Why Aren't There More Models of the Trains That Most People See on a Daily Basis?

[Anonymous]

By the way lifelike proto carrry's a subway & Athrean Genisis already makes commuter trains including the F-40, FP-40, & the amtrak genisis

[Anonymous]

People want something powerful & good looking as well as another world in model railroading, not another copy of the real world( not that !) they see everyday on their way to work ( as far as routine goes)

Ps.[#welcome]WELCOME to the forums[#welcome]

[Jetrock]

Trolleys are making a comeback--partially due to the re-emergence of public transit in medium-sized cities, as well as the resurgence of "historic" trolley lines, many of which feature reproduction rather than actual historic trolley cars! As a trolley/interurban modeler (part of the time) I will agree that there is a shortage of trolley models these days, but there are some out there--mostly of the specialty/craftsman variety. But Bowser still does several trolley models, as does Bachmann, which are very cheap and actually pretty good runners, even if the detail isn't fabulous--but hey, for $25 brand spanking new i'll take it...

[jrbernier]

ira_g,

Unless you are located in a large urban area with mass transit, you just do not see the items you mention. Most of the folks are in out state areas or on the 'fringe' of metro areas(suburbs), and what they see are large modern freight trains.

Case in point:

20 years ago I moved from the Mpls/St Paul metro area to an 'out state' area. While in the 'cities', I saw a lot of models of BN and predessor roads, and Amtrak models.
In southern Minnesota/northern Iowa it seemed everyone was modeling really beat up/dirty C&NW stuff. Looking out the window - Thats what the modelers saw! Right now our club see a lot of BNSF/UP models. We have one guy who loves Rock Island, another with a lot of C&NW(and UP), and another gentleman who loves passenger trains from the 50's/60's(pre-Amtrak). The rest of the group buys/operates what they see when they go 'trackside'. Also 20-30 years ago, there were a number of HO 'Trolley' modelers and there were nice brass imports and craftsman type kits - not a lot of 'trolley' stuff anymore(maybe because it is so hard to find an operating prototype?).
I was surprised that Life-Like did the subway cars(and they picked a car that will have interest in the NYC area). Athearn/Kato/Walthers all have done nice 'bi-level' commuter cars, so I do not think the area is left wanting too badly.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Because manufactuers make the most popular models. They sell best. They always will.

[jecorbett]

I guess it goes back to the reasons people get into this hobby and for a lot of us, it is because it takes us back to our youth. For myself and a lot of other baby boomers, that means the 1950s. That was a time when a toy train was a cherished Christmas present and long distance train travel was not an oddity. I grew up in Omaha and I vaguely remember riding a streetcar down 40th street but the streetcars got replaced in the mid 1950s. One of my fondest memories was a Christmas train trip we took to Chicago via the Burlington in the late 1950s and it had the added bonus of a side trip to Milwaukee via the North Shore. I still remember coming into Milwaukee on the city streets and having our train stop for a traffic light. For most people riding commuter trains is a daily occurance, not an exciting event so the memories may not be as warm as that train trip was for me. I'm sure there are some who lived in outlying areas who rode those trains into big cities only on special occasions and might view those types of trains differently. A lot of modelers include commuter trains on their layouts but very few make it their main theme.

[dehusman]

Actually in the 1940's and 50's there was probably 100 times more commuter and "rapid transit" than we have now. Every city of any size had local train service and most major cities and quite a few smaller ones had some sort of trolley system.

The root premise of the question is wrong. That just because people ride on subways or a commuter line they will want to model them. That is flawed on two accounts. First that mass transit is common and the way most people interact with trains. The way most of the population interacts with trains is sitting at a grade crossing watching a freight train roar by.
Second that people model what is common. If that were true, then the most common RC planes would be DC-9's, 727's and 737's. The RC car industry would be dominated by models of buses or four door sedans and mini-vans. But they are not. They are dominated by fighter planes that few have ever seen fly in person, let alone flown in. And RC cars are dominated by race cars or dune buggies.

People model what they think a railroad is, what image they see in their head when they close their eyes and think of the word railroad, not necessarily what they came in contact with. Model railroading is a hobby, an escape. People don't model what is, for them drudgery, an everyday part of work. People model to escape. They model what makes and impression on them. What you ride to work each day doesn't make an impression.

Dave H.

[IRONROOSTER]

I like most here, have no interest in subway/rapid transit. Also, the transition era is the most popular one to model and predates many of todays subways/rapid transits. Many (most?) of the rest have different equipment today than they had in the 40's/50's.
Enjoy
Paul

[Jetrock]

Traction modeling is a subset of model railroading. It has always been a minority, just because most people, including most who ride subways, el, light rail or streetcars, don't really think of them as "trains" the same way we think of a diesel or steam engine pulling passenger or freight cars.

Ask ANY three year old in north America what a train sounds like--they will all go "CHOO CHOO!" even though no trains going "choo-choo" have operated in regular service in this country for nearly half a century. The trains that spur the imagination tend to be the above-ground kind.

That being said, there are trolley layouts--and despite what an earlier poster said, they can be VERY small. Trolley/streetcar equipment can handle very sharp curves, as narrow as 5-6" in HO--which means you can feasibly have a very nice HO scale streetcar layout on a 2'x4' board!

[jsoderq]

The big thing no one has pointed out is that subways are peculiar to one city which makes for a market so small as to be non existant. The commuter lies are also from a very narrow geographic area so the potential for sales just doesn't exist. It will be interesting to see what happens to the lifelike subway cars, but I'd bet they will drop out of production due to lack of salers.

[on30francisco]

Several years ago, Walthers offered HO models of BART, Caltrain, and the San Francisco MUNI Metro cars. Whether or not these are still in production I don't know but you can probably find them used. I think Bachmann still offers an HO model of the SF cable cars.

[Anonymous]

Not that big a fan of subways but I do enjoy commuter lines like METRA, Metrolink and GO Transit.

[DSchmitt]

Commuter and subway cars are available and quite popular in O Gauge (3-rail).

This may be because O Gaugers tend to be train runners, the 2-rail people, especially in the smaller scales, generally aspire to be operators

[StillGrande]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfan1221

Actually, in smaller scales, there is little commuter stuff available.

That is the funniest pun I have read in months!!!

[jondrd]

ira_g
Unlike the movie "A Field of Dreams" with Kevin Kostner(K? or C?) the manufacturers listen to their marketing people. With all the current competition(new,newer,newest models and technology) they most likely want some assurance that the investment made is going to be reflected in sales consummated.
How to break the log jam re subway model offerings? Write the mfrs and let them know there are untapped consumer dollars out there. If the demand is large enough they will come(not unlike Kostner's ball players).
To us model railroading is a passion, to them it's a business with perhaps a dollop of passion.

Jon

[ira_g]

From everyone's input, I am seeing several angles which I hadn't seen before. My thought process was that if model train manufacturers built subway or commuter cars in mass (so that they could be bought in the $20-$30 range, rather than the $300-$400 which many seem to be at) then there would be a demand out there for them. Afterall, if toy car manufacturers can produce relatively realistic looking cars for under $25, it should be possible to built a realistic looking HO model train and sell it for around the same price.

Of course, this leads to the classic question as to which came first, that there is little affordable supply because there is little demand, or there is little demand because there is little affordable supply.

Perhaps the answer to this is similar to the entire Model Railroading industry as a whole, in that the only places you can now find model trains is in Hobby Stores or specialty stores online, rather than in toy stores or major department stores as they were 20+ years ago. Perhaps it could just be that there is declining interest in the hobby by kids today, or perhaps the hobby isn't as affordable as it once was.

Just as a thought, perhaps the best way to "re-energize" model railroading as a whole might be for the industry to go back to the "toy" origins which kindled the interest in most of us as small children. (I know so many people who had "toy" Lionel O Gauge sets when they were kids, and this led to them building a huge layout in their basement when they were older.) I know that this may sound heretical to most avid model railroaders, but perhaps the best way to re-energize the hobby for the kids today would be to have more ready-to-run trains & pre-built layouts for sale. [Even, do I dare say, have "Thomas" based HO & O sets to get small kids hooked on model railroading.] Today's kids are used to the instant gratification of X-Box's, Playstations, etc., and don't have the patience to built kits & layouts as was the case before 20 years ago. Additionally, many adults seem not have the available leisure time available for the hobby today as they once may have I had. I hope I'm not opening a can of worms by saying these things, but perhaps they need to be said.

[By the way.....going back to main subject, when I mentioned subway cars in my original post, I meant in regards to doing model layouts of portions of a subway system which are above ground, such as they are in the outlying areas of most cities, including NYC & Chicago.]

I.G.

[MisterBeasley]

I have a subway, using both the Lifelike R-17 cars and a Bowser PCC car. Yes, there are problems modelling something you can't see, but I've got my stations on the edge of the board for visibility, and I put a camera in the lead car to see the tunnels, which I did with scenery just for that purpose.

[trainfan1221]

Actually, in smaller scales, there is little commuter stuff available. Most of the trains I see are NJTransit trains, and they do have a variety. I think they would be good to model as part of a larger thing, with models of other trains, freight etc. I have nscale and there is little to work with in that area. Subways are unique in the modeling world, I have seen models and they are pretty neat, but more of a gimmick at this time. Incidentally,lbflattop, I like that answer.

[Billba]

Ira G, [#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]
Welcome to the forums, there are some very knowledgable and helpful people here.

I think John Busby hit on a very good reason for the mix of items available. [^][^] I live on the CSX line between Detroit and Flint, Michigan(it's literally in my back yard). I do not see any passenger traffic at all, unless it is an occasional excursion.

I've seen some models of subways built into the edges of layouts. These were very impressive, and worth a look. [:0][:0]

Search the magazine index on the Trains.com website, and you can find an index of listings of articles on subways, interurbans, and commuter lines. I get most of my older copies of magazines from local train shows after making a list from the index.

[Anonymous]

Well at least for those of us in Toronto their is no problem getting Go-Train models!

Modelling an interchange between a sub-way and an above ground railway would be fun if you put a cut-away subway station ont he edge of the layout somewhere.

John

[Anonymous]

Transit modeling is not as popular for a variety of reasons. First, they require large layouts -- club size or basement empire -- to do right. Unlike long distance trains, commuter or transit require several stops before reaching the hub. To model this correctly you not only need a long mainline but several penninsulas or curves to create entirely different scenes. This sort of selective compression is necessary if you don't want to give the impression that the train is stopping every two blocks. Even a long, straight stretch along a basement wall would be insufficient.

In the 2006 issue of Great Model Railroads there is a Conrail basement empire that also features New Jersey trainsit commuter operations. It is one of the better layouts I've seen that features commuter operations. However, he did have to employ a great deal of selective compression.

[Anonymous]

I don't see subways on a daily basis. In fact I've only seen them a few times when I've visited cities with them. So I personally have zero interest in subways.

Bob Boudreau

[John Busby]

Hi all
The answer is actually quite simple
The senior modeller wants the trains of his youth and memory namely steam
The middle aged modeler wants the trains of his youth and memory
namely the end of the steam era the beginning of the diesel era.
The younger adult modeler wants the trains of his youth and memory
early and 2nd generation diesels
The junior and teenage modeller wants the trains he sees every day
however the last two cannot afford to buy enough to make it worth the
manufacturers making them.
When they become young adults and can afford to buy the trains then they will be manufactured
And to put it bluntly subway or tube trains depending on where your from are boring
or a specialty field take your pick so are of very limited supply so if you want them
you will have to hunt for them or scratch build them.
regards John

[Ibflattop]

Its easy to model a Subway! All ya have to do is build a City and ya say ya got a Subway running beneath your model city!!!! Kevin

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

Other than at a station, subways are not visible, so what would you model? Only a couple of stations with everything else out of sight in tunnels? How would you get to it in case of a derailment? Most subways are electric, so you are now getting into the need to string and maintain very expensive and temperamental catenary. What more would there be to see?

In fact, I have seen a couple of HO subway layouts at model traction shows. These arrangements had the subterranean tracks running along the layout's extreme outer edge behind plexi so the detailed tunnels were exposed to the viewer, with the tunnel roof and far sidewall being actually modeled. These guys built full urban scenes at the streetlevel above, complete with station entrances. I admit that they were impressive but really were more of a diorama than what we typically consider as a model railroad layout because very little trackage was actually modeled.

Incidentally, most subways operate with third rail, not catenary.

CNJ831

[Paul3]

One of the problems with modeling a subway is that most of it is underground. How do you model that? However, Life-Like does make NYC subway cars and has released a second run, so someone out there is buying them.

As far as modern commuter rail, one issue has always been the unique equipment that each authority used. For example, the MBTA's Kawasaki cars are used only by the MBTA, the Long Island double deckers are used only by LIRR, and the Chicago gallery cars are used only in Chicago.

However, when ever there's been any kind of overlap in equipment, it usually gets made. The Walthers Bombardier cars are a prime example, and so are the aforementioned Athearn double deckers.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[cacole]

Other than at a station, subways are not visible, so what would you model? Only a couple of stations with everything else out of sight in tunnels? How would you get to it in case of a derailment? Most subways are electric, so you are now getting into the need to string and maintain very expensive and temperamental catenary. There are probably many other reasons, but these are the most obvious to me.

As an April Fool's joke a couple of years ago, Model Railroader had an article about modeling a subway. A piece of PVC water pipe, a manhole cover, and a small fan that periodically blew dirt up through the cover as a train passed underground. What more would there be to see?

[CNJ831]

Actual interest in modern commuter-rail operations is so vanishingly small it could never hope to be of major interest to the big manufacturers, who are looking to sell thousands of whatever model they produce. For this reason, one sees just a few cottage industies offering small-run resin kits for subway and associated models. While we have recently seen Athearn offer the West Coast bi-level cars, based on the hobby's history, any manufacturer who has actually offered a modern subway or commuter model has not been willing to quickly followed it up with another. The interest/money just isn't there to justify it.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Interestingly there are a few subway models. Lifelike Proto have a New York 4-car set. If you like the idea of adding overseas visitors a company named EFE has London Underground "tube" trains as unpowered 4-car sets (easily motorised using a Tenshodo "SPUD" power truck).