being missed in this and most other discussions of this sort.

The statement is repeatedly made that, although many more high-end items are being offered currently and low-end ones are seen to an ever lesser degree, you can get along in the hobby perfectly well by scratchbuilding or carefully buying of items on eBay or at special discounts. What is over looked here, especially by those realtively new to the hobby, is that the past ten years is the very first time in the hobby's entire history that this situation has become a mainstream necessity. At the same time, non-kits, basic low-end items, and scratchbuilding, is slowly disappearing.

Where the manufacturers are concerned, this is really not from lack of customers but because inexpensive items are generally not bought in a frenzy, like that seen associated with most high-end items. If an item takes many months, instead of days or weeks, to sell out the manufacturers will either tend to avoid it altogether or do minimal runs years appart. The entire manufacturing structure within our hobby has changed in recent years. The manufacturers have learned that they can quickly sell out of a very much reduced line of high priced items, directed at folks with deep pockets and turning a respectible, quick profit. Unlike during all the decades that have gone before, most of these makers have little concern for the hobby's long term future as long as they can sell a limited number of products at a good profit. Not being owned or run by hobby enthusiasts, as they were in the past, most of their corporate boards would be just as happy to sell electric shavers as model trains. This approach, more than anything else today, is what is presently stifling the hobby.

Add to the above the factor that the relatively small number of individuals entering the hobby today tend to have much less time and fewer modeling skills, drawing them to high-end, RTR, items - just the sort of folks most major manufacturers are aiming at - and you will begin to realize why this hobby's longterm future is very much in question because of the current situation.

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

I use to rant about the high costs of the hobby till I realize I was being hypocritical about it [:0][B)].[:(][8] How? Simply put I realized that I am buying at the best discount I can find and still buying the locomotives and cars in the road names I want without paying the full robber baron MSRP! So,I also realized I beat the manufacturers at their own game by buying at discount from on line.So,it is my thoughts that price savvy modelers can still buy the engines they want without paying full MSRP and still stay within their limited hobby budget.[:D]
.

[IRONROOSTER]

I think there are two forces at work here. One I think is that for many people their incomes are being stretched by increased health care costs (insurance and/or out of pocket), increased housing costs (even if you own your home, increased value means increased taxes and insurance), etc. In the end it's less money for the hobby.

The other force at work is more subtle. Many higher cost items have become part of the market place. While many of these are RTR, there are some high priced kits in HO. This has the effect of discouraging some people who can't afford them from being in the hobby. Athearn. MDC, and other low cost lines are no longer good enough in comparison.

One way lower costs is to return to scratchbuilding. Develop skills in making parts and models from raw materials. Go to a train show and buy some really old copies of MR that have articles on scratchbuilding.

Enjoy
Paul

[edkowal]

This isn't the first time this idea has been broached on this forum. Nor will it be the last time.

But I do seem to remember that the folks that are lamenting that "...prices are too high...", or that "...high prices are driving the modelers out of the hobby..." are the same individuals who a week or two before posted that "...I just sniped x items on e-Bay, boy did I get a bargain..." and "...my basement has so many unbuilt kits I could open a hobby store..." and "...oh yeah, me too, I own 62 locomotives, but I've got a 10 foot by 15 foot layout..."

Maybe these two phenomena are related?

-Ed

[rolleiman]

Depends on what you want.. I think some things are getting a little pricey, yes.. but you can still spend as little as you wish.. It just depends on whether or not you are a Modeler or someone who just likes to operate trains.

The difference is (before I get into another e-fight), the modeler has no problem scratch building or heavily modifying an existing model to suit the needs or interests.. He doesn't wait and hope that walthers, atlas, kato, athearn, fill in the rest of them here, to come out with a specific model and frankly doesn't care if they Ever do. This person may more appropriately be called a model builder. From what I've seen on this forum, this person is becoming a rare breed but they are still out there.

The one who just likes to operate trains isn't always interested in building models.. In some cases, the only Models that exist are the trains as well as the modeling of operations. He is perfectly happy to pay $30 for an RTR hopper and plop it on the layout as is. Simply because he isn't interested in Building the model and let's be honest.. The one doing that, with respect to that RTR hopper, hasn't Modeled Anything. He simply made a purchase. This person also sometimes thinks his Time is worth money even though if he weren't model railroading, he wouldn't be earning any $$ with the time.

I know there are lots of people whose interests cover both arenas. I think the better question to ask is "Are you pricing Yourself out of the hobby?" Remember, we Don't have to buy the stuff. It simply comes down to What do you want and what are you willing to pay for it??

my [2c]

Jeff

[Anonymous]

You Can always Boy cot lol...... im only kidding!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jecorbett
Add Atlas to the list of companies selling prebuilt structures.

Thank you. I forgot about them. I usually think of Atlas being a track and loco company. I forgot about their building line.

James

[Anonymous]

After being out of the hobby for almost 15 years, I am seeing alot less local hobby shops, and even fewer shops offering a discount. I know what the cost of the item is, I used to work at a Hobby store. Most suppliers supply them at 40% off list, plus offer a discount if the bill is paid before a certian date,( ie: 2%/10 days, net/30). I have always been in the beleif that making a small margin on large number of items is better than making a higher margin on fewer items. And as a buyer, the more product they move the better thier discount. The store owners need to get back into growing the hobby, offering a product at a discount, because when the list price getts to high for the new people getting into the hobby, they will not have a business to run.
The hobby is getting more ready to run, because more people have less time for "modeling" the trains, and want more time to run trains. I do not agree with this, and look for the bargins at the shows, and on ebay. Good hunting