LHS Wake Up Call

[chateauricher]

This passed summer, I was looking for a particular type and size of bridge. I searched the Internet and found 3 suppliers (including Walthers) who offered it at more or less the same price (the difference between the most and least expensive was less than $5 USD).

So, I asked my LHS if they could order it and how much they would charge. I figured, if the LHS could get it for the same price, I'd order through them and support a local business.

I'll admit : the online prices were much lower than what the LHS could offer. So ordering online seemed like a great deal. UNTIL I realised that most, if not all of whatever I would save would be eaten up by the currency exchange, shipping costs, customs duties and taxes. So, in the end, I wasn't going to be saving very much, if anything at all.

I ended up by ordering through my LHS. The extra money I spent there was well worth all the free advice and help they have been quite gladly offering me (and other customers). They never seem to have a problem spending hours (and I do mean hours) discussing layout designs, products and techniques -- even allowing me into the worskhop behind the store to see how things are built, and to demonstrate some products. I've even been shown the owner's and operating manuals for a number of DCC systems so I can learn about them before I buy. They even offer their customers free installation of any updates issued for Atlas Commander or Bachman EasyDCC. One of the owners knows I like Algoma Central so she found a loco and some decals for me without knowing if I would buy them. Of course I couldn't resist. [8)]

Since they have been very helpful and supportive of their customers, I have no problem paying a bit more in order to help ensure they will still be there tomorrow (next week, or next month) as an invaluable resource upon which I can depend. It is my intent to buy as much of what I need for my new layout through my LHS for as long as they are willing to offer me such great support.

[cacole]

jwareing,

I live in Sierra Vista, 70 miles south-east of Tucson, and used to go to Tucson Hobby Shop, too, until I discovered The Hobby Place in Ace Hardware on East 22nd Street. Near the end, Tucson Hobby must have been taken over by someone new because they actually became friendly and helpful -- but by then it was too late because they had driven all of their customers away. Even their going out of business prices were too high.

We have a hobby shop (?) in Sierra Vista, and I use that term very loosely because the owner's wife operates her dolls and collectables business out of the same small building, and the husband knows absolutely nothing about trains. His prices are almost double MSRP on some items because he has no established account with any major distributor, and has to order from another retailer. I can drive the 70 miles to Tucson and still save money over the prices that he is asking.

I used to travel all the way to Trains and Treasures in Arizona City, but they folded up a couple of months ago. They had a very good selection of merchandise to choose from, which made the extra miles worthwhile.

I remember when there were five hobby shops in Tucson that sold trains -- now there's only The Hobby Place.

[jwareing]

Good heavens!! Do you not know about Arizona Trains? Or have they gone out of business and I missed the going out of business sale? They also do an enormous mail order business in Lionel, for those of you who care about that.

[Rotorranch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CapnAmerica

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,I freely admit that I stop using full price hobby shops long time ago except in some extreme cases..To my mind there are to many shops offering discounts and of course the super discounts found on line.I stop playing the e-bay game as many of the so called deals can be beaten by shopping on line and not to mention the ridiculous bidding.
I suspect if the truth was known NONE OF US will rush out and pay $99.95 for a engine we know we can get for less else where-in most cases for $64.95.
I know we need our local hobby shops but,THE OWNER MUST REALIZED WE ARE NOT TO BLAME DUE TO HIGH MSRP WE MUST SHOP ELSE WHERE FOR THE BEST DEAL FOR OUR LIMITED HOBBY DOLLARS! The owner should give discounts and setup a on line store to compliment his local customer base if he/she wishes to survive..

MR.HOBBY SHOP OWNER,Your store's future is IN YOUR HANDS..Whatcha goin' to do? Are you going to sink or swim? Its YOUR call!

Actually your access to an LHS is in your hands! The LHS owner can close his shop and get a real job with a better income.

As each LHS closes, you will find it increasingly expensive and frustrating to obtain small items in a hurry. Imagine, needing a small package of very small brass screws or a pack of code 83 rail joiners and discovering that you will have to mail order them. It may be that you will find out just how much you need an LHS.

In addition, the number of newcomers to model railroading will continue to dwindle. If model railroading is out of sight, then it is also out of mind. LHSs promote model railroading. Their disappearance reduces the promotion of model railroading.

To carry this discussion further, manufacturers depend on sales volume in order to develop and produce products profitably. As the numbers of model railroaders diminishes, the ability of manufacturers to maintain profitability diminishes as well. It may be that Life-Like may have seen that their model railroading division was not as profitable as their other endeavors and decided to get out of the model railroading business. You have to ask yourself, if model railroading is so profitable, why would the corporate leaders of Athearn and Model Die Casting (Roundhouse) sell out?

One of the concerns of some hobby product manufacturers is producing the product and getting it out of the storage facilities and into dealers hands. Manufactures do not want to sit on inventory. They want to make the product, ship it, and be paid for it within a very short period of time (if not in advance of shipping). Hobby distributors typically buy large amounts of product and resell it to LHS's in much smaller quantities. Distributors hold a great deal of product in the warehouses all the while waiting for LHS to take products off their hands and pay them for it. When the LHS's begin to sell less product, then the distribution channel begins to choke with product resulting in revenue starvation for distributors and manufactuers alike.

The online world recirculates old product and some new product with much lower revenues. New product volumes are limited to online buyers as the remainder of the distribution channel is not buying and holding as much product.

If the current trend continues, you, the consumer, are going to lose out. There's going to be lots whining and complaining about not being able to get certain locomotives or rolling stock. When manufacturers suck it up and become more fiscally responsible, somethin's got to give and most likely that will mean less new product tooling. You will also see far more short runs of locomotives. Short production runs means that the manufacturer's warehouse clears out quickly allowing him to make more product from old tooling. If you look at the plastic model business you can this happening.

Pretty soon, online dealers will begin to see less competition from LHS's. They will very likely realize that they are leaving money on the the table. They will respond by aggresively "buying out" the manufacturers short product runs and increasing online prices because the know they have the product and you cannot find it anywhere else. INHO we are probably looking at a timeline of 5 years for this to happen.

You just don't realize how much you need your LHS!

Exactly, Cap'n! Thank you!

Rotor

[Anonymous]

If I were to start a hobby shop, it would be an online discount shop, but with a storefront. Basically people could come in and browse in the store and the warehouse would be in back. That way local people could get what they needed cheap and fast along with service, and everyone else could buy from me on the internet.

[Anonymous]

There is a really nice LTS in northern New Jersey I know. Its been there for ever ......

http://www.themodelrailroadshop.com/history.htm

Really, really nice people. And the store is jammed full with everything little thing you could ask for. Warm and fuzzy.

He cut out a small article from an old MR (pre internet days) and taped up on the wall. The article told how many of us go to the LTS to get all the little stuff ........scratchbuilding supplies, cheap kits, etc etc. But when we want an engine (something that would give the owner a decent amount of profit), we go the mailorder route.

That article was decades old. The problem must be so much worse now for him.

I've been guilty of not buying stuff from him because of the time involved. Its just so darn easy to sit at this computer and instantly buy anything from anywhere in the world.

I would feel bad if he had to close his doors.

JIm

[BRAKIE]

Don asks:BRAKIE: I realize you have been in the hobby a long time, and don't need help, but - One question - If your next purchase had identical discount's / prices from mail order firm's, E Bay, or a LHS, - again, @ identical prices - WHERE would you buy?
=============================================================
Don,First the closest hobby shop is a 50 mile round trip and seeing gas here is $2.89.9 a gallon I would need to combine my trip and get more then one item.This would justify the trip.However,my doctor has me on a driving restriction so its mail order or hitch a ride with a friend.For me this would not work has I like to take my time and look over the store's stock and shoot the breeze with the owners and other customers...I consider a lot of these owners my friends and I do feel bad about mail ordering as I feel I am stabbing them in their back.Heck I known some of these yahoos since 1988.[:(]
BTW..Lately I been adding the smaller items that I would normally get at one of the local discount shops to my on line orders..
Don,I would order from some of the local discount hobby shops IF they would handle mail orders...Sadly most say they don't have the time to handle mail orders or don't want to get involved in the mail ordering business..
So,yeah if I was able I would shop locally-well not so local-after all prior to my heart attack I went hobby shop hopping every Saturday unless it snowed.[:D]

[Don Gibson]

BRAKIE:

... "the closest hobby shop is a 50 mile round trip ... my doctor has me on a driving restriction" ...

Say's it all Larry.

But you didn't answer the question raised...
IF your next purchase had identical discount's / price,etc. (including delivery), who would you buy from?

[csmith9474]

I have a good example of the virtue of a good LHS (Custom Railway Supply). I ordered some Cal Scale RPO steps (brass castings) through them and when I went to pick them up we noticed that one of the steps didn't form completely. The guy there said to open them up and took the suspect step to the back and soldered and filed until it was as good as new. The guys that run this place will not quit until you walk away with a smile. That just does not happen in the faceless and nameless world of internet hobby shops. I do realize that there are good deals in the world of ones and zeros, which I occasionally indulge in , but nothing beats face to face old fashioned customer service.

[Rotorranch]

A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

I want to add a few things here. I own a LHS, with slot cars, trains, R/C, plastics, etc. I've been in the hobby business for over 10 years now, 3 years in my own store, and 6 years working for one shop, then a couple years working part time at yet another.

The average discount from hobby distributors is 40%. That is a smaller markup than most any retail sales except for grocery stores!

Now add in shipping costs from the distributors. That adds at least 5% to my weekly orders. So we are now at 35%. Add COD fees, HAZ-MAT, etc, we are now at around 30%.

OK, out of that 30%, we have rent, utilities, repairs, etc. There goes the rest of the profits.

Many of the LHS's are lucky to break even!

After that, you have the Manufacturers, Distributors, and the Basement vendors selling the products direct to the customer, at discount...man, this is a tough way to go! I have seen distributors selling on their own web sites at LESS than I can buy from them! [V]

For the customer, the plus side. Any LHS worth it's salt can get you whatever you want. I order every week on Monday. ( My day off! ) My orders are here by Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday at the latest, depending on the distributor. That's as fast, or faster, then you will get it from most any mail order/internet site. And I don't charge you, the customer, for shipping!

Do I discount? You betchya! I have to to be competive!

There is a big difference between the general hobby, and the slot car industry. The general hobby distributors, ( ie trains, planes, R/C, etc, ) seem to sell to anyone who pays the bills. Hence the basement and garage businesses (?) that sell at discount to y'all. The slot car industry won't, with an exception or two, sell to anyone except a real brick and mortar storefront!

Now, what if you have a problem with your stuff? You gonna send it back to the basement bargain store for service? Ha,ha,ha,ha, he, he. [:(] Most of these places don't even have a clue as to what a model railroad is, let alone how to fix something! The adage is " Buy it on ePay, take it to ePay for service! ".

What I'm trying to get at is simply this...support the local hobby shop. They support you. They know who you are, and try to cater to you! Nobody can have everything in stock! Look at all the stuff the Big train stores advertise, but then backorder on ya. Give the local guys a chance. Keep the money in your own neighborhood. Give your LHS a chance. Try it, you'll like it!

Rotor

[Anonymous]

There is a certain amount of money I spend at the LHS. Usually it is replacement of analog motive power with those equippted with sound and DCC out of the box. I would sell the analog and other items on Ebay to offset the high prices on the new equiptment.

Prices are going up everywhere. The only response I have to that is to decide how best to spend what pocket money there is and where. The most bang for the buck is what will get the sale. At this time it is still the LHS.

I dont worry about who makes a profit on the sale. I rather see the owner of his LHS and his family earn the profit and be able to eat. That way the store will stay open and we will continue to enjoy it.

I have seen many stores close down over the years. I can never bring back those stores. But... the hobby lives on and I think as long as someone still loves trains and has a dollar to spend will find a way to get them.

[Anonymous]

The internet is what's killin um all.

[Anonymous]

my favourite train store/ hobby shop where i had no trouble buying anything i need for 0 scale/proto:48 got sold to some new guys. they are not interested in continuing to support my needs and are blowing out that merchandise because they don't understand it. for my mail order needs they suggest i order direct and not put them to the bother. i hope they do well; i won't be around to find out.

my nearest lhs doesn't carry much train stuff, but they will order anything i want plus give me a 10% break to boot. i buy a lot of my glue, screws, tools and stripwood there. they're into remote planes and cars and are likely to be around for awhile. i don't think they are depending on me to stay afloat.

sixty miles away is a real train store where i will buy between $80. & $140. worth of detail parts three times a year for my scratchbuilding projects. for some reason, if i am interested in a particular trainset they carry, they will tell me where it is cheaper and how much i can expect to pay if that is an issue. i don't think they are going under anytime soon.

fifty miles, in another direction, is the biggest trainstore around; and i swear they hate customers because they are not nice, friendly, or seem to care one bit. they seem to have a lot of customers though and don't appear to miss me when i'm not around.

ebay has been an interesting experience. between the good deals and the ripoffs, i am about even.

i will support my local hobby shop as much as they want me to. money comes and goes, but a good trainset will last a long time.

-rrick

[selector]

The customer is always right. The customer will always prefer, like water, to find the lowest point. Sometimes not, but most always. If I can get a strongly desired loco cheaper from source A, A gets my business.

I owe no loyalty to my LHS, nor to source A. My loyalty is to my bottom line, as She Who MUST Be Obeyed takes great pains to point out to me at every hobby purchasing opportunity. Mom and Pop, Walmart, Internet Choo-Choos, it's all the same to me.

Or, as a recently retired American President would say, "It't the trains, stupid."

[BRAKIE]

Don,Did you have your glasses off or did you miss this part on the bottom of my reply?? [;)]



So,yeah if I was able I would shop locally-well not so local-after all prior to my heart attack I went hobby shop hopping every Saturday unless it snowed.[:D]

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rotorranch
What I'm trying to get at is simply this...support the local hobby shop. They support you. They know who you are, and try to cater to you! Nobody can have everything in stock! Look at all the stuff the Big train stores advertise, but then backorder on ya. Give the local guys a chance. Keep the money in your own neighborhood. Give your LHS a chance. Try it, you'll like it!

I agree with you wholeheartedly; and do exactly what you say. I know I love my LHS.

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay
The internet is what's killin um all.

I could not disagree more.

It is those of us -- hobbists, model railroaders, etc. -- who choose to buy our supplies from Internet-based retailers who are killing the LHSs. Not the Internet-based retailers themselves.

We, as consumers in free-market societies, have the choice of where we spend our hard-earned money. No one is forcing us to spend it at any particular store. So, if our local shops start going bankrupt and go out of business, we have no one to blame but ourselves. If you want to keep your local retailers in business, you must support them.

[AntonioFP45]

Jwareing makes a good point.

I've visited various LHS stores over the years. If the owner or managers have a poor attitude or are not knowledgeable about what they're selling, I won't bother walking in the door again. Three years ago, I met a DCC vendor at a train show in Sarasota, Florida who was selling DCC equipment at a discount. He became incredibly pushy and obnoxious when I told him I was interested in Digitrax but he kept trying to shove NCE at me. I nodded my head, thanked him and walked away. He didn't realize that he lost out on the $100 bills that I had in my pocket to buy DCC equipment. I decided to wait til my friendly LHS started stocking DCC.

I know of one store in the next county where prices are above MSRP. Friendly owners that cater mostly to the toy train crowd. The only thing I may pick up when I'm in that store is a pack of P2K wheels.

Overall Guys, you've given some super responses. My issue has been with regards to "The good LHS's". Those are the ones that I suggest that we support.

[randyaj]

I agree 100%! I see too many people that use their local hobby shop like the local 7/11. If they need something quick, like ground foam or a switch they go there and are glad they are there with their doors open and their shelves stocked with what they need, but only buy the little items. LHS can not survive on small item purchases. Yes I buy some items from ebay and every once in a while from online, but I do the majority of my business from my hobby shop Hobby Haven. They are great, if an item is not correct, does not work properly, or is missing parts; will take it back no questions asked. They will order for me, and if they can give me a discount on orders. They answer my questions and have given me great tips for modeling, The only reason that I do some ordering elsewhere is that I model Great Northern and live in Iowa; which is not the most popular road to model here. Yes I pay more, but if I want them there when I need that Peco switch to finish a section of track, and not have to wait a couple weeks for it, then I need to support them so that they are there.
Regards
Randy

[MisterBeasley]

I went to the LHS a couple of days ago. This is a small shop, and I know where pretty much everything is, but when I checked my watch I'd been there over an hour. I'd been chatting with another customer and the owner about the sound installation going on at the workbench, and about which resistors to use with LEDs.

This forum puts me in touch with the global MR community, but the LHS introduces me to other local railroaders. I'm not a club guy at the moment, so the LHS is my only meeting place.

Of course, I'm lucky to have a great LHS close enough to home that I've actually gone there on a bicycle a couple of times, and the house and cars are all paid for, so money is less of a problem than it is for many of us. Still, I'll shop on the computer to find an out-of-production locomotive, or that really big bag of Kadee #5's, or just a great deal on some item that's MSRP in the shop. Most of the time, though, I like to take a pleasant drive to the next town north for my MR stuff. I model the 1960's, and somehow it's more fitting to do my shopping in that era, too.

[jacon12]

It's amazing, isn't it.
We all want great customer service and we b***h and complain when we don't get it. Yet, we want rock bottom prices also. Usually, and mind you I said 'usually', the two don't go together.
This year I've purchased one BLI steamer and one P2K E6 from my LHS. I also get all my track from them, not to mention couplers, wheel sets etc. I'm not adverse to online shopping, but I've learned you darned well better know what you're buying...... what's junk and what's not, who has good return policys and who doesn't.
I agree that the LHS is in trouble, but due to human nature, I don't know if they can be saved in the long run and that is a shame.
JaRRell

[rlandry6]

My LHS has had the same locos in the case ever since I've began buying there.. All priced ABOVE retail. I buy magazines, paint, pigments, etc there, but that's about it. If anyone has a really good reason why I should buy a LL Steam loco there for $250 instead of at BLW for $112, I'm all ears. Same with diesel.. $92 instead of $59, I don't think so...

[Anonymous]

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

Mythical Cheapest Prices? Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but if it's an indication that you think price is not a big factor - then I'd say you need to keep on researching. [:D]

Price is big. Inventory (selection) is big. Nice knowledgeable people (that are even happy when you only purchase a bag of ground foam) running the place is big. A clean, spacious, and organized store is a big plus too.

Another idea I had to draw in people is for the store to have its own large detailed layout. It would incorporate all the products they sell to demonstrate how nice they could look (or how well they work). I realize it would be a huge expense and a terribly inefficient use of retail space, but I’d bet it would get people in the store.

[skiloff]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

Simply put: I don't need the deep discount prices of online, but I also don't want MSRP. Even a 10-15% discount would be enough for me to buy exclusively at that store. The other thing that is important is when you don't have something in stock, at least get it to me within a couple weeks. Twice now I have ordered something from my LHS and it has taken 6-8 weeks. That is no incentive for me to order anything from you and kind of puts me off buying anything there. They are nice friendly people, but there has to be some service level, too.

[Anonymous]

Most lhs's carry enough stuff for there clients cash needs, it's too much a niche hobby now to carry everything made out there and who can tie up that mach cash in inventory. I like kits, branchline,red caboose.etc,but the next guy wants rtr, and then there's the guy looking for $5.00 freight cars. there's no winning. If he doesn't have it, but can get it in 10 days or so I'm happy and that's where I'll shop

[csmith9474]

My LHS gives me a standard 10-15% discount and maybe more depending on how bad they want to move the merchandise in question.

[Chris_S68]

When I was last into the hobby, there wasn't an internet to buy off of. I'd go to the hobby shops that had the best service and the most in stock.
Now that I'm back into the hobby, I still prefer to buy from a store, if I can. I like to physically examine an item before I purchase it, and I don't mind to pay a few bucks extra for cash and carry. The one closest to me has a new owner, and seems to be geared more toward the RC crowd with not much space dedicated to model railroading, but I've been buying a few cars from him here and there. I need to get back out to Elgin to check out the shop I used to frequent almost daily after work. That place always had a great inventory, including special runs - particularly CNW stuff. [:D]

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

There are two LHS's within 90 minutes drive from Comox for HO stuff. Both offer good service...they're GOOd people. I go there just to browse, to see what he has that's new, to check ( or more correctly, 'reality check') on prices (Walthers Indexed TT.....gulp!).

Lately, I have bought nothing. I browse, enjoy what I have seen and inspected, but I leave without a purchase. For one thing, I have already spent close to $1500 on loco, DCC, tracks, rolling stock, structure kits, and scenic stuff. But the prices are very steep, and rarely discounted.

So, to answer your question, I go to look and enjoy, but if I buy anthing listed over $30, I am inclined to check the internet first. To soften the cost of shipping, I'll order several things at the same time.

That said, I did purchase two 48' wooden passenger cars RTR (okay...okay!), and a Harriman combo car kit at the nearest LHS this past week. I have begun to support his op because he is closer...more local.

It is a struggle between opportunity, presentation, availability, and outright costs. I do also try to support local business when my wallet will permit....sort of like tipping is a way of life when eating out....you just do it cuz' it's right.

[Anonymous]

Why would I open a LHS? I'll do it because I like trains and the peeple.

What would bury me is the need to keep up with everything in the hobby. Not the small amount of profit.

[Rotorranch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Why would I open a LHS? I'll do it because I like trains and the peeple.

What would bury me is the need to keep up with everything in the hobby. Not the small amount of profit.

Highiron...If that's what you want to do, go for it!

Be forewarned...it's a lot of work! I go almost 24-7 all the time just trying to keep my store going! My store is closed one day a week, ( Moday is my weekend ) and I spend my "day off" placing orders, cleaning the store, cleaning the bathrooms, ( yeck!!!) paying the bills, etc....

My advice...be friendly! Greet eveeeryone that comes through the door! Be glad to see them! The walkins bring money! ( Some don't, but treat all walk ins like they are millionares! )

If you don't have it, get it! Be glad to order what ya don't have! Most folks understand you can't stock everythiing. There is no real reason you can't get something within a weeks time, unless your distributors don't have it in stock! There are many instances where the manufacturer falls behind. This will be blamed on the dealer, even if that's not the case!

Above all, treat the customer as though they are royalty! Remember, they are the folks who are really paying the bills!

Rotor