Why Aren't There More Models of the Trains That Most People See on a Daily Basis?

[ira_g]

As someone who grew up with a large HO scale layout in my family's basement, and has always been interested in Model Railroading, I have always been curious as to why the Model Railroading Industry seems to focus on freight railroads (as well as steam), rather than on the Subway & Commuter railroads that most people see on a daily basis?

Perhaps I am in the minority, however, I would think that if the large manufacturers had more of a focus on models of the subway & commuter trains which many people ride (or have rode) to work on a daily basis, that there would be a tremendous demand for such models. Additionally, I would think that if these models were more available, it would help increase the overall interest in the hobby.

(Afterall, based on the daily ridership of mass transit via the rails in the Boston, Chicago, D.C., Montreal, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Toronto metropolitan areas, as well as those people who see these trains just by living in one of these metro area, that there would be a large demand in there were more models available.)

Please let me know if I am making sense. Thanks.

I.G.

[Anonymous]

First of all subways have no shine to them. They are usually dark drab unattractive trains, and don't jog the imagination of most people like a steam eninge or a new diesel.

[1shado1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ira_g

As someone who grew up with a large HO scale layout in my family's basement, and has always been interested in Model Railroading, I have always been curious as to why the Model Railroading Industry seems to focus on freight railroads (as well as steam), rather than on the Subway & Commuter railroads that most people see on a daily basis?

Perhaps I am in the minority, however, I would think that if the large manufacturers had more of a focus on models of the subway & commuter trains which many people ride (or have rode) to work on a daily basis, that there would be a tremendous demand for such models. Additionally, I would think that if these models were more available, it would help increase the overall interest in the hobby.

(Afterall, based on the daily ridership of mass transit via the rails in the Boston, Chicago, D.C., Montreal, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Toronto metropolitan areas, as well as those people who see these trains just by living in one of these metro area, that there would be a large demand in there were more models available.)

Please let me know if I am making sense. Thanks.

I.G.

Welcome to the forum!!!
Yes, you are making sense. You just happen to be wrong.[:D]

Jeff

[trainboyH16-44]

And they aren't big, like the real trains. They are associated with going to work, always a bad thing. There must be tons of reasons....
Matthew

[tstage]

I.G.,

First of all, [#welcome] to the forum! Good to have you aboard. [:)]

I think that the reason for the larger interest in freight over commuter or subway is that freight offers a wider variety of types, shapes, and sizes. A subway train, for all intents and purposes, remains exactly the same - day in and day out. A commuter train, a little less likely but still not much change.

With freight, your rolling stock is made up of boxcars, gondolas, tankers, reefers, auto racks, hoppers (open), hoppers (covered), flat cars, cabooses, etc. Then you have all the industries that are feed by the variety of rolling stock you are hauling. Then you have the arrangement of the rolling stock in the train. And on it goes.

Variety also helps to maintain a greater interest in what you are doing. You never know what you will be hauling and/or where it will eventually end up.

I.G., that's just a few reasons off the top of my head...

Tom

[Anonymous]

MATT GET OVER TO TEEN RAIL FAN PLACE ,THIS IS ERIC.

[AntonioFP45]

IraG, [#welcome][#welcome][#welcome][#welcome] Welcome Aboard!

Good question.

However, Tstage is right on the mark with his reply.

I was a subway and commuter train fan when I was a kid since I lived in a neighborhood served by 2 subway lines and the Penn Central. Lots of passenger trains. Today's new subway trains are gorgeous! The stainless steel Bombardier cars being used in New York City are quite shiny and clean as are the subway trains of Los Angeles. Miami Florida's eleveated transit trains are also beauties. Body style of the Miami cars are similar to that of the Washington Metro trains.

There are actually subway fan clubs throughout the U.S. The New York group is one of the best known.

I know how you feel. You think it's bad now? I remember as a kid wondering why my dad bought me trainsets that were all freight, even though he knew I liked passenger trains. Reason? Virtually no passenger train sets for sale back in 1969. We do have it a lot better today. When I ran my O and later S scale freight trains, I always pretended that they were subway trains I rode with my parents! ( Oh, the mind of a 6 year old [:o)] )

Some years back Walthers produced the Washington Metro subway cars. They pop up on Ebay at times in good condition. Athearn has those beautiful double decker commuter train cars used in California.

Can you tell us what is it specifically you wi***o model?

[trainboyH16-44]

BTW, with the Calgary LRT, I am happy with either kind of train, there are 2 kinds that they run. How's that for variety! Older SD160s and newer siemens models. But I'd much rather go railfanning by the CP line, they are bigger, louder, cooler looking, and they make the earth tremble for miles!
Matthew

[Anonymous]

I grew up in St. Louis and currently live in the Kansas City metro. Both are consdiered major metropolitan areas and I have yet to see a subway in either. St. Louis now has the Metrolink, but that's a recent thing. The trains I have watched for the last thirty years have hauled freight, mostly grain, and that's what I like to capture in the basement. From time to time I operate on a layout that features freight AND passenger trains from the late 40s and early 50s and I must say, passenger operation is fun as well. It tends to take more space and provides less variety, however.

I wish you the best in your search for those things you wi***o model. Please share any new developments with us on these forums.

Cheers,

[dehusman]

Compared to the rest of the country, the ridership on subways and commuter trains is relatively small. More people see freight trains every day than see commuter trains and subways. Subways are particularly hard to model since you really can't see them unless you are on them. Commuter lines and subways also tend to be considered "boring" since you tend to have a very limited variety of cars and engines and the trains rarely do "switching". If you are into being a tower operator, there can be some really cool activity.

When I was in college in Phillie there was a guy who built a 1 1/2" scale model of a subway-elevated car and built about 30 ft of "El" out of aluminum channel for it to run on.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Interestingly there are a few subway models. Lifelike Proto have a New York 4-car set. If you like the idea of adding overseas visitors a company named EFE has London Underground "tube" trains as unpowered 4-car sets (easily motorised using a Tenshodo "SPUD" power truck).

[CNJ831]

Actual interest in modern commuter-rail operations is so vanishingly small it could never hope to be of major interest to the big manufacturers, who are looking to sell thousands of whatever model they produce. For this reason, one sees just a few cottage industies offering small-run resin kits for subway and associated models. While we have recently seen Athearn offer the West Coast bi-level cars, based on the hobby's history, any manufacturer who has actually offered a modern subway or commuter model has not been willing to quickly followed it up with another. The interest/money just isn't there to justify it.

CNJ831

[cacole]

Other than at a station, subways are not visible, so what would you model? Only a couple of stations with everything else out of sight in tunnels? How would you get to it in case of a derailment? Most subways are electric, so you are now getting into the need to string and maintain very expensive and temperamental catenary. There are probably many other reasons, but these are the most obvious to me.

As an April Fool's joke a couple of years ago, Model Railroader had an article about modeling a subway. A piece of PVC water pipe, a manhole cover, and a small fan that periodically blew dirt up through the cover as a train passed underground. What more would there be to see?

[Paul3]

One of the problems with modeling a subway is that most of it is underground. How do you model that? However, Life-Like does make NYC subway cars and has released a second run, so someone out there is buying them.

As far as modern commuter rail, one issue has always been the unique equipment that each authority used. For example, the MBTA's Kawasaki cars are used only by the MBTA, the Long Island double deckers are used only by LIRR, and the Chicago gallery cars are used only in Chicago.

However, when ever there's been any kind of overlap in equipment, it usually gets made. The Walthers Bombardier cars are a prime example, and so are the aforementioned Athearn double deckers.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Other than at a station, subways are not visible, so what would you model? Only a couple of stations with everything else out of sight in tunnels? How would you get to it in case of a derailment? Most subways are electric, so you are now getting into the need to string and maintain very expensive and temperamental catenary. What more would there be to see?

In fact, I have seen a couple of HO subway layouts at model traction shows. These arrangements had the subterranean tracks running along the layout's extreme outer edge behind plexi so the detailed tunnels were exposed to the viewer, with the tunnel roof and far sidewall being actually modeled. These guys built full urban scenes at the streetlevel above, complete with station entrances. I admit that they were impressive but really were more of a diorama than what we typically consider as a model railroad layout because very little trackage was actually modeled.

Incidentally, most subways operate with third rail, not catenary.

CNJ831

[Ibflattop]

Its easy to model a Subway! All ya have to do is build a City and ya say ya got a Subway running beneath your model city!!!! Kevin

[John Busby]

Hi all
The answer is actually quite simple
The senior modeller wants the trains of his youth and memory namely steam
The middle aged modeler wants the trains of his youth and memory
namely the end of the steam era the beginning of the diesel era.
The younger adult modeler wants the trains of his youth and memory
early and 2nd generation diesels
The junior and teenage modeller wants the trains he sees every day
however the last two cannot afford to buy enough to make it worth the
manufacturers making them.
When they become young adults and can afford to buy the trains then they will be manufactured
And to put it bluntly subway or tube trains depending on where your from are boring
or a specialty field take your pick so are of very limited supply so if you want them
you will have to hunt for them or scratch build them.
regards John

[Anonymous]

I don't see subways on a daily basis. In fact I've only seen them a few times when I've visited cities with them. So I personally have zero interest in subways.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Transit modeling is not as popular for a variety of reasons. First, they require large layouts -- club size or basement empire -- to do right. Unlike long distance trains, commuter or transit require several stops before reaching the hub. To model this correctly you not only need a long mainline but several penninsulas or curves to create entirely different scenes. This sort of selective compression is necessary if you don't want to give the impression that the train is stopping every two blocks. Even a long, straight stretch along a basement wall would be insufficient.

In the 2006 issue of Great Model Railroads there is a Conrail basement empire that also features New Jersey trainsit commuter operations. It is one of the better layouts I've seen that features commuter operations. However, he did have to employ a great deal of selective compression.

[Anonymous]

Well at least for those of us in Toronto their is no problem getting Go-Train models!

Modelling an interchange between a sub-way and an above ground railway would be fun if you put a cut-away subway station ont he edge of the layout somewhere.

John

[Billba]

Ira G, [#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]
Welcome to the forums, there are some very knowledgable and helpful people here.

I think John Busby hit on a very good reason for the mix of items available. [^][^] I live on the CSX line between Detroit and Flint, Michigan(it's literally in my back yard). I do not see any passenger traffic at all, unless it is an occasional excursion.

I've seen some models of subways built into the edges of layouts. These were very impressive, and worth a look. [:0][:0]

Search the magazine index on the Trains.com website, and you can find an index of listings of articles on subways, interurbans, and commuter lines. I get most of my older copies of magazines from local train shows after making a list from the index.

[trainfan1221]

Actually, in smaller scales, there is little commuter stuff available. Most of the trains I see are NJTransit trains, and they do have a variety. I think they would be good to model as part of a larger thing, with models of other trains, freight etc. I have nscale and there is little to work with in that area. Subways are unique in the modeling world, I have seen models and they are pretty neat, but more of a gimmick at this time. Incidentally,lbflattop, I like that answer.

[MisterBeasley]

I have a subway, using both the Lifelike R-17 cars and a Bowser PCC car. Yes, there are problems modelling something you can't see, but I've got my stations on the edge of the board for visibility, and I put a camera in the lead car to see the tunnels, which I did with scenery just for that purpose.

[ira_g]

From everyone's input, I am seeing several angles which I hadn't seen before. My thought process was that if model train manufacturers built subway or commuter cars in mass (so that they could be bought in the $20-$30 range, rather than the $300-$400 which many seem to be at) then there would be a demand out there for them. Afterall, if toy car manufacturers can produce relatively realistic looking cars for under $25, it should be possible to built a realistic looking HO model train and sell it for around the same price.

Of course, this leads to the classic question as to which came first, that there is little affordable supply because there is little demand, or there is little demand because there is little affordable supply.

Perhaps the answer to this is similar to the entire Model Railroading industry as a whole, in that the only places you can now find model trains is in Hobby Stores or specialty stores online, rather than in toy stores or major department stores as they were 20+ years ago. Perhaps it could just be that there is declining interest in the hobby by kids today, or perhaps the hobby isn't as affordable as it once was.

Just as a thought, perhaps the best way to "re-energize" model railroading as a whole might be for the industry to go back to the "toy" origins which kindled the interest in most of us as small children. (I know so many people who had "toy" Lionel O Gauge sets when they were kids, and this led to them building a huge layout in their basement when they were older.) I know that this may sound heretical to most avid model railroaders, but perhaps the best way to re-energize the hobby for the kids today would be to have more ready-to-run trains & pre-built layouts for sale. [Even, do I dare say, have "Thomas" based HO & O sets to get small kids hooked on model railroading.] Today's kids are used to the instant gratification of X-Box's, Playstations, etc., and don't have the patience to built kits & layouts as was the case before 20 years ago. Additionally, many adults seem not have the available leisure time available for the hobby today as they once may have I had. I hope I'm not opening a can of worms by saying these things, but perhaps they need to be said.

[By the way.....going back to main subject, when I mentioned subway cars in my original post, I meant in regards to doing model layouts of portions of a subway system which are above ground, such as they are in the outlying areas of most cities, including NYC & Chicago.]

I.G.

[jondrd]

ira_g
Unlike the movie "A Field of Dreams" with Kevin Kostner(K? or C?) the manufacturers listen to their marketing people. With all the current competition(new,newer,newest models and technology) they most likely want some assurance that the investment made is going to be reflected in sales consummated.
How to break the log jam re subway model offerings? Write the mfrs and let them know there are untapped consumer dollars out there. If the demand is large enough they will come(not unlike Kostner's ball players).
To us model railroading is a passion, to them it's a business with perhaps a dollop of passion.

Jon

[StillGrande]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfan1221

Actually, in smaller scales, there is little commuter stuff available.

That is the funniest pun I have read in months!!!

[DSchmitt]

Commuter and subway cars are available and quite popular in O Gauge (3-rail).

This may be because O Gaugers tend to be train runners, the 2-rail people, especially in the smaller scales, generally aspire to be operators

[Anonymous]

Not that big a fan of subways but I do enjoy commuter lines like METRA, Metrolink and GO Transit.

[on30francisco]

Several years ago, Walthers offered HO models of BART, Caltrain, and the San Francisco MUNI Metro cars. Whether or not these are still in production I don't know but you can probably find them used. I think Bachmann still offers an HO model of the SF cable cars.

[jsoderq]

The big thing no one has pointed out is that subways are peculiar to one city which makes for a market so small as to be non existant. The commuter lies are also from a very narrow geographic area so the potential for sales just doesn't exist. It will be interesting to see what happens to the lifelike subway cars, but I'd bet they will drop out of production due to lack of salers.