The H10-44 with QSI is one of the best engines I own out of about 40 mostly late model DCC/sound units.
It's a great value as well. I paid $159, but just saw one on ebay go for $119. You can barely buy a sound decoder for those prices.
I've got a P2K H10-44 coming in the mail as we speak...hope it meets expectations!
I have many P2K diesels and have put many real miles on them. Other than the crack gear on the first run problem, the company replaces them. I detailed them up with SP light packages. For me, P2K look great and operate well. Also, they were FIRST with grab irons!
Just finished reading all the posts as I had not bothered to look before. I have right at 300 diesels on my roster for my Santa Fe railroad. A large number of those are Kato SD40-2's, a large number are Atlas GP38's, I have some Genesis (without the sound dcc), I have a fairly large number of P2K, more Kato in the GP35 and SD40 models, all with DCC. What I don't have are any blue box Athearn. What I don't want are any blue box Athearn. My layout is fairly large, is host to operating groups, and again I say, no blue box Athearn.
Bob
snrmI am amazed at the number of people that defended these products.
Given that this is the case, perhaps it is an indication that what happened to you is the exception, not the rule.
none of my protos have had these issues------
It's just another kvetch---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Walthers bought proto from Life Like many years ago, and talking to the parts representative a couple of years ago, they also purchased boxes of parts from production runs that were made years before under Life-Like. In my situation, I wanted handrails for an old GP18, and the only thing available was a GP18 detail parts bag leftover from a newer run, i.e thinner handrails than my older run GP had, complete with fans, grab irons, sun-shades, etc. Also, I needed a worm gear clip for an SW unit. The parts rep was very helpful for both of my needs, and took a worm clip from another SW that was on hand (like real railroads do) and threw it it for free. But, I don't think I would get the same service today.
My point is....is that those old parts from old Life-Like runs are probably long gone, and only parts for current runs are available. Even Atlas probably only makes parts for the current China version of their GP-7's and Century's and if you ask them for handrails for the older Japan/Kato run of one of those locomotives, you can probably only get the thinner version supplied for the newer China runs from them.
The realities of business and manufacturing cannot be ignored. I'm amazed at the folks who blanketly criticize an entire company because a commonly available $2.50 replacement part is considered a big deal, when the part wasn't even the responsibility of the current company. If it is a brand new run of a locomotive, I understand. If you have problem with parts or quality with new Walthers runs, that seems more justified than judging a company based on something that was built 10 years ago by, essentially, a different company.
- Douglas
alocoI like my Life-Like GM switchers.
I like my Life-Like GM switchers.
I have many Life-Like P2K locos and all of them are superb runners. And I really love my little SW9 switchers.
snrmI am amazed at the number of people that defended these products. I paid approximately $100 each for these units that developed cracked gears in the 1st 30 minutes.
You may have only had them for 30 min., but they where manufactured 8-10 years ago.
snrmI placed a backorder request for replacement gears assemblies over 3 weeks ago and still don't have them. I did not ask for any warranty replacement parts because I did not want to wait. I wonder how they could do warranty repairs if they don't have any gear assemblies?
For years they had plenty and gave them away free, sorry they ran out on the day you needed some. They do come from China, that does not happen over night. Athearn and Atlas make great products as well and I'm glad you got some parts that worked, but Atlas and Athearn don't have every part, every day, for every train they have ever made either.
snrm One person said they break sitting in the box because the climate is not stable. Really???
Mine ran for years before they broke - yours sat in some store or warehouse for years before they broke.
snrm I just felt that new locos that cost $100 shouldn't break the first day.
No they should not break - but mistakes happen in life. Tens of thousands of these locos were made and shipped, and in dealers and customers hands before any of them broke or anyone found the problem. What else could they do but give out free gears or fix it if you returned it?
AND AGAIN, not every gear in every loco broke or is going to break, only the gears in one large production run are known to have this problem.
You are welcome to buy or not buy whatever products you choose, but it will be you who looses available selection of products by unfairly excluding Proto2000 based on this.
Sheldon
I am amazed at the number of people that defended these products. I paid approximately $100 each for these units that developed cracked gears in the 1st 30 minutes. I have some old Athearn blue box units that are 25 years old and still run fine. I wanted to put a KCS layout together and only Proto made the GPs I wanted. I placed a backorder request for replacement gears assemblies over 3 weeks ago and still don't have them. I did not ask for any warranty replacement parts because I did not want to wait. I wonder how they could do warranty repairs if they don't have any gear assemblies? I called Horizon Hobbies and ordered a 12 pack and had them in 3 days. They work fine and the fix is easy so for now I have lots of spares. The Athearn part # is ATH 40019. One person said they break sitting in the box because the climate is not stable. Really??? I have 2 Atlas locos that are by far better than anything else I have owned and I just got an Athearn Genesis F7A/B set that is amazing. I'm not trying to promote one brand over the other. I just felt that new locos that cost $100 shouldn't break the first day. I don't own any steam engines and don't know anything about them. At any rate I'm going to stick with Atlas and Athearn Genesis.
I didn't get a chance to read the previous postings on this subject, but I really whish I had.
If a locomotive can play Submarine in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath, and still run when the water-logged consist is retrieved, then I must say, that's a good locomotive (I whish I could get more of them, I live in what I guess could be the only state with "Hurricane Season." Not much risk of floods where I am though) Also, I have seen it floating around that the cheepo- Life-like locomotives are good performers too. I can testify that almost all cheep locomotives are very good ( besides those 3 Life-Like GP 38-2s I mentioned earlier, my entire fleet consists of mainly locomotives valued at less than $30.00)
Good lord!
80 replies to this thread already. I just came across it, so I will add my two cents.
Proto 2000 engines are definitely worth it in spite of the split gear problem which I have had on a few.
Customer Service is outstanding, I have returned a few for repair over time.
Alton Junction
I like my Life-Like GM switchers. I have a couple dozen of them in various road names and they are my best running locos. The only things I don't like about them are the light weight at the cab end and the mounting tabs that secure the shell to the frame.
I have a few GP7s and a couple of FA units, and they run slightly better than Athearn blue box locos. The shells are nice, but the drives are not the greatest.
I don't get what you mean. I was at some sort of sale that BLI was having when they moved to Ormond Beach, FL (a hew hours from where I live) and I picked up 3 of the Proto 2000 GP 38-2s. I have had no problems (at least, no problems that I didn't cause) In my opinion, these locomotives have been the best I have had, both detail and operation wise. The only thing I could figure out is that the locomotives that had the complants may have happened as a result of those locomotives being one of the few faulty. It's a little known fact that, out of 1,000 of a certain product manufactured, 5-10 of those products are faulty. So mabe it's pure rotten luck that those people had those problematic locomotives.
I don't have problems with P2K engines either. I have a few--an E7, E8, and a GP7. All are incredibly smooth, and were picked up for much less than MSRP. Both E units came from an antique store, and the Geep was bought on Ebay. No cracked wheels that I could see! But, the only thing I *don't* like about the Es, is that they're annoyingly difficult to work on--to get at the motor, you have to remove the weight and disconnect a few wires. (I took mine apart so I could move the Mars lighting circuitry to the E8 frame.)
The U28B/U30B, Alco RS-27, and recent F Units are all terrific models that run great and will last (without having the gear cracking issues of earlier models).
I had negative experiences with the P2K steam power and lack of durability of the valve gear leading to very early failure (2-10-2). My 0-8-0 didn't run that well, and the headlight worked for about 5 minutes.
The best HO steam power I've ever had (excepting a few fine brass steamers) is the current MTH steam power. It is more reliable than BLI and more tolerant of track dirt than BLI.
John
snrm,
Yes, from reading posts on this website there have been some problems on some diesel models(fortunately none of the models that trigger my buy impulse). Aside from the problem models cited, the P2K diesels I have run flawlessly. I have several different steam models by P2K and in my opinion they are the gold standard for flawless steam running-they will do the 1 mph walk and mesmerize you watching the linkage do its "dance". Yes, the steamers could stand improvement in pulling power but the running characteristics blunt this shortcoming.
I don't have the biggest layout, I don't have the best trackwork but the P2K 2-10-2 (for example)traverses it with absolutely no problem.
Another plus is the detailing, extremely well done.
Jon
hi Jim no I don't think the p2ks are junk either.
you stated that you got replacement gears from life like. I called the parts number that came with my locos and got told there out of business. Sold to walthers call them and got told there not available.
I'm talking about the drive axel gears. I have 24 p2k e8e9 first release.all played submarine in Katrinia as we had 14 1/2 ft. of water here their all running but 2 - I used for parts need axel gears for them .
Tryed to use athearn gears they do work but there a little faster and a lot noiser.
if you have a good number to get parts would you please give it to me
thanks in advance
bRAKEMAN
snrm I have 2 new in the box Proto 2000 GP30s. They both developed thunking noise/split gears in the 1st 30 minutes of use. I am very disappointed. I contacted Walthers which was not easy. I had to do it by phone since the part number for replacement gears can not be ordered on line. Turns out they are on back order (what's that tell you?) with no estimate of time when they will arrive. They also told me to send proof of purchase and the old axles and they would determine if they were warranty. Yes, it's a quick easy fix but in my opinion I would need to stock a box full of replacement axles. I will probably relegate these two units to trackside static displays. No more life-like/proto stuff for me.
I have 2 new in the box Proto 2000 GP30s. They both developed thunking noise/split gears in the 1st 30 minutes of use. I am very disappointed. I contacted Walthers which was not easy. I had to do it by phone since the part number for replacement gears can not be ordered on line. Turns out they are on back order (what's that tell you?) with no estimate of time when they will arrive. They also told me to send proof of purchase and the old axles and they would determine if they were warranty. Yes, it's a quick easy fix but in my opinion I would need to stock a box full of replacement axles. I will probably relegate these two units to trackside static displays. No more life-like/proto stuff for me.
Well, buy or not buy as you choose, but I have about 50 Proto2000 diesels and yes a few had the famous cracked gear problem, but Life Like and now Walthers has provided replacements at no charge as needed. Sorry they are out of stock at this moment.
Other than the cracked gears issue, they all run great and have no other problems. AND, in my opinion are some of the best detailed, best running diesel locos out there.
Why was a phone call such a problem? Seems like the normal way to buy parts or get warranty help. Listing every part to every product on web page space is too costly and not practical for this type of business. And, I think expecting the parts for free does require proof of purchase - did you think you should just be able to go on line and order them for free because you say they are broken? A system like that would insure that they always be out of stock. Does the word fraud ring a bell?
These locos are "new in the box" but how old are they? Where did you buy them? How long ago? How much did you pay for them? They where most likely made many years ago, before Walthers was even in the picture. I think its darn good of them to stand behind the warranty the way they do.
With so many Proto locos on the "secondary" (read used, Ebay, basement dealer, etc) market, and being sold at very low prices much of the time, Walthers has only good will to gain by honoring the warranty - they likely never made a dime on many of the locos they have given away wheelsets for.
I even bought a small stockpile to repair any future "secondary" market purchases - blame me for them being out of stock. I bought them so I could fix any $40 specials I find down the road.
I have detemined that many of these gear failures were made worse because the locos were never sold when new, and often have been stored in non stable climates for many years before finally seeing a piece of track. Temperature swings, combined with a small manufacturing error, turned into a massive failure. But even at that, it is confined to a limited group of both type and age - not all Proto gears crack.
Very happy with all my Proto2000 locos,
snrmNo more life-like/proto stuff for me.
Snrm, first welcome to the site. Boy you sure pulled up a old post.
Far as gears, you can use Athearn gears. Most Protos don't crack gears but there was a bad batch. I have around 14 Protos and besides my 20 year old plus BL 2 I have never had a cracked gear.
Far as them being out of stock at Walther's, Protos just about last forever so I can see why they could run out. Or they keep there stock low because there is not much call for them!
I have PCM, BLI, Blue Line, Athearn, Stewart's and Protos. I only taken a part 1 Proto engine and it had 300 hours on it before the motor died! I swear at my other engines, I swear by my Protos!
Cuda Ken again.
I hate Rust
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QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix But if the drive is the same how do they run quieter than Athearn? different drive shafts maybe?
QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix i have heard about a lot of problems with them. there was a topic on this forum that someone had 2 P2K gp38-2's and after running them a few times they both shorted out across the wheels- and there was a long post on this forum(a few pages) about widespread p2k GP9 gear failues - so whats the verdict? are they worth it- if they have problems what is customer service like? if i'm gonna spend $100 on a loco it better last a good 10 years- my b-b gp38-2 sold new for $27.50 and it is nearly 12 years old and runs great -now that is value
QUOTE: dingoix, Do you rememeber those photo's I emailed you of some of the loco's that were in my collection cabinet? Some of them that you cannot see, because they are on my layout are P2K's. I have some of the first generation loco's in the IC road, some of the ones in the IC road in 2nd generation. They all run fine with no problems, They are GP7's, Gp9's and GP18's all IC roads. I did not pay more than $50 for any of them. the cheapest I paid for any of them is $23 off ebay for 2 of them, they both had cracked gears. The talk you and I had in an email awhile back about changing out the wheels and gears, and you asked me about it being the same as doing it on one of your BB Athearns, you are right, its the same. Now on to the gears, P2K's some of them, develop cracked gears, which you can hear it click after it splits. I just got my order from Discount Trains Online. I ordered 6 packs of the Athearn gears DTO #140-60024, there are 6 gears in each pack. The total for the 36 gears was $10.56, I also bought some freight cars for cheap they had on sale to absorb the cost of shipping, which is $6.95. Allot of people make a big deal about the split gears, its a nothing and easy to fix. Two packs of the gears from DTO is about $3.25, enough gears to fix 3, 8 wheel loco's, this is cheap! Shipping the loco off to the factory, cost you more in the long run. I have 12 P2K's now and really like them, I like the BB Athearn to. Look for the sales and deals on the P2K line, the first 2 GP7's I bought came from my LHS for $50 each. Look around there out there, you just got to find the deals on them.