LHS Wake Up Call

[skiloff]

I'll drop you a line next time I'm ready to order, rotor, hopefully before Christmas. The wife is now looking for work, so my "discretionary" funds have dried up for now.

[AntonioFP45]

Cliff Powers,

Man, outstanding and very well thought out post!

[Rotorranch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by skiloff

Rotor, like Cliff said, I wish you were in my neighbourhood. Do you do mail order to Canada?

Sure...I'll ship anywhere!

Rotor

[skiloff]

Cliff, you said it all perfectly. As I've stated several times now, I don't want to go into my LHS and have to ORDER basic couplers or wheelsets. They should be there. And if you did happen to run out, waiting two months for them is unacceptable, especially when I hear that you've got an order in from your supplier after a month and my couplers still aren't in that order! But still, my LHS is mostly geared to the R/C crowd (the owner is an R/C plane guy) so trains aren't his main interest anyway (only about 15% of the store roughly).

Rotor, like Cliff said, I wish you were in my neighbourhood. Do you do mail order to Canada?

[maandg]

QUOTE:

Highiron...If that's what you want to do, go for it!

Be forewarned...it's a lot of work! I go almost 24-7 all the time just trying to keep my store going! My store is closed one day a week, ( Monday is my weekend ) and I spend my "day off" placing orders, cleaning the store, cleaning the bathrooms, ( yeck!!!) paying the bills, etc....

My advice...is friendly! Greet everyone that comes through the door! Be glad to see them! The walk-ins bring money! (Some don't, but treat all walk ins like they are millionaires!)

If you don't have it, get it! Be glad to order what ya don't have! Most folks understand you can't stock everything. There is no real reason you can't get something within a week’s time, unless your distributors don't have it in stock! There are many instances where the manufacturer falls behind. This will be blamed on the dealer, even if that's not the case!

Above all, treat the customer as though they are royalty! Remember, they are the folks who are really paying the bills!

Rotor

Wow Rotor - I wish you had a LHS in MY area.....you have crystallized EXACTLY the level of service that would keep me in your store. Unfortunately, the ones I have been in do not share your management style. I had started a thread a few weeks ago entitled "My Kingdom for a Decent Hobby Shop". Many of you responded, very eloquently, to my dilemma. If you guys will indulge me, I would like to quote some of my comments from that thread for the benefit of those who have not seen them. They really apply to this discussion. In closing, I will share an experience I had this morning while placing a phone order which epitomizes the key for making ANY LHS a HUGE success!!! But my earlier observations first........

Although I have been teaching for the past 7 years, I previously spent many, many years in retail management. Based on my experience both as a customer in countless hobby shops (in Mississippi, Texas, Virginia, Maryland, Florida, Louisiana and Alabama) and working for several large national retail "mall stores", I am amazed at how little most hobby shop owners know about managing a successful retail business. The overwhelming majority of hobby shops I've patronized suffer from the same problems which can each be traced back to poor management. They include............

1. Location of the store. Unfortunately, all too many hobby shops seem to be located on the "wrong side of the tracks" (no pun intended). If I have to worry that my car will be gone when I come out of the store, how often do you think I'll be taking that risk? A good example is the now defunct Bobbye Hall's in Dallas. It was a great train store. But if the business has to resort to installing razor wire on the roof top, I think I'll make my purchases online from the safety of my home. True, the rent may be much less in these crime-infested neighborhoods, but at what cost to business?

2. Attractiveness of the store. Almost every hobby shop I have ever shopped in was dirty, poorly lit, messy, cluttered and disorganized. Are there no owners who have the slightest clue about visual merchandising???? The popular approach seems to be "pile the newer stuff on top of the older stuff". Is the store "shopper friendly"? If you have to ask "Do you have any....." more than once, the store has not been thoughtfully laid out. Most store owners are content to just shove something new anywhere, rather than re-display an overgrown area of the store attractively. One store outside of Dallas, Discount Model Trains, was the most well executed train store I have ever seen. All rolling stock was arranged by road name and then car type. If you wanted an SP 50' flat and T&NO 40' boxcar, they were displayed in the SP section. The wall of super detail parts was particularly well organized. Needless to say, I dropped a good chunk of change in their store.

3. Store Environment. Is the store's thermostat set for the customer's comfort or the owner's wallet? Does it reek of cigarette smoke? When I lived in Northern Virginia, I used to shop at the Rip Track (also now closed). Dear God, it was like sitting in an a***ray. I believe I shaved two years off of my life every time I went in the place. Any item I purchased had to stay out in the garage to be "decontaminated" because it smelled so bad. Also, the owner had the mouth of a drunken sailor! His wife worked in the store with him, and he would constantly cuss her like a rented mule. Yeah, that's the kind of place I want to take my four-year old to shop. Sadly, vulgarity has been used in my presence in MANY hobby shops.

4. Inventory Levels. Is the Plastruct display in the store STILL out of clapboard siding after a year? For six months have you been looking for Woodland Scenics conifer green course turf? Is the Floquil Reefer White so old it has petrified in the bottom of the bottle? You should not drive all the way across town (or further!) to hear "I'm out of Kadee #5's" or "I just sold my last can of Dull Coat this morning". The "bread and butter" items of the hobby should be ordered in appropriate "rainy day" quantities.

5. What's New? This is my single biggest gripe and one that has lost my local hobby shops literally thousands of dollars from me alone. I can't tell you how many times I have entered a train store with $50 burning a hole in my pocket only to leave with the same 50 bucks. If something has not sold in a year GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mark it down, put it on a clearance table, and get it out of the store. Hobby shop owners are so afraid of not getting the full profit margin out of an item, they will literally hang on to it until it has mummified. How many times have I left a hobby shop empty-handed mumbling under my breath, "Same Old #%*!" ??? Once your clientele realizes there is never anything new to see, you might as well lock up and call it quits. One of our former hobby shops in Jackson, MS was so stagnant that I would move things around myself just to see if they were still in that spot a year later. When the owner closed the store, he claimed there was no market for trains. However, when he marked everything down 50%, the shelves were bare in three weeks. Obviously, the market was there - he was just clueless about how to run the business. How many other hobby shops have become fallen flags for the same reason?

Bottom line - I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to hobby shops. Discounts are nice, but I'm more interested in selection, inventory turnover, and store atmosphere. If I think you're having a mark-down or a big shipment of new merchandise, or a free how-to clinic, I'll be in your store every weekend - and spending MONEY!!! And I'm sure there are many others who will be too!!

So what turns you off about your LHS? Maybe it was unfriendliness, selection, atmosphere, etc. What keeps you from purchasing, or better yet, returning? If you shop at one a few times a year, what keeps you from going more often (aside from the cost of fuel)? Personally, I have no problem paying full MSRP if it is for something that I really want. Last week I purchased three new Atlas 11,000 gallon tank cars lettered for the Mississippi Chemical Co. for $24 each at Hobbytown USA (the only hobby shop within a 90 mile radius). I could have gotten them as a Buy It Now on eBay for $16 each, but I wanted them as soon as I saw them. You know, the whole instant gratification thing. I would have spent more money there, but everything else has been sitting in the same spot for the last six months.

One bit of popular terminology in the retail vernacular is "driving sales". What could your LHS do - or have done - to drive their business. These days one can no longer be content to wake up, unlock the store, sit on their a** behind the counter for 8 hours, then go home. A business requires an investment of not only money, but also time and creativity. During my many years of retail management, not one district manager would have accepted the excuse, "well, no ones in the mall today" for below quota figures. No interest in the hobby in your area? Then CREATE interest in the hobby in your area.

As for my experience this morning, I found a dealer on eBay who would sell me 100 pieces of Atlas Code 83 flex track for $220, plus Atlas Code 83 #6 switches for $8.33 each. I’m purchasing 100 total - 50 right and 50 left. I inquired about, and was given FREE SHIPPING! When I called to pay with my Visa, I found out it was Nagengast Hardware and Hobby in Ridgewood, NY - - - a Local Hobby Shop!!!!. This LHS used to advertise in Model Railroader, and has been in business since 1947!!!! Hans, who I spoke with, was the nicest, friendliest and most courteous person I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with. Not only did I get Free Shipping, but he told me he would give me an additional discount for ordering so many switches!!! He ALREADY had my business, so what did he gain by furthering my discount? How about a customer for LIFE!!! It is NO WONDER that this LHS has been going strong for nearly 60 years!!!!!!!! So long TrainWorld (rudest women on Earth!!!), Standard Hobby and Toy Train Heaven! A LHS has outshined you ALL!!

Nagengast Hardware and Hobby has perfected the blueprint for a successful LHS in these changing times….a friendly, competitive local presence with a strong, equally friendly and competitive internet presence. For the cost of a slightly smaller profit margin, they not only closed a $1200 + sale, but gained a big-spending customer for the long haul. Even though I live in Mississippi, my LHS is in New York!!!

[Anonymous]

I usually try to shop at my LHS (Northern suburbs of Chicago) first. I know there is a level of service I pay for, and it is a very friendly place. I feel that service benefits me in that I have questions (many questions) on the layout I am buildling and getting a 2nd opinion there really helps. I usually attempt to purchase from my LHS first and goto the interent for all the old items I have missed (like P2k GP9's or PFE reefers as of late).

Currently, I have on order with them a F9 A/B set of the NdeM with sound. I know I could probably get this a bit cheaper online. But, like I said, I get a discount there and the level of service I get is unbeatable.

[NevinW]

If all hobby shops were like Caboose Hobbies in Denver, I think they would be much healthier. I do lots of traveling and try to visit at least one train hobby shop along the way. Way too many have poor inventories and are staffed by individuals who really don't know the hobby or even what they are carrying in the store. Rudeness and cluelessness are pretty common. I recently had a hobby shore owner tell me that there was no such thing as 2 rail O scale. There is no question that the Internet and mail order is hurting the hobby shop but it is apparent that the smart stores are adapting and even doing pretty well. - Nevin

[lesterperry]

I miss my LHS which has been gone for around 2 months now. I can find decoders, cars , Locos ect on the internet but where do I get scres taht fit an atlas switch machine?

[Rotorranch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Why would I open a LHS? I'll do it because I like trains and the peeple.

What would bury me is the need to keep up with everything in the hobby. Not the small amount of profit.

Highiron...If that's what you want to do, go for it!

Be forewarned...it's a lot of work! I go almost 24-7 all the time just trying to keep my store going! My store is closed one day a week, ( Moday is my weekend ) and I spend my "day off" placing orders, cleaning the store, cleaning the bathrooms, ( yeck!!!) paying the bills, etc....

My advice...be friendly! Greet eveeeryone that comes through the door! Be glad to see them! The walkins bring money! ( Some don't, but treat all walk ins like they are millionares! )

If you don't have it, get it! Be glad to order what ya don't have! Most folks understand you can't stock everythiing. There is no real reason you can't get something within a weeks time, unless your distributors don't have it in stock! There are many instances where the manufacturer falls behind. This will be blamed on the dealer, even if that's not the case!

Above all, treat the customer as though they are royalty! Remember, they are the folks who are really paying the bills!

Rotor

[Anonymous]

Why would I open a LHS? I'll do it because I like trains and the peeple.

What would bury me is the need to keep up with everything in the hobby. Not the small amount of profit.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

There are two LHS's within 90 minutes drive from Comox for HO stuff. Both offer good service...they're GOOd people. I go there just to browse, to see what he has that's new, to check ( or more correctly, 'reality check') on prices (Walthers Indexed TT.....gulp!).

Lately, I have bought nothing. I browse, enjoy what I have seen and inspected, but I leave without a purchase. For one thing, I have already spent close to $1500 on loco, DCC, tracks, rolling stock, structure kits, and scenic stuff. But the prices are very steep, and rarely discounted.

So, to answer your question, I go to look and enjoy, but if I buy anthing listed over $30, I am inclined to check the internet first. To soften the cost of shipping, I'll order several things at the same time.

That said, I did purchase two 48' wooden passenger cars RTR (okay...okay!), and a Harriman combo car kit at the nearest LHS this past week. I have begun to support his op because he is closer...more local.

It is a struggle between opportunity, presentation, availability, and outright costs. I do also try to support local business when my wallet will permit....sort of like tipping is a way of life when eating out....you just do it cuz' it's right.

[Chris_S68]

When I was last into the hobby, there wasn't an internet to buy off of. I'd go to the hobby shops that had the best service and the most in stock.
Now that I'm back into the hobby, I still prefer to buy from a store, if I can. I like to physically examine an item before I purchase it, and I don't mind to pay a few bucks extra for cash and carry. The one closest to me has a new owner, and seems to be geared more toward the RC crowd with not much space dedicated to model railroading, but I've been buying a few cars from him here and there. I need to get back out to Elgin to check out the shop I used to frequent almost daily after work. That place always had a great inventory, including special runs - particularly CNW stuff. [:D]

[csmith9474]

My LHS gives me a standard 10-15% discount and maybe more depending on how bad they want to move the merchandise in question.

[Anonymous]

Most lhs's carry enough stuff for there clients cash needs, it's too much a niche hobby now to carry everything made out there and who can tie up that mach cash in inventory. I like kits, branchline,red caboose.etc,but the next guy wants rtr, and then there's the guy looking for $5.00 freight cars. there's no winning. If he doesn't have it, but can get it in 10 days or so I'm happy and that's where I'll shop

[skiloff]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

Simply put: I don't need the deep discount prices of online, but I also don't want MSRP. Even a 10-15% discount would be enough for me to buy exclusively at that store. The other thing that is important is when you don't have something in stock, at least get it to me within a couple weeks. Twice now I have ordered something from my LHS and it has taken 6-8 weeks. That is no incentive for me to order anything from you and kind of puts me off buying anything there. They are nice friendly people, but there has to be some service level, too.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msbcms

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

Mythical Cheapest Prices? Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but if it's an indication that you think price is not a big factor - then I'd say you need to keep on researching. [:D]

Price is big. Inventory (selection) is big. Nice knowledgeable people (that are even happy when you only purchase a bag of ground foam) running the place is big. A clean, spacious, and organized store is a big plus too.

Another idea I had to draw in people is for the store to have its own large detailed layout. It would incorporate all the products they sell to demonstrate how nice they could look (or how well they work). I realize it would be a huge expense and a terribly inefficient use of retail space, but I’d bet it would get people in the store.

[Anonymous]

I have been doing research on whether to open a LHS for a while and have been on the fence because some people do make money at while other don't. What it seem from most everyone's posts is that if the LHS compete completely on price they are doomed because of the online gys, wholesalers, flea markets etc. The question this leads me to is:

Why would you go to an LHS?

Asked a different way, what would change your mind about going to an LHS (besides the the mythical cheapest prices around?

[rlandry6]

My LHS has had the same locos in the case ever since I've began buying there.. All priced ABOVE retail. I buy magazines, paint, pigments, etc there, but that's about it. If anyone has a really good reason why I should buy a LL Steam loco there for $250 instead of at BLW for $112, I'm all ears. Same with diesel.. $92 instead of $59, I don't think so...

[jacon12]

It's amazing, isn't it.
We all want great customer service and we b***h and complain when we don't get it. Yet, we want rock bottom prices also. Usually, and mind you I said 'usually', the two don't go together.
This year I've purchased one BLI steamer and one P2K E6 from my LHS. I also get all my track from them, not to mention couplers, wheel sets etc. I'm not adverse to online shopping, but I've learned you darned well better know what you're buying...... what's junk and what's not, who has good return policys and who doesn't.
I agree that the LHS is in trouble, but due to human nature, I don't know if they can be saved in the long run and that is a shame.
JaRRell

[MisterBeasley]

I went to the LHS a couple of days ago. This is a small shop, and I know where pretty much everything is, but when I checked my watch I'd been there over an hour. I'd been chatting with another customer and the owner about the sound installation going on at the workbench, and about which resistors to use with LEDs.

This forum puts me in touch with the global MR community, but the LHS introduces me to other local railroaders. I'm not a club guy at the moment, so the LHS is my only meeting place.

Of course, I'm lucky to have a great LHS close enough to home that I've actually gone there on a bicycle a couple of times, and the house and cars are all paid for, so money is less of a problem than it is for many of us. Still, I'll shop on the computer to find an out-of-production locomotive, or that really big bag of Kadee #5's, or just a great deal on some item that's MSRP in the shop. Most of the time, though, I like to take a pleasant drive to the next town north for my MR stuff. I model the 1960's, and somehow it's more fitting to do my shopping in that era, too.

[randyaj]

I agree 100%! I see too many people that use their local hobby shop like the local 7/11. If they need something quick, like ground foam or a switch they go there and are glad they are there with their doors open and their shelves stocked with what they need, but only buy the little items. LHS can not survive on small item purchases. Yes I buy some items from ebay and every once in a while from online, but I do the majority of my business from my hobby shop Hobby Haven. They are great, if an item is not correct, does not work properly, or is missing parts; will take it back no questions asked. They will order for me, and if they can give me a discount on orders. They answer my questions and have given me great tips for modeling, The only reason that I do some ordering elsewhere is that I model Great Northern and live in Iowa; which is not the most popular road to model here. Yes I pay more, but if I want them there when I need that Peco switch to finish a section of track, and not have to wait a couple weeks for it, then I need to support them so that they are there.
Regards
Randy

[AntonioFP45]

Jwareing makes a good point.

I've visited various LHS stores over the years. If the owner or managers have a poor attitude or are not knowledgeable about what they're selling, I won't bother walking in the door again. Three years ago, I met a DCC vendor at a train show in Sarasota, Florida who was selling DCC equipment at a discount. He became incredibly pushy and obnoxious when I told him I was interested in Digitrax but he kept trying to shove NCE at me. I nodded my head, thanked him and walked away. He didn't realize that he lost out on the $100 bills that I had in my pocket to buy DCC equipment. I decided to wait til my friendly LHS started stocking DCC.

I know of one store in the next county where prices are above MSRP. Friendly owners that cater mostly to the toy train crowd. The only thing I may pick up when I'm in that store is a pack of P2K wheels.

Overall Guys, you've given some super responses. My issue has been with regards to "The good LHS's". Those are the ones that I suggest that we support.

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rotorranch
What I'm trying to get at is simply this...support the local hobby shop. They support you. They know who you are, and try to cater to you! Nobody can have everything in stock! Look at all the stuff the Big train stores advertise, but then backorder on ya. Give the local guys a chance. Keep the money in your own neighborhood. Give your LHS a chance. Try it, you'll like it!

I agree with you wholeheartedly; and do exactly what you say. I know I love my LHS.

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay
The internet is what's killin um all.

I could not disagree more.

It is those of us -- hobbists, model railroaders, etc. -- who choose to buy our supplies from Internet-based retailers who are killing the LHSs. Not the Internet-based retailers themselves.

We, as consumers in free-market societies, have the choice of where we spend our hard-earned money. No one is forcing us to spend it at any particular store. So, if our local shops start going bankrupt and go out of business, we have no one to blame but ourselves. If you want to keep your local retailers in business, you must support them.

[BRAKIE]

Don,Did you have your glasses off or did you miss this part on the bottom of my reply?? [;)]



So,yeah if I was able I would shop locally-well not so local-after all prior to my heart attack I went hobby shop hopping every Saturday unless it snowed.[:D]

[selector]

The customer is always right. The customer will always prefer, like water, to find the lowest point. Sometimes not, but most always. If I can get a strongly desired loco cheaper from source A, A gets my business.

I owe no loyalty to my LHS, nor to source A. My loyalty is to my bottom line, as She Who MUST Be Obeyed takes great pains to point out to me at every hobby purchasing opportunity. Mom and Pop, Walmart, Internet Choo-Choos, it's all the same to me.

Or, as a recently retired American President would say, "It't the trains, stupid."

[Anonymous]

my favourite train store/ hobby shop where i had no trouble buying anything i need for 0 scale/proto:48 got sold to some new guys. they are not interested in continuing to support my needs and are blowing out that merchandise because they don't understand it. for my mail order needs they suggest i order direct and not put them to the bother. i hope they do well; i won't be around to find out.

my nearest lhs doesn't carry much train stuff, but they will order anything i want plus give me a 10% break to boot. i buy a lot of my glue, screws, tools and stripwood there. they're into remote planes and cars and are likely to be around for awhile. i don't think they are depending on me to stay afloat.

sixty miles away is a real train store where i will buy between $80. & $140. worth of detail parts three times a year for my scratchbuilding projects. for some reason, if i am interested in a particular trainset they carry, they will tell me where it is cheaper and how much i can expect to pay if that is an issue. i don't think they are going under anytime soon.

fifty miles, in another direction, is the biggest trainstore around; and i swear they hate customers because they are not nice, friendly, or seem to care one bit. they seem to have a lot of customers though and don't appear to miss me when i'm not around.

ebay has been an interesting experience. between the good deals and the ripoffs, i am about even.

i will support my local hobby shop as much as they want me to. money comes and goes, but a good trainset will last a long time.

-rrick

[Anonymous]

The internet is what's killin um all.

[Anonymous]

There is a certain amount of money I spend at the LHS. Usually it is replacement of analog motive power with those equippted with sound and DCC out of the box. I would sell the analog and other items on Ebay to offset the high prices on the new equiptment.

Prices are going up everywhere. The only response I have to that is to decide how best to spend what pocket money there is and where. The most bang for the buck is what will get the sale. At this time it is still the LHS.

I dont worry about who makes a profit on the sale. I rather see the owner of his LHS and his family earn the profit and be able to eat. That way the store will stay open and we will continue to enjoy it.

I have seen many stores close down over the years. I can never bring back those stores. But... the hobby lives on and I think as long as someone still loves trains and has a dollar to spend will find a way to get them.

[Rotorranch]

A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

I want to add a few things here. I own a LHS, with slot cars, trains, R/C, plastics, etc. I've been in the hobby business for over 10 years now, 3 years in my own store, and 6 years working for one shop, then a couple years working part time at yet another.

The average discount from hobby distributors is 40%. That is a smaller markup than most any retail sales except for grocery stores!

Now add in shipping costs from the distributors. That adds at least 5% to my weekly orders. So we are now at 35%. Add COD fees, HAZ-MAT, etc, we are now at around 30%.

OK, out of that 30%, we have rent, utilities, repairs, etc. There goes the rest of the profits.

Many of the LHS's are lucky to break even!

After that, you have the Manufacturers, Distributors, and the Basement vendors selling the products direct to the customer, at discount...man, this is a tough way to go! I have seen distributors selling on their own web sites at LESS than I can buy from them! [V]

For the customer, the plus side. Any LHS worth it's salt can get you whatever you want. I order every week on Monday. ( My day off! ) My orders are here by Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday at the latest, depending on the distributor. That's as fast, or faster, then you will get it from most any mail order/internet site. And I don't charge you, the customer, for shipping!

Do I discount? You betchya! I have to to be competive!

There is a big difference between the general hobby, and the slot car industry. The general hobby distributors, ( ie trains, planes, R/C, etc, ) seem to sell to anyone who pays the bills. Hence the basement and garage businesses (?) that sell at discount to y'all. The slot car industry won't, with an exception or two, sell to anyone except a real brick and mortar storefront!

Now, what if you have a problem with your stuff? You gonna send it back to the basement bargain store for service? Ha,ha,ha,ha, he, he. [:(] Most of these places don't even have a clue as to what a model railroad is, let alone how to fix something! The adage is " Buy it on ePay, take it to ePay for service! ".

What I'm trying to get at is simply this...support the local hobby shop. They support you. They know who you are, and try to cater to you! Nobody can have everything in stock! Look at all the stuff the Big train stores advertise, but then backorder on ya. Give the local guys a chance. Keep the money in your own neighborhood. Give your LHS a chance. Try it, you'll like it!

Rotor