Re: Oh Come On Now!

[oleirish]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsheeh9427

I was showing my sons the Stoney Creek layout and how it was done. I have 3 of the four issues. My dog chewed the January issue up. My kids really want to build it. I have heard it as well. It just goes round and round. But ike many of you have said we need to make it interesting for them. I went out and bought wood today for the bench work. however I ahve never built one before. I remeber some of the materials from the January issue but not all of it. If any of you have a materials list and the snapshots form the Jan issue I would greatly appreciate it.

I plan on adding in a slot street, Meaning I will have my cars and buggies move on a electric slot. Giveing more realization to it. I do plan on adding some more lines and maybe a coal mine. I'm just using the stoney creek as a starting point and will move from there. Both my sons are really into it. If anyone can help that would be great.

John

[#welcome]to this crazy forum,hope to see more of you[:)]these guys I'll bet don't even see you,but welcome!!!
JIM

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Greyryder

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sadly those that have nice king size basements and arm chair "dream layout planners" seems to be the ones that thumb their noses at those that have 4x8 layouts.Well,think of this a 4x8 is better then NO layout or a dream layout that may never materialized.[:0]

I'm one of those who doesn't like 4x8 layouts. I am neither an armchair MRer, nor the owner of a massive basement empire. I simply preffer switching operations, to watching trains run laps. I find that oval layouts limit the amount of switching that can be fit into the space. Honestly, I don't have the space for a 4x8. I wish I sis, I'm sure I could build a nicer layout than I have, in the space. Even if it was only 8x2. (though I have gien thought to an 8x2 switching area on a hill, that would interchange with the mainline 4x8 oval below.)

I don't look down on anyone who builds a 4x8. If you've built what you like, and enjoy it, good for you. I've built what I like, and I enjoy it.

Same here. I have a basement empire (though I'd be hard pressed to call it 'massive'). I can't recommend a 4x8 as a starting point.

I'm the first to agree it's better than nothing, and I certainly don't 'thumb my nose' at those who have them. I simply think there are better ways to get started that are more likely to keep someone engaged, and take up about the same amount of space.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

The Stoney Creek, to me, is not a an example of a good beginner's layout. It has useful construction and scenery techniques, but little to offer for operations once built. If I were advising a beginner, I would push him/her to use one of the other examples I cited, using the techniques in Stoney Creek if they wanted.

My opinions, yours may vary.

yours in having fun
Fred W

Couldn't agree more. From the operations/trackwork perspective, SC is simply an oval with a siding. zZZzzzzzz [|)]

From a scenery standpoint, it's quite a reach for the beginner, I'd say. It showcases scenery and techniques more suited to the experienced modeler than the beginner.

I actually see it as more representative of a 'display' layout like you might find at the LHS. I mean, c'mon already... walnut fascia? It's very 'pretty' with lots of scenery techniques crammed into a small space, but operationally is really designed to run on a "set it and forget it" basis. In fact, it's not unlike the display layout at a shop I used to frequent at my previous address.

[fwright]

A good 4x8 can be fun to both operate and build for several years - see Harold Minkwitz's Pacific Coast Airline RR at http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com as a great example. A good 4x8 can also be expanded with add-on shelves quite nicely, which adds substantially to the operations. Examples of this being done with MR project railroads that I recall include the Turtle Creek, Jerome and Southwestern, and Portage Hill and Communipaw.

A 4x8 probably offers both more operational versatility and greater portability without major alterations to those of us who move frequently than do wall-mounted shelf layouts. Extending a 4x8 with a wall-mounted shelf addition gives the best of both worlds.

For a 4x8 to work well as a long term project, you have to be willing to live within and cherish its limitations. Train length maximum to look reasonable and fit passing tracks is 5ft regardless of scale - this is about 8-9 40ft cars plus locomotive in HO. 18'' is about the biggest practical minimum radius for interesting design, again regardless of scale. Lighting and backdrops are more difficult to make look good/work well than on a shelf layout.

The Stoney Creek, to me, is not a an example of a good beginner's layout. It has useful construction and scenery techniques, but little to offer for operations once built. If I were advising a beginner, I would push him/her to use one of the other examples I cited, using the techniques in Stoney Creek if they wanted.

My opinions, yours may vary.

yours in having fun
Fred W

[Medina1128]

When I get to the point that I'm bored, I go to my LHS and buy some Woodland Scenics details. There's all kinds of small details that bring a railroad scene to life. Involve your kids in making a scene, or get a building kit and build a diorama that can be incorporated into your railroad. There are so many things you can do with a 4'x'8' layout. Just my [2c]

[Anonymous]

I was showing my sons the Stoney Creek layout and how it was done. I have 3 of the four issues. My dog chewed the January issue up. My kids really want to build it. I have heard it as well. It just goes round and round. But ike many of you have said we need to make it interesting for them. I went out and bought wood today for the bench work. however I ahve never built one before. I remeber some of the materials from the January issue but not all of it. If any of you have a materials list and the snapshots form the Jan issue I would greatly appreciate it.

I plan on adding in a slot street, Meaning I will have my cars and buggies move on a electric slot. Giveing more realization to it. I do plan on adding some more lines and maybe a coal mine. I'm just using the stoney creek as a starting point and will move from there. Both my sons are really into it. If anyone can help that would be great.

John

[trainfreek92]

Mouse i have just glanced at the layout in question.the scenery is great! the track plan however.....[V] but it is a way of getting people into the hobby. coulnt they have made a more intresting plan. that plan does not know the the meaning of the word 'switching" or operations. Tim

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

The oh Come on Now thread is not about 4 x 8's in general, it is about the one in particular.

Absolutely! We weren't flaming the 4x8, far from it! The point was why settle for an oval when you can do so much more.

Granted, the scenery in the January MR article is excellent and does a lot for the imagination but from an operational perspective it's laclustre.

I will say this, the barn raising scenario will be replicated on my layout as it does add a lot of depth.

Fergie

[SpaceMouse]

The oh Come on Now thread is not about 4 x 8's in general, it is about the one in particular.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

For those of us for whom permanent layouts and dedicated train rooms are out of the question, a combination of a 4x8 with a switching extension can be a very effective layout. A 1962-1963 MR project - the PH&C - was a great layout exploring this idea. Even the recent Turtle Creek extension was an effective demonstration of extending a 4x8 - although it needed a run-around track to make the extension a switching destination.

The 4x8 plus switching extension gives the best of both worlds in an easily accomplished amount of space. More switching than the 2 sides of the 4x8 can yield, but still have a continuous run for the times when it's just fun. Sure lighting is more difficult, and I am less likely to achieve the "uber realism" of some linear shelf layouts. But the 4x8 is much easier to sell to the family as a place to start, and is within the reach and vision of most.

I understand the arguments for going around the walls in the same space, but sometimes that isn't as practical as the concept's advocates will admit. In my case, the room has multiple purposes (and trains are not the highest priority use), and there are 2 windows and 2 doors to deal with. Add in that I will probably move in less than 2 years, and the around-the-walls doesn't make sense.

Futhermore, the 4x8 plus extension(s) lends itself very easily to phased construction. I think we seem to have lost a lot of the ideas in "growing" a model railroad over time that were featured in the past. The advantages of doing a little trackwork, a little scenery, and a little operating, followed by more of each as time, money, and space permit are huge to those who are unsure of themselves or their hobby commitment, whether beginner or advanced.

Because of the above, I too was disappointed by the track plan in the January MR. Hopefully, there will be enough useful construction "how-to" that can be applied to other track plans. My gut feel is that a beginner who built the layout as designed will fini***he scenery to some degree and say, "Now what?" Whereas the same level of construction explanation and effort applied to a 4x8 with more operating and/or switching potential built-in would have better suited the beginner. As it stands, I would feel it my duty to advise and help a newbie to use the series as a construction guide for a DIFFERENT track plan.

yours in planning

Just to add a little fuel to the fire, Don Ball's Moraga Springs Northern was based on the Portage Hill & Communipaw with a couple of extensions. Don's web page seems to have disappeared into Area "404" , but you can see the track plan if you've got a copy of MRP 2000. The plan also appeared in the 1995 MRP.

I wonder if the powers that be at MR could be persuaded to reprint the PH&C series.

Andre

[fwright]

For those of us for whom permanent layouts and dedicated train rooms are out of the question, a combination of a 4x8 with a switching extension can be a very effective layout. A 1962-1963 MR project - the PH&C - was a great layout exploring this idea. Even the recent Turtle Creek extension was an effective demonstration of extending a 4x8 - although it needed a run-around track to make the extension a switching destination.

The 4x8 plus switching extension gives the best of both worlds in an easily accomplished amount of space. More switching than the 2 sides of the 4x8 can yield, but still have a continuous run for the times when it's just fun. Sure lighting is more difficult, and I am less likely to achieve the "uber realism" of some linear shelf layouts. But the 4x8 is much easier to sell to the family as a place to start, and is within the reach and vision of most.

I understand the arguments for going around the walls in the same space, but sometimes that isn't as practical as the concept's advocates will admit. In my case, the room has multiple purposes (and trains are not the highest priority use), and there are 2 windows and 2 doors to deal with. Add in that I will probably move in less than 2 years, and the around-the-walls doesn't make sense.

Futhermore, the 4x8 plus extension(s) lends itself very easily to phased construction. I think we seem to have lost a lot of the ideas in "growing" a model railroad over time that were featured in the past. The advantages of doing a little trackwork, a little scenery, and a little operating, followed by more of each as time, money, and space permit are huge to those who are unsure of themselves or their hobby commitment, whether beginner or advanced.

Because of the above, I too was disappointed by the track plan in the January MR. Hopefully, there will be enough useful construction "how-to" that can be applied to other track plans. My gut feel is that a beginner who built the layout as designed will fini***he scenery to some degree and say, "Now what?" Whereas the same level of construction explanation and effort applied to a 4x8 with more operating and/or switching potential built-in would have better suited the beginner. As it stands, I would feel it my duty to advise and help a newbie to use the series as a construction guide for a DIFFERENT track plan.

yours in planning

[Anonymous]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a 4x8. Truth is, that's probably the best way to learn the basics of model railroading and to gain the inspiration to do more. And, of course, it is the way that most people start out in the hobby because a sheet of 4x8 plywood is simply a logical and convenient way for many to get their start. And it's completely logical for MR to provide that inspiration on an annual basis to those who are introduced to the hobby during the holiday season (the time when most are enticed to join in).

And forget about coercing kids to get involved in the hobby. It's a HOBBY, and some folks--kids, included--will be attracted to it, and many others will not. It has always been that way, and always will be. You can't force your son or daughter to become involved. Their interest will either evolve or it will not. You can encourage it, but you definitely cannot force it (which will have just the opposite effect of the desired one).

Enjoy your hobby in your way, and stop fretting about others. If they see you having fun, that's the best "sell" for the hobby that there possibly is.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE


Sadly those that have nice king size basements and arm chair "dream layout planners" seems to be the ones that thumb their noses at those that have 4x8 layouts.

Hmmmmm......

I have a king-sized basement and am building a layout to fill it. It will probably never be finished, but I enjoy putting each new section of track in service.

I NEVER thumb my nose at what anyone chooses to do with their hobby time, unless that time is used to belittle someone else's hobby time accomplishments.

Whather a layout is 4X6 or 40X60 or anywhere in between is irrelevant. If it gives the owner pleasure, it is worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

One day we'll all own warehouses and the have won the lottery...[:-^] That's when you'll only see me in the warehouse...and at the hobby shop. My layout guys....is a three foot circle around the tree....and I do the same thing...think of what I'll do when I get the space. My mind goes faster than light just thinking of what to put where. But in the meantime...it is cool to see it lap the tree.

[BRAKIE]

Well,several of my posts deals with the fact I like industrial switching layouts above all other types and Iike yard switching..However,I will be honest enough to say switching cars continually gets boring.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sadly those that have nice king size basements and arm chair "dream layout planners" seems to be the ones that thumb their noses at those that have 4x8 layouts.Well,think of this a 4x8 is better then NO layout or a dream layout that may never materialized.[:0]

I'm one of those who doesn't like 4x8 layouts. I am neither an armchair MRer, nor the owner of a massive basement empire. I simply preffer switching operations, to watching trains run laps. I find that oval layouts limit the amount of switching that can be fit into the space. Honestly, I don't have the space for a 4x8. I wish I sis, I'm sure I could build a nicer layout than I have, in the space. Even if it was only 8x2. (though I have gien thought to an 8x2 switching area on a hill, that would interchange with the mainline 4x8 oval below.)

I don't look down on anyone who builds a 4x8. If you've built what you like, and enjoy it, good for you. I've built what I like, and I enjoy it.

[Anonymous]

Heyy guys!!! 4x8 is nothing i got a 4x6 and check this track out alot can be done with 4x6 even 4x8!!

[Anonymous]

Yes, yet someone else with an opinion - not that it will be any better.

I am in the process of building my 8yr old son HIS first table. When it comes to my personal layout, it takes less than 10 minutes before his attention is drawn outside the room. So why would I would build him his own layout? Well, it is because I don’t have the things he is currently interested in as I like to keep it mostly hands-off. A 4x8 was chosen because he is a kid and is not big enough to grab a car much more than 20” from the end of the table. His layout is a rather involved and has a planned expansion point. He (nor I for that matter) did not design the layout, but he did put in his thoughts on what he wanted to do with the operations. Surprisingly, when I listened to him, what he was mostly interested in is hands on stuff. Things like loading coal, freight, timber. How his cars would get around, and what would be in the water. I am installing DCC so routes can be changed with minimal effort on his part. Running the trains was, and still is, the last thing on his mind. Even with his current snap tracks it’s about what is happening to the trains when they are stopped and how the environment reacts with the trains as they pass.

My son likes to play by interacting with things. X-BOX and Game Cube are fun for him, but pushing buttons on a controller will rarely get more than 10-20 minutes of his time. Give him some Bionicle’s, or a box of snap track and a bucket of Lincoln logs, and he is occupied for hours.

So what does this mean (beyond the fact that I have the ability to ramble)? I interpret it as he does not like to stare at the trains, and the mathematics in switching is a bit beyond fun for him. My son (kids?) likes to play by interacting with things. When he gets older he may change to where he would rather sit and watch. Or he may be more like me where more time is spent on creation and modification than actually operation. Time will tell.

Two last thoughts (one borrowed):

Not every kid will be interested in trains.

If we measured the longevity of MRR by how exciting it is or is not, then it will be alive and kicking forever. -Gone fishing anyone?

[james saunders]

ive got a 4x8 why? because i got no room for more, i might extend it later on with a door or something, but for now im happy building and operating my 4x8 btw this is my 4th layout in 6 years ive had 2 4x8s a 2x14 and a 5x5.

OZJIM

[dharmon]

So Elliot....are you going to going on record as saying that anyone that doesn't have a point A to point B layout or in some cases only room for a Diorama, is not a model railroader? [;)]

I'd say they it's all a matter of perspective in what you have, talents, desire and most of all enjoyment that qualifies you as a model railroader or railroad modeller.

Dan

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by luct

Good day.

[soapbox]I have a 4X8 layout, why? because I have room for it but nothing bigger. My layout is simple, see below.


Basic oval with a few sidings.

I have 2 of my grand sons who like to come in and run trains, one is 6 yrs old the other is 13. The 13 yr old has asked me what will happen to it if some show go real wrong with me. I asked him if he wanted it. His eyes lit up and he said he would love to have it and pass it on. This was 2 weeks ago. Yes he loves video games, sports, and has discovered girls, but he also enjoys running trains and learning a little bit of what model railroading is all about.

An exception? perhaps, I think that todays generation have many hobbies to choose from, when I grew up, television was a novelty and radio had much more to offer. Trains were the mean method of moving goods about the country, naturally, we were interested in these huge iron monsters, This is our hobby because the real machines have peaked our curiosity and we also want to remember the way it was.

The topic is relevant and we have a great challenge to keep the hobby alive. [2c]

Luc, that's not a simple layout. It is wondrefully complex for it's size. It is a small RAILROAD!!!. And for MR's purpose of illustration, far superior to what was published.

Regardless of era modeled, railroading is still about moving goods (and people) from point A to point B.

There is nothing wrong with building pretty dioramas with trains, but it isn't exactly model railroading, or is it?

[talon104]

Visions should start somewhere and have the room to grow. starting out i only saw one thing . Now as i look i see other's that are possible and still others that i might wanna try later down the road. I am happy with my layout so far. do i see things wrong with it( yes) will i try and fix them ( yes ) but ,it gives me the starting point[:D]
My 4x8 might stay like that . but someday i just might get a little bigger[:p]
Chris

[loathar]

Let's face it. If a kid doesn't have any imagination, their not going to like this hobby no matter how much money you pump into your layout.(that leaves more Athearn BB's for me![}:)])

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

The 4x8 foot layout has serve and still serves the hobby well from the newest greenhorn to the oldest veteran.

Sadly those that have nice king size basements and arm chair "dream layout planners" seems to be the ones that thumb their noses at those that have 4x8 layouts.Well,think of this a 4x8 is better then NO layout or a dream layout that may never materialized.[:0]

As far as round the walls those are nice layouts but still LIMITED on what can be done unless one is using a basement...

Again,I ask what wrong with these layouts? All offers switching action.

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gcrr2.jpg

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/mr2001.gif

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gc09/gc09-01.jpg

http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gc10/gc10-04.jpg


Just because a layout is 4x6 or 4x8 isn't any sign that one is force to use 18" curves..You see a 22" curve will work as well and will allow you to use those 6 axle units.The thing to remember while designing a small 4x6 or 4x8 layout is to UNDERSTAND what can be done..This comes from thinking outside of the box of (if I may) the Lionel mentality of 4x6 and 4x8 layout design as well as using the space wisely instead of the unneeded mountains,unrealistic grades and copying some layout seen in magazines or books...Once one climbs above those self imposed obstacles then one can plan a great 4x6 or 4x8 layout and have room for those 22" curves that I mention...
Also a 18" curve isn't evil..What makes them evil is trying to run long wheel base engines and cars on curves that they was never intended to run on..[}:)]

I love those layouts you've linked Brakie, because they have some railroad interest. Layouts don't have to be large to be interesting. Each of them has a basic loop of track, but there is a lot more. I would much rather see 4 parts devoted to one of them, than to this.

The fault I find with the MR layout in question has to do with it's general lack of railroading. It may work as a showroom display, and it may be able to demonstrate general building techniques, but I wouldn't want to build it. It is flat out dull, and would be just the same without the train. The train is almost an after thought, not the subject!!!

I would rather see a project layout have a better track plan regardless of size.

What is the point of model railroading without a "railroad"? John Armstrong and Linn Wescott are probably turning in their graves. (No disrespect intended.) It almost seems that the magazine is no longer interested in teaching the railroading aspect of the hobby to newbies. It is all about how, and not about why. The railroad is supposed to be the focus, otherwise they might as well change the name of the magazine.

I understand that the editors are trying to appeal to the broadest audience possible, but creativity need not be sacrificed in the process. I think what we are seeing is the difference between railfans who can write, and journalists who can model.

Anyone remember "New Coke"?

In the end, it isn't size that matters, it's what you do with it!!![swg]

[dwRavenstar]

I have to assume that the upcoming series of articles will intend to educate newbies and experienced modellers alike. Beyond that I'd have to believe that it will be intended to get us THINKING. The series is only a quarter of the way out of the bag and it looks like it's already accomplished that second intention. [8D]

Each of us has our own desires, dreams and talents. If your dream is to visit Disney World you can get there in a Mercedes or a pickup, whichever suits your taste and budget. Once you're there you have a myriad of choices of what you want to visit. Your choices might differ from mine but what can I say about that? After all, my pickup is parked three rows behind some guy's Mercedes out in the lot.

It's a given that we want more folks involved in the hobby. After all, misery loves company, right? (No offense meant, I'm nursing two scuffed knuckles and a shallow puncture wound from a re-scenicking project I started this week.) In the same vein of thinking that you wouldn't want everyone that took up an interest in medical research to focus their talents and studies on a better dandruff treatment, we wouldn't limit railroad modellers to any restriction other than their own personal preference and methods. Taking both scenarios to their extreme; we'd become a hobby of frustrated, financially destroyed wannabees with our cellars filled wall to wall with the scream of DCC whistles, extremely well laid track and enough bare plywood to rebuild Baghdad. Of course, our kids would all have great looking hair, bad acne, harsh coughs and a snowy day's worth of snot dripping from their chin. (Sorry, that got a bit graphic.)

You gotta do your own thing. Imagine the possibilities and then think of a way to make them a reality. I'm sure not looking to out do, out spend or humble anyone with my efforts or my insights but (despite these throbbing fingers) I'm having a helluva time building this railroad model. [:D]

Keep the faith folks. Even three pieces of flex track connected with a hand operated switch can be considered a layout. (If you have $30K worth of scenery surrounding it-----JUST KIDDING!!) Fun and satisfaction is the goal, how you get there is YOUR business.

dwRavenstar

[grayfox1119]

This is a great threat because it strikes at the heart of this hobby in so many ways, and makes us "think" about all those things that make this a hobby that we love.
As for kids today, yes, they live in a world that does not demand personal creativity in the same ways that we had to develop, therefore they want action, non stop, something "new" something "their" generation. Just look at music, what was the music like in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, and so on to this decade. See what I mean? Each generation wants their "own" identitiy. Of course there are exceptions, that is why we have many young people in this MRR hobby , many on this forum. They love this hobby because it gives them several things, such as, personal satisfaction in their own creativity, pride, accomplishment, and comraderie with the "older" folks on this forum ( yes , me at 66 ). Each of us in our own personal way, is enjoying this hobby for it brings to us. It does not matter if we start, or even keep a 4x8 layout because that is all the room we have. Some of us start at 4x8 and expand into larger layouts both because we have the room, and because we want more.
That is "exactly" what the young people of today, and some adults too, are suffering from......I call it the " kid in the candy store" syndrome. There is SO MUCH out there in our very materialistic world, that they run from one thing to another as they get bored, never really finding lasting pleasure or self fulfillment.
It is this same syndrome that gets people into a "funk"because they have so much that they don't know what to do next so they never get started on anything. Today it Playstation, then X-Box, or gee maybe Karate, or maybe Hockey.
In days long ago before TV and all the games of today, we listened to the radio, to programs like "The Lone Ranger" or "Sergeant Preston & his dog Yukon King", etc, and we had to "create" the scenes in our minds as the action played out in our ears. The pace was much slower, we had time to think, to plan, and never felt rushed. Today, people are on a treadmill that is going ever faster, and the pleasures are all false, never really giving us what we really desire.
So I have turned to MRR, and.....gardening in the summer, some woodworking, doing all my own home repairs of plumbing, electrical, painting, floors, maintenance, ohh yes...photography, electronics, computers, tutoring the grandkids who need to pass MCAS, lector at church, the wife's "honey do " jar list, cutting our wood for the winter stove burning, gee did I say that I also started MRR'ing too?

[Anonymous]

I love the subject " Oh Come On Now"

Have we all forgot Christmas morning. Trains running around the tree. Going to the local department store and seeing a actual layout. I'm talking early 1950's here but the joy and excitement of railroading took root.

4x8 layouts have a place in our hearts. It is a begining , or it may be all we can afford, or maybe it is all we have room for . But it is model railroading! For you Guys with 10,000 feet of room and 1,000 miles of track, I salute you.

DonT1985---Atlanta GA

[trainfreek92]

Brakie, those layouts you posted were fine layouts!!!! they did not look like they were to hard to buid and they did have switching opertunities. also you might be able to get even more layout in a 4x8 if you modeled N scale. My layout is a 4x8 with a 36x80 extension. that will keep me happy throught my years as a teen im sure. when older my prefrence would not be for a 4x8 but still a layout that can be finished and is good sised with good scenery. so thats my opinion. Tim

[talon104]

I have to agree with BRAKIE. I am on my first layout and , trying different ideas ,way to do thing , but trying to also get to the finished product at the same time.This is my starter layout ( my first car if you will) and am learning what i can first before deciding to go on to other things. Yes, it is a 4x8 ,yes it has a foam base, heck and yes is it pretty basic large oval with a smaller in the middle.
funny thing i got off work last night and got no here reading here and there and there are alot of kinda negative post about everything. I understand people have their opinions but, it makes people like me start to think about post like this one and realize i am never going to post any pick of my layout cause people not all ,have gotten to caught up in this for so long that they are better than the person starting out now forgetting ,they too had to start somewhere.
A 4x8 is basic , but it works for some , not having certain things on one's layout works for some. Not being so critical "Priceless
Chris