Re: Oh Come On Now!

[Fergmiester]

Not to start a flame war
Not to shoot anyone down
Not to kill the Christmas spirit

But I think this post is worth looking at in a positive and constructive manner, especially as the hobby is at a cross road.

As a kid I had the standard 4 x 8 oval with one siding. It got set up for several weeks and then taken apart and shoved in a box for several months. It was a repetitive process but hey as a kid I had no computer/video games to detract me from the hobby.

My kids have no interest in the hobby, Why? "cause it just goes around in circles Dad". Of course that was before I got away from the 4 x 8 oval stereotype.

If we are to captivate the next generation of MR'rs then we will have to capture their imaginations and give them something of interest. A lot can be done on a
4 x 8 so size isn't the issue. Just look at Mr. Westcott's 101 Trackplans for some inspiration.

Today's generation needs non stop action and the 4 x 8 Oval won't do it.

Sorry if I've stepped on toes but I have heard it said too many times.

"this is boring"

Fergie

[joeyegarner]

I sometimes run my trains for hours and hours.......... there is only so much you can do on a Model RR alone. I use my time while they are running to work on my RR projects, couplers painting changing wheels or what ever I have to do.

This thing about the 4X8; it's a good place to start for the novice but I like to think I have graduated to bigger things. I now have 9X9 around the room on shelfs about 20" wide, it's all in the upstairs of my lawnmower/tool shed. My next one is layed on for a spare room in my house, It is however looking like I will need to build the spare room first, since my wife and I have aquired a new tennant(he got the new train room), my 2 and a half year old nephew. He likes Uncle Joeys trains so maybe I can get him involved some day, he is already at the throttel[:0] Likes to haul his cars around on the flats and gons. He only knows one speed[}:)]!!!!!! You guys can figure that one out

[AntonioFP45]

A lot of us started with the traditional 4' x 8' oval.

While I've graduated and am looking to build an "Along-the-wall-layout" a 4x8 oval can still be fun if designed properly. I came out of the "toy train" phase and got into model railroading by running trains as a teen with a friend who had a 4 x 8 that included a two track mainline, a small yeard, and two industrial customers. We spent many a Sunday afternoon at his parents house running freight and passenger trains, mostly Athearn and Atlas equipment. There were even functioning block signals from "Triggor". I used to get a real kick out of seeing the signals turn red after a train entered the block and then back to greeen once the block was clear. Simple, yet so enjoyable..

By the way, this layout was a modified version of The Great Eastern Trunk; a layout that was in the Atlas book "Six HO Model Railroads You Can build".

IMHO, if space permits a 2 or 3 foot wide "along-the-wall-around-the-room-layout" can give a mainline a lot more length, but the old 4 x 8 is hardly obsolete.

Roger that.[;)][8D][:D]

[SpaceMouse]

My 8 yr-old son certainly got bored with my 4 x 8 roundy rounder, and I have 3 loops and 6 sidings. I survive on it, because while I'm running I'm planning the next project.

[easyaces]

I guess for the novices starting out an interesting 4x8 layout can be built, nothing wrong with that! Good type of layout one could hone thier skills at. Never to good to be too ambitious first off and get in over your head.

[ICRR1964]

There are allot of 4 by 8 setups out there, nice looking and fun to run. Sure the roubdy round does get boring, but putting in afew more siding and spurs always helped. My first layout was a 4 by 8. The good old standard rollout grass mat, and snap together buildings, just put anywhere. I remember the first train I got, it was the same year that you could by a box and hook up to your TV and play pong! Does anyone remember that game, it was way before Atari came out.

Keeping the younger people involved is hard to do at times, but there are quite a few out there that I do know of.

[Anonymous]

You can have a 30ft x 50ft layout and still 97.9% of todays kids will be bored with it. This is why the NMRA and MR and have their worlds greatest hobby campain. Look at the battles over getting X-Box this year. Gaming has a 24/7 tv channel now, the games are fast paced and in your face non-stop action. Most kids that I have operating on my layout and see what scale speed switching is all about last about 30 mins before their eyes glass over with boredom. Lets face it this is a aging hobby. Talk to people who own hobby shops has to the age of most of their model railroaders.

[red p]

Guys you are looking at this all wrong. its true that the 4x8 rounder does nothing for the majority of people here but it will attract new people into the hobby. Not only that but will bring younger kids in as well.

have we forgotten those "promote the hobby" or "getting young kids started"
threads.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Chip, I understand your frustration with this article, and I share it.

It is beautiful in terms of structures and scenery, but has little to do with trains as is evidenced by the track plan. In my 30 years of reading MR, I don't think I have ever seen anything as simplistic as this published.

I don't have a problem with the concept of the project layout, many excellent ones have been done over the years. However, this one is severely lacking in RAILROAD interest.

Model railroading is a progerssion with many stages and many facets. I have been in it for 40 years, and have become somewhat jaded, but thinking back to my early days when I knew and had seen little, I would still not have been moved by this. This isn't "Dream Plan Build", this is just "Build Yawn".

My opinion on this is unimportant. If the target audience for this series is newcommers like Chip, and HE finds fault, it's a problem.

[trainfreek92]

my layout is a 4x8 sheet of plywood with a 36x80 door extension on the end. now it is basiccaly a oval but there are many mainlines of of that. it has 2 yards is going to have a passenger station and other customers (coal mine gas spur etc) now sure some kids think model railroading is gay but not me i LOVE trains!!!! but the worlds greatest hobby campaign is cool and right.

[IRONROOSTER]

If you want to get the kids involved in a 4x8 layout (or any other size), you have to let them build it. For many of us, a big part of the hobby is building the cars, the buildings, laying the track, etc. If you do all the work, the kids won't see it as their layout because it isn't.

When I was young I built a model of the USS Arizona. Even though I'm sure it wasn't well done, I loved it because I built it. Model Railroading is the same, let the kids build it. Sure they'll make mistakes and some of it won't be very good, but it'll be theirs.

When I got into mr in my mid twenties I started with a 4x8. It was from the back of John Arstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" - a twice around with two passing sidings and a small 3 track yard (I never got to the turntable or the spurs). I had a ball with it, because I built the benchwork, laid the the roadbed and track, built, the cars, wired it, etc. While I know there are those who don't care for it, for me an important part of the hobby is the building. And I think that's true for the kids.

Enjoy
Paul

[steveblackledge]

I showed it to my 6yr old son and he thinks it's great, he says he could drive all his cars on it, there are road junctions and bridges to drive under,
if he thinks it's cool it's cool

[selector]

As several of you have alluded, it must first be an attention getter, and thereafter a means of proving to one's self that you can complete a fully scenicked layout. What better way than with either the 4X8 or a ripped sheet laid end-to-end for operations? Also, for the first magazine viewer, a 4X8 can fit into one photo to encapsulate the entire idea...a big plus in getting people to realize that it is all attainable. I wonder how many newbies can't decide if they are seeing a prototype picture of the model in some scenes where the entire layout and backdrop can't be seen. I have been fooled, but the effect is to leave the potential modeler doubting that they could ever measure up and be welcome, or even acknowledged, in the fraternity (I use that term advisedly). Show them grinning dad and child around a small well-done layout, and you have a potential recruit.

Baby steps, then the grown-up stuff.

[railroadyoshi]

I still have a 4x8, but your post makes complete sense. The trend not only for us modelers but for viewers alike is that operation is key. Watching trains go around in circles is repetitive, operations isn't. The good news is that massive amounts of operation can be done on the basic 4x8.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadyoshi

I still have a 4x8, but your post makes complete sense. The trend not only for us modelers but for viewers alike is that operation is key. Watching trains go around in circles is repetitive, operations isn't. The good news is that massive amounts of operation can be done on the basic 4x8.

Take a look at the one in the article and say that again.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadyoshi

I still have a 4x8, but your post makes complete sense. The trend not only for us modelers but for viewers alike is that operation is key. Watching trains go around in circles is repetitive, operations isn't. The good news is that massive amounts of operation can be done on the basic 4x8.

Take a look at the one in the article and say that again.

Chip's got a point. The "Red Wing" Division of the Soo, a 4x8 layout that appeared in MR several years ago was much more oriented toward operation. The layout in the Jan '06 MR is little more than a glorified Christmas tree oval with nice structures and scenery.

Andre

[jacon12]

I thought it was rather simplistic myself, but after thinking about it for a while, it makes sense for the newest of the new modelers. It's not intimidating, maybe too simple for those of us that are accustomed to seeing much more complex layouts, but I agree with Selector, you bait the hook and then reel them in. But, the bait has got to look easy to get.
Who knows, the next series may be on how to easily expand this simple layout.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

It is a basic how to article written around a "Layout" that is designed to be an advertising display for the company owned by the author. As he states in the article it is supposed to run without attention while he talks to potential customers. The track design on the top is not going to affect the construction basics that I think this series of articles is meant to cover.

Hopefully there will be optional rack plans offered at the end of he series.

[dwRavenstar]

You sit in the Lazy Boy all through the winter, looking at the ocean scene on that long ago forgotten to be turned calendar sheet, dreaming of the vacation you're saving for next summer. Kids in the car, tolls all paid, stuff cached in the room and you're cooling your toes in the sea. Back to the room, shower before dinner and you're brushing little grains of sand from your legs and feet, brushing it out of your hair and the wonderful beach you had been dreaming of for seven months has become a nuisance, a problem, a complete PITA because the individual grains of sand, the basics of that beach are all over the room. You've been hanging on the beach, having the time of your life and here's all this freakin' sand getting into every corner of your sanctuary, ruining your mood, wasting yout time and creating a general mess.

The basics. Bricks for the wall, beads of a necklace, blades of grass in a park and the method used to create a strong foundation for your model railroad empire. The basics, the simple steps, skillfully repeated until they form a larger picture. A journey of a thousand miles...... you get the idea.

Admittedly at first glance the article under consideration appears to be simplified, a beginner's enticement to "The Greatest Hobby In The World". Closer inspection reveals quality instructions for building proper, enviable benchwork that has rollers, shelves and well finished facia as a starting point and not as an after thought.

The article demonstrates Dave Methlie's writing ability, a talent he will certainly need if he's to explain the many factets of railroad modelling that his layout entails in only four segments. Where some may scoff, seeing a simple oval with a siding and enough room to set out a single boxcar (until the future connecting modules are constructed) at a time I see much more.

Looks like the layout has well weathered and ballasted track, highways with center lines, grade crossings, rolling hills and varied scenery effects. How many different fence styles, stone walls, retaining walls and tunnel portals are offered? There's a stream, a pond and a river flowing away from a motorized waterwheel. That's water effectively modelled with animation thrown in for good measure.

The structures are weathered at different stages. This town has been growing over the years and seems like it will grow quickly if those Amish carpenters have any say in the matter. Seventeen or better figures in one eye-catching scene and not a one of them is holding a musical instrument. Friends and neighbors, that spells ACTION!

How many of us have labored for months, drawing and redrawing track plans, deciding on era, locale, benchwork, businesses, terrain, color schemes, lighting and the like, only to build something way different once we actually got started? Previously gained experience allows us to see the simplicity of the pike in the article and to recognize how it could be expanded or complicated into a better layout. A beginner will learn the basics and long before setting the first screw into the first two pieces of benchwork he/she will no doubt have ideas that will make the offered layout look like a simplified 4X8. The largest layout in the world is still nothing more than straight rails connected with curved rails and split out with right and left turnouts. The basics repeated. Grains of sand, collected not in a tiny pile on the kitchen floor but massively organized into that beach we're going to visit next summer when it's too nice out to spend time down basement, painting a black belt on a not quite an inch tall factory manager.

Never shun nor discount the basics. With the exception of numerical values and punctuation none of the posts or replies in this or any other forum contains any more than the twenty-six letters of the alphabet.

I, for one, am looking forward to the next three installments of this article. Congrats, thanks and good luck to Dave Methlie.

'Nuff said

Ravenstar

[Fergmiester]

Ravenstar: Well said and yes the scenery and art work on the layout is without question is excellent. And yes it makes an excellent display peice as it's a real charmer.

And yes I'm sitting in my arm chair eating my humble pie...


I cou'ld say more but as you've stated

"Nuff said"

Fergie

[GRAMRR]

I started with the basic O-27 oval and passing siding on casters under the bed many long years ago. Moving along many years later, out came the O-27 again, on a 4x8 sheet at table higth - again the old oval but with a couple of yard sidings and an internal figure 8 for alternate routes. Also added some toggle switched blocks and a second transformer for allowing control over 2 engines at once. My three daughters, in the 5 to 8 year old range at the time spent many hours at roundy-round train running and at solving switching problems provided by Dad (get car A into siding B when it's on the wrong end of the engine, etc.)
Now, many years later, my wife got into the porcelean Xmas village thing and guess what? Last Christmas, we ended up with a 4x8 table, 48" high with 21+ illuminated structures and a 50 year old O-27 train going round and round in one end of our living room. And the grandson's eyes are glazed-over the whole time he is here. Today, we'll start putting it together again - more structures, maybe some working signals, etc.

So at may different times in my life, the old stand-by 4x8 has brought some measure of joy and stimulated the imagination of adults and children alike. Will all become model railroaders at some point in time? Maybe not. But, O-27, HO, N, no matter how simple, it does it's job well.

Chuck

[BRAKIE]

The 4x8 foot layout has serve and still serves the hobby well from the newest greenhorn to the oldest veteran.

Sadly those that have nice king size basements and arm chair "dream layout planners" seems to be the ones that thumb their noses at those that have 4x8 layouts.Well,think of this a 4x8 is better then NO layout or a dream layout that may never materialized.[:0]

As far as round the walls those are nice layouts but still LIMITED on what can be done unless one is using a basement...

Again,I ask what wrong with these layouts? All offers switching action.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/mr2001.gif

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gc09/gc09-01.jpg

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gc10/gc10-04.jpg


Just because a layout is 4x6 or 4x8 isn't any sign that one is force to use 18" curves..You see a 22" curve will work as well and will allow you to use those 6 axle units.The thing to remember while designing a small 4x6 or 4x8 layout is to UNDERSTAND what can be done..This comes from thinking outside of the box of (if I may) the Lionel mentality of 4x6 and 4x8 layout design as well as using the space wisely instead of the unneeded mountains,unrealistic grades and copying some layout seen in magazines or books...Once one climbs above those self imposed obstacles then one can plan a great 4x6 or 4x8 layout and have room for those 22" curves that I mention...
Also a 18" curve isn't evil..What makes them evil is trying to run long wheel base engines and cars on curves that they was never intended to run on..[}:)]

[Fergmiester]

And the irony is...

Yesterday, I told Dad (he's 84) that I'd build him a 4x8 layout. He asked me if I could give him a double track. Now to come up with a plan that's more than a roundy round.

This may prove interesting.

Fergie

[canazar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Ravenstar: Well said and yes the scenery and art work on the layout is without question is excellent. And yes it makes an excellent display peice as it's a real charmer.

And yes I'm sitting in my arm chair eating my humble pie...


I cou'ld say more but as you've stated

"Nuff said"

Fergie

I third. Something that I realized about this hobby, if we want to have it in 30 years (I'm 31) or if my son wants to get into it when he is my age, we have a responsibility to promote and get people into involved. (that why am I part of a modular club that does public shows and events) Let's face someone who has never done any modeling would look at all these massive layouts and be intimidated! They will be scared away by the work and the skills, they think they will never have.

To get people started or interested, you have to make it approachable or to have the person look at it, and say "Oh, I think can do that!" Honestly, I dont know what the fuss is all about the small 4x8 article. Unless you maybe you have forgotten what is like to be a "newbie" or a "rookie" with only one star by your name. Personally, I think it was a great idea for the magazine to do a something like this. A lot of people this time of year dable with the "Under the Tree Train"
Maybe for some, they will get a bit of an itch and want to do a bit more.
Maybe head to the LHS and see the cover of the MR...
Maybe they will think, "I have all that train stuff already, I have room...."
Maybe they will say "Hey, I could do this!"

And our hobby grows by one more.


Cheers and Props to the staff of MR for putting it up. [:D]

Warmest Regards
John K

[BRAKIE]

John,,Absolutely! Look again at those layouts I posted..IMHO the greenest of greenhorns can build those layouts and not feel imitated by the size.


David said:Running trains in a 4x8 oval IS boring. Switching cars on a 4x8 layout is boring. Building it is where the fun is. I got into model railroading because I enjoy building intricate little details on my layout. I didn't build it to run trains in a circle. My layout has been downsized to a 8x12 around the wall in my basement. I've got 2 main lines to run trains on with lots of industries but I have more fun building the scenery and buildings now then I do watching my trains go around in a big circle.
===========================================================
Dave,That is your enjoyment.Mine is just the opposite..I have a small fortune in locomotives,cars and buildings..I don't intend to gawk at these fine models while playing carpenter or spending all my time building.If I did I would build model ships or NASCARS.

I believe the tread of RTR engines and cars,custom built layouts and the start of prebuilt structures plus the growing interest in operation I think there are more modelers wanting to operate then build.

Frankly I would rather build a small layout and finish it ,then building a large one that may never get finish.

[Anonymous]

Good day.

[soapbox]I have a 4X8 layout, why? because I have room for it but nothing bigger. My layout is simple, see below.


Basic oval with a few sidings.

I have 2 of my grand sons who like to come in and run trains, one is 6 yrs old the other is 13. The 13 yr old has asked me what will happen to it if some show go real wrong with me. I asked him if he wanted it. His eyes lit up and he said he would love to have it and pass it on. This was 2 weeks ago. Yes he loves video games, sports, and has discovered girls, but he also enjoys running trains and learning a little bit of what model railroading is all about.

An exception? perhaps, I think that todays generation have many hobbies to choose from, when I grew up, television was a novelty and radio had much more to offer. Trains were the mean method of moving goods about the country, naturally, we were interested in these huge iron monsters, This is our hobby because the real machines have peaked our curiosity and we also want to remember the way it was.

The topic is relevant and we have a great challenge to keep the hobby alive. [2c]

[talon104]

I have to agree with BRAKIE. I am on my first layout and , trying different ideas ,way to do thing , but trying to also get to the finished product at the same time.This is my starter layout ( my first car if you will) and am learning what i can first before deciding to go on to other things. Yes, it is a 4x8 ,yes it has a foam base, heck and yes is it pretty basic large oval with a smaller in the middle.
funny thing i got off work last night and got no here reading here and there and there are alot of kinda negative post about everything. I understand people have their opinions but, it makes people like me start to think about post like this one and realize i am never going to post any pick of my layout cause people not all ,have gotten to caught up in this for so long that they are better than the person starting out now forgetting ,they too had to start somewhere.
A 4x8 is basic , but it works for some , not having certain things on one's layout works for some. Not being so critical "Priceless
Chris

[trainfreek92]

Brakie, those layouts you posted were fine layouts!!!! they did not look like they were to hard to buid and they did have switching opertunities. also you might be able to get even more layout in a 4x8 if you modeled N scale. My layout is a 4x8 with a 36x80 extension. that will keep me happy throught my years as a teen im sure. when older my prefrence would not be for a 4x8 but still a layout that can be finished and is good sised with good scenery. so thats my opinion. Tim

[Anonymous]

I love the subject " Oh Come On Now"

Have we all forgot Christmas morning. Trains running around the tree. Going to the local department store and seeing a actual layout. I'm talking early 1950's here but the joy and excitement of railroading took root.

4x8 layouts have a place in our hearts. It is a begining , or it may be all we can afford, or maybe it is all we have room for . But it is model railroading! For you Guys with 10,000 feet of room and 1,000 miles of track, I salute you.

DonT1985---Atlanta GA

[grayfox1119]

This is a great threat because it strikes at the heart of this hobby in so many ways, and makes us "think" about all those things that make this a hobby that we love.
As for kids today, yes, they live in a world that does not demand personal creativity in the same ways that we had to develop, therefore they want action, non stop, something "new" something "their" generation. Just look at music, what was the music like in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, and so on to this decade. See what I mean? Each generation wants their "own" identitiy. Of course there are exceptions, that is why we have many young people in this MRR hobby , many on this forum. They love this hobby because it gives them several things, such as, personal satisfaction in their own creativity, pride, accomplishment, and comraderie with the "older" folks on this forum ( yes , me at 66 ). Each of us in our own personal way, is enjoying this hobby for it brings to us. It does not matter if we start, or even keep a 4x8 layout because that is all the room we have. Some of us start at 4x8 and expand into larger layouts both because we have the room, and because we want more.
That is "exactly" what the young people of today, and some adults too, are suffering from......I call it the " kid in the candy store" syndrome. There is SO MUCH out there in our very materialistic world, that they run from one thing to another as they get bored, never really finding lasting pleasure or self fulfillment.
It is this same syndrome that gets people into a "funk"because they have so much that they don't know what to do next so they never get started on anything. Today it Playstation, then X-Box, or gee maybe Karate, or maybe Hockey.
In days long ago before TV and all the games of today, we listened to the radio, to programs like "The Lone Ranger" or "Sergeant Preston & his dog Yukon King", etc, and we had to "create" the scenes in our minds as the action played out in our ears. The pace was much slower, we had time to think, to plan, and never felt rushed. Today, people are on a treadmill that is going ever faster, and the pleasures are all false, never really giving us what we really desire.
So I have turned to MRR, and.....gardening in the summer, some woodworking, doing all my own home repairs of plumbing, electrical, painting, floors, maintenance, ohh yes...photography, electronics, computers, tutoring the grandkids who need to pass MCAS, lector at church, the wife's "honey do " jar list, cutting our wood for the winter stove burning, gee did I say that I also started MRR'ing too?