QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon It's not the manufacturers who are to blame for whatever perceived wrongs are going on.
QUOTE: Mantua finally killed itself because it tried to make "collectors items" out of items where the basic tooling was in excess of 50 years old and bore (at best) only a vague resemblance to prototype. That's got to be one of the stupidest blunders in this hobby.
QUOTE: Blaming the manufacturers may make you feel better, but you're shooting at the wrong target with an obsolete weapon while wearing blinders in a dense fog. Andre
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon As for those who have quit buying current production, that's their privilege, but they need some lessons in elementary manufacturing economics and a good overview of just how small the model railroad market is compared to the market for cell phones, computers, cars, etc. Andre, it will be the manufacturers who need the lessons in economics in just a few years when they see their customer base dwindle to almost nil because the average hobbyists will be unable to afford their products. It happened with brass, falling from about 35% of the market share in the 1960's to probably less than 3% today (and resulting in the some brass importers transfering much of their energy into high-end plastic models to survive). You can most definitely price yourself right out of a market and that's just what will happen as more and more of the Boomers retire and drop out of the hobby because of high prices. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon As for those who have quit buying current production, that's their privilege, but they need some lessons in elementary manufacturing economics and a good overview of just how small the model railroad market is compared to the market for cell phones, computers, cars, etc.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
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QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal With all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth about modellers being priced out of the hobby, I think it might be relevant to ask the following: How many here in this discussion thread actually know of someone who has been priced OUT of the hobby? And by that I mean just that, someone who gave up and no longer participates in any way, as a result of prices being too high. I am assuming that everyone that has posted a response here is still an active model railroader. Yes, as an older hobbyist I can point to several colleagues of my generation who have totally withdrawn from the purchasing aspect of the hobby where new motive power and rolling stock are concerned...simply because of price considerations. I know that is not quite the same as leaving the hobby altogether but in an economic sense, they certainly have. I would not consider any of them "poor", yet they all express that over their long stints in the hobby they have never seen prices increase the way they have over the past decade and can not afford any new items. These guys are making do with their older Athearn or similar engines and cars and have no plans to make further purchases in the future. Likewise, I've been in the LHS twice now when individuals have come in asking about starting in the hobby and wanting to know the price of the materials necessary to construct a simple 4x8 project layout the like ones appearing in MR. After the store owner pointed out the need to purchase items of at least modest quality so that the newcomer won't be disappointed and gives a price, they left the store without comment! CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by edkowal With all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth about modellers being priced out of the hobby, I think it might be relevant to ask the following: How many here in this discussion thread actually know of someone who has been priced OUT of the hobby? And by that I mean just that, someone who gave up and no longer participates in any way, as a result of prices being too high. I am assuming that everyone that has posted a response here is still an active model railroader.
QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Ever seen a $500+ R/C plane take off on its maiden flight, get airborne, roll over and auger straight into the pavement completely disintegrating in a cloud of powered balsa wood? You'll never say this hobby is to expensive after looking at other hobbies. Nope.. But I've seen a $500+ RC boat catch something in the prop and pull itself to the murky bottom of the lake... I really felt bad for the owner.. I'll bet that there's someone here who forgot to put his liftout bridge back in and ran his $500 brass loco off of the table and on to the floor.. It wasn't me though, Mine was a $30 Athearn GP35. It happens in all hobbies. Jeff
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Ever seen a $500+ R/C plane take off on its maiden flight, get airborne, roll over and auger straight into the pavement completely disintegrating in a cloud of powered balsa wood? You'll never say this hobby is to expensive after looking at other hobbies.
Have fun with your trains
QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue I don't think modelers are being priced out of the hobby. But they are definatly being "Ready to Runed" out of the hobby. Current Walthers Catalong. Almost Every Locomotive, half the freight cars and 1/3 the building kits were Simply open the box and set on the layout. Next thing you know pre made Model Rairlaod Modules where all you have to do is bolt them together will be sold will become main stream. By then we will have to stop calling it model rairlaoding and start calling it miniature railroading because no one will be left who actually knows how to build a model. James.
Five out of four people have trouble with fractions. -AnonymousThree may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. -Benjamin Franklin "You don't have to be Jeeves to love butlers, but it helps." (Followers of Levi's Real Jewish Rye will get this one) -Ed K "A potted watch never boils." -Ed Kowal If it's not fun, why do it ? -Ben & Jerry
QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern About a zillion years ago as a teenage model railroaders, I made do with what I could afford, which wasn't very much. My parents didn't have much money, so I had to get what I wanted on my own. Weekly allowance, birthday money, and I had a newspaper route. I made many of my structures from cardboard and balsa wood, not being able to afford kits of the day. I'd haunt local department stores for bargains, broken models that I would repair and use. I started with an 027 layout with used Louis Marx equipment that I traded from a friend. Later on I sold off my 027 stuff and switched to HO scale, again all on a budget. My layout table was an old kitchen table onto which I'd added a piece of plywood. So I was able to accomplish a decent amount without a great outlay of money. Just because many of the new models are coming out with DCC and sound, there's nothing that says you need to have the latest and more expensive equipment. Used models are a great way to get started and to have a decent hobby. Bob Boudreau
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831 QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing. DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen. Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market. As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month. Things are better now. Andre - you need to study your model railroading history a little more closely! First off, those expensive Varney Super Pacifics, Mantua Craftsmen Series, Iken locomotives and their ilk, were exactly what keep the hobby from growing back in the 1930's and 40's. Once inexpensive (plastic, diecast and reliable) equipment became available in the early 1950's, model railroading exploded! From the 1960's until the 1980's the hobby was cheap and prices rose only very slowly for fully 25-30 years. It was not until the 1990's that we saw typical prices of better quality model railroad equipment start to take off. Over the past decade this has grown to the level of being outrageous. Incidentally, I remember the DJH models very well and they failed in the U.S.A. because, while they were very complex, difficult, kits whose prices approached low end brass! They never had any chance for success here. The hobby today is composed of about 1/2 to 2/3 guys who remember the prices of the 70's, 80's and early 1990's and are stunned seeing where the hobby is going. I find it interesting that some here love to invoke CPI increases to justify current prices, but don't appreciate that they really can't be applied to hobby items bought with discretionary funds. The CPI certainly never guided the market pricing in the past. Likewise, some folks seem to see what would be normally be viewed as product evolution (better detail, controls, etc.) as some amazing development fully justify dramatic price increases. Did TV's skyrocket in price over the past 50 years? They evolved enormously. Did washing machines or computers? Everyone needs to pause a moment and actually look around to see how prices in other hobbies have evolved. You'll find few examples of runaway pricing, except in those hobbies that are currently shrinking dramatically. CNJ831
QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon No they're not. Not any more than they were buying $30 locomotive kits from Mantua in the late 50's (roughly $200+ in today's dollars). Fer cryin' out loud, get some perspective. The model railroad hobby has NEVER been cheap and it never will be because it's a niche hobby (and a micro sized business) and does not lend itself to economies of scale when it comes to manufacturing. DJH made some US prototype locos (USRA light 2-8-2 and 4-6-2, NYC J1e 4-6-4 and a Santa Fe 2-8-2) in the late 80's and finally gave up on them because they weren't selling. It's not that they weren't good kits, it's that apparently everyone wanted RTR plastic engines with brass quality at Wal-Mart prices. It ain't gonna happen. Why is it that so many people people seem to want to have a fleet of locos and rolling stock rivalling the UP and they want it NOW. And all that stuff better be cheap, too, because if it isn't, there's going to be another whine at trains.com about greedy manufacturers and suppliers pricing everyone out of the market. As I've stated before, a Varney Super Pacific sold for $57.50 in 1950, the same year my dad was making $175.00/month. Things are better now.
QUOTE: Originally posted by mitrainman trying to start a layout in garage to young(14) to get a job, to old for finacial support from family dont want to blow life savings on benchwork no transportation to swap meets or places to buy used items. Ask for 2x4s for Xmas? To scratch build you first need to buy paint, tools, glue and other equipment waiting to be able to get a job Daniel
QUOTE: Originally posted by alco_fan QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1 Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity? Maybe not, but why would they have to? On-line retailers are taking reservations for the Atlas Trainman GP-38-2s at 55 bucks. Other decent standard Atlas locos on-line now are $65-80. Again, that's without shopping at all ... there are many better deals out there. Just for perspective, inflation-adjusting those prices back to 1980: Atals Trainman at $55 in 1980 would be $21.66
QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1 Are kids buying $250 locos in any kind of quantity?
QUOTE: Originally posted by BXCARMIKE the concept of cheaper prices drawing younger people into the hobby's not going to work.you HAVE to like trains and models to be drawn into this hobby.if bli's and kato's sold like athearn bb's, more guys with money would buy more stuff. todays" gotta have instant gratification" now feelings are why train modeling is less attractive, fewer trains and more railtrails don't help either. how many young can afford an rc car or airplane or boat?you priced rockets lately? how about an x-box and the games that go with it? hobbys are NO more expensive now than forty years ago when i was 12.