Does anyone here have Beyer Garrats, or K's model

[CG9602]

Hello everyone,
I'm currently assembling a 2-6-0+0-6-2 Beyer Garrat, and was wondering if anyone else has done so. I'm using an older kit from K's model locomotives, and am curious if anyone else has had experience that they would share.

[nfmisso]

Hi;

No I have no experience with Garratts. You did not mention a scale.

You may find this company interesting:
http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/acatalog/index.html

Nigel

[CG9602]

I've looked at that company's website, & I'm rather intrigued. I model in HO scale, so their models of the South African & the Australian Beyer Garratts look impressive, though technically demanding & expensive. However, I guess one of those might be fun to build. Thanks for the www info. I was also curious to find out just how popular models of these locos are, & if people keep them at home for use only on one's personal layout, or if they bring them to the local club meeting for use on that layout.

[BR60103]

I don't believe that I've ever seen an assembled K's B-G. I saw the DJH (I think) that someone bought and completed in a few weeks, to the astonishment of the dealer that sold it.
I made the Kitmaster plastic LMS Garrat in the early 60s, and Linn Westcott published a letter I wrote about them at that time.
--David

[CG9602]

Well, you might see one sooner or later. I'm right in the middle of assembly, & there have been a few lessons involved in assembling this kit, as the instructions leave something to be desired for the novice ( such as myself ). It's the LMS garratt, all right, & I had to substitute the metal Romford Drivers for the plastic " regular " drive wheels. It's mostly white metal & brass, & it'll have a few home-made " modifications " due to parts being lost, broken, misshapen, etc. However, the wheels & valve gear work in adequate fashion, now that I've learned what to look & test for. it's actually proven to be fun, while a learning process at the same time. I was wondering what success other modelers have had with this particular brand name. Did you find them to be of good quality ? Have you had any problems with their kits ? Also, now that the wheels are in working order, what are the things most likly to go wrong due to assembly ? How might I avoid or test & correct those issues ? Thanks for your replies.

[BR60103]

I've seen the older white metal kits referred to as a set of parts to help build a locomotive.
Most of your problems should be that the parts don't fit together too well. The problem places tend to be cabs and the smokebox/boiler/firebox.
I have a 4-4-0 and the frame is bending a liile because the cab and smokebox are pushing down on it. A lot of the detail parts look like blobs of solder.
Oh: Joining the parts. The metal castings melt at normal solder temperatures. The natives use "low melt solder" or various glues.
The Garratt was a late issue from Ks, so the castings should be in pretty good shape.
The visible edges, especially the cab, will look to be made from "armour plate that a battleship would be envious of".
--David

[CG9602]

You're not kidding when you wrote that the kits were a collection of parts from which to help build a locomotive. It's proven to be a challenge, and the instructions from K's leave something to be desired if one is a novice - like me. I also noted your comments regarding the soldering, and wi***hat I knew that before last night. However, damage was successfully contained to a small area along the connecting rod head. The castings are in pretty good shape, with only a modest amount of " flash, " so just a few parts require adjustment in order to fit correctly. You're also correct regarding the cab & so forth. I had to use CA glue to attach the motor to the rest of the frame because I would've had to destroy part of the motor in order to mount the worm screw the ways that the instructions implied. I never thought that white metal would be so soft and malleable, but then again I began this project with the expectation of learning some lessons. In some ways, the assembly of locomotives from kits is similar to my experience as a boy assembling model ships in that there always were a few pieces ( sometimes more than a few ) that required " modification " in order to fit the way that I thought they should. Again, thanks to all for the advice. Now to assemble & test the pickup gear.

[BR60103]

The pickup gear on my 4-4-0 was a phosphor bronze strip soldered to the lower terminal of the motor and rubbing on the back of the wheels. Any improvement?
There has been major discussion of pickups in the British press, with two major alternatives. One is sprung plungers rubbing on the back of the wheels (tyres), the other is metal strips rubbing on the treads. Also traditional wire/strip rubbing on back of wheels.
(I tried plungers on one loco, missed when I drilled the holes, and had them coming on the insulation or between the spokes.)
--David

[CG9602]

That's the type of pick-up kit that the kit has: phosphor bronze strips that I had to solder. The bronze strips are to be adjusted and set in order that they will touch the back of the wheels. I'll have to get to the store later on today in order to buy some spare wire ( as a replacement in case of error ) so that if the wires are too short in length, I'll have some extra with which to work. Thanks for the tip on the location of where to attach the wires to the motor. Believe it or not, the instructions don't indicate where to attach the wires to the motor unit ( not that this is a mystery ). I'm not certain if I could get ahold of those plungers you mention, so I'll work with the bronze strips first. Those bronze strips look tricky to keep in contact with the wheels, but it'll only tkae some experimentation.

Thanks for the tips
--CG9602

[Anonymous]

Hi - you north americans have been spoon fed by your model industry for too long. I'm glad that the old pioneering spirit isn't dead! seriously though while I havnt built this particular model I have built other kits by this manufacturer and can get drawings and photos of the original. I would recomend a two part epoxy as an adhesive if u cant get low melting solder in the U S.

[Anonymous]

as a p.s. to my reply to yours of2/26/03 - we U.K. natives usually mount the phos bronze strip onto blank p c board which is then bolted to the loco chassis.This enables us to make adjustments more easily.

[CG9602]

Thanks for the tips & advice. I'll be visiting the hobby store & electronics stores again tomorrow. I placed the motor on the frame ok, and got around to wiring the bronze connection strips, but when it came time for me to bend the strips such that they would touch the wheels, the strips just plain broke. It was as if the metal had become brittle somehow. Anyways, does anyone have suggestions for replacement strips ? I thought of using 18-ga. copper wire ( the kind you would find at Radio Shack ), however, I have strong suspictions that the wire is not the thing to use. I welcome any suggestions as to what I might use as substitutes or replacement for these strips now that I am unable to use the ones that came with the kit. Would the local hobby store have some replacements ? Or, are these strips generally hard to find ?

Oh, the PC board is an idea that I'll certainly experiment with. Also, stevebooth, I concede that model railroaders in the United States are spoiled a bit by our hobby's emphasis on the ready-to-run equipment. I have just as much fun tearing down an old layout that I'm bored with and constructiing something new ( a Beyer Garratt locomotive, for example :) ). I'll look forward to any additional suggestions, especially now that I encountered an obsticle that to me seems rather challenging.

[BR60103]

The pickup strips are phosphor bronze, which is a common stuff for Btitisn models. I don't know if it's available in U.S. or Canada, except for specialist British suppliers. (Check the BRMNA web site) You need something with a bit of spring to it -- music wire possibly.
Prototype story: The Garrats were intended (In part) to replace doubled headed 4F 0-6-0s on coal trains to the Toton hump yard. The practice had been that the engines for one train would pu***he previous train over the hump and them follow it over. They continued this with the Garrats, but there was a rather sharp bend at the peak of the hump; they didn't realize this until the drivers on the rear engine came through the cab floor.
Well, I read it somewhere!
--David

[CG9602]

Again, thank you David Brampton. I'll take your advice. I was able to find several packages of Phosphor bronze pick-up strips in a few stores here in the Twin Cities. Now, if I could just figure out how to modify or adapt those strips to what I need, I'll be fine. The model engine is over 95 percent built, the only major thing I have left to do is the wiring for the motor itself. Some of the strips don't look long enough to do the trick, so again I'll have to make some "modifications" - in other words, I may have to solder some of the strips together in order to get a legnth I can use. The joys of building this kit are somewhat tempered by the fact that it is a kit from the 1970s, and so things aren't of the quality they are now. However, this is still the first Beyer Garratt kit that I've come across in quite some time, dispite the fact that it's a K's model kit ( from what other modelers wrote in correspodnece with me, K's weren't held in high regard by the U. K. model railroaders ). I have every intention of completing this kit, and continue to welcome the opportunity to acquire more model RR skills as a result. Also, the WWW has been a tremendous resource, as I've been able to get pictures off of the WWW to show when friends stop over and ask what it is that I've been up to lately. Any additional suggestions as to the wiring of the motor ( its an older open-face motor ) to the connecting strips will be welcomed. Does one actually sit down, measure the strips, & wire, etc., before making any bends, or are there model railroaders who are skillful enough that they can just "eyeball" things ?

[CG9602]

OK, here goes the next question. My model has one of the older "open frame" motors. When I rig up the wiring for the pick ups, which wire goes to whcih location ? Or, does it not matter so long as one wire goes to one part of the motor & another wire go to another part ? I'd hate to wire the thig only to discover that I've wired it backwards. How do I tell which wire goes to which part of the motor ?
Maybe I'll just take it to the local hobby shop and hear what they have to say. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

CG9602

[BR60103]

If you have the same type of motor as I had, the brushes are fitted with two long tags. The instructions were that the bottom tag picked up from the insulated wheels and the top tag was forced down onto the motor (the magnet part) to pickup from the chassis.
You want to have the motor set to move the loco the right direction.
Does the motor (or is it motors?) have one mounting hole or one on each side? You may have to rotate it so it runs the right way. It would be handiest to have a wire to each tag, then you could reverse them if the loco runs backwards.
Try touching leads to the bushes to see which way it turns and which way it will make the loco run.
--David
Are the two engine parts insulated from each other?

[CG9602]

Thanks everyone for all your advice. You've been very helpful, especially the two Davids. I've been printing out your statements so that I can make use of them. I found the two '"tags" one the motor, and, after some additional disassembly, filing down of certain areas that upon reflection weren't filed enough during the initial assembly phase, reassembly, and then experimentation with the leads from the transformer, I was able to figure out what and where the two tags were. I have now bench tested the motor ( this is a 1970s vintage kit of a Ks model OO scale 2-6-0+0-6-2 ), and shes runs! hooray! Now to just figure out how to jury rig the Tomar bronze pick-up strips so as to be able to replace the kit ones that I messed up earlier. Other than that, everything appears to be ok. Somewhat frustrating, but ok. The motor has two holes, but there is olnly one place to mount it on the locomotive. Also, thanks for the advice on which wire goes to which tag - the instructions I have say nothing about this issue.

Again, many thanks for your patience and your answers. CG96, River Falls, WI

[CG9602]

Another question: How does one get the eccentric and the drive rod to stay on the pin that connects them to the drive wheels? In the kit instructions, it says that the eccentric screws on, and I can confirm from personal experience that this isn't the case. Any suggestions or advice ?

[Krokodil]

Hi

I have got recently the same kit. Unfortunatelly the small plastic box with axles and other HW is missing). I am searching for somebody who can help me to get those parts - especially the axles with D flanges.
Any help will be appreciated

Eugene

[CG9602]

Eugene: what I ended up doing was taking off the wheels with the plastic hubs ( the ones with the D ring ) and substituting the Romford driver wheels instead. These substitute wheels came with my kit, and have metal hubs, which made them much more difficult for novices such as myself to mess up. Plan on doing other things with the kit such as : filing out the wheel holes where the axles go, and the brass bushings that go into those wheel/axle holes. If you fail to do this, the wheels won't turn. Also, I used some lube gel from Radio shack to lubricate the axles. Other parts that required filing include the crossheads, the cylinder fixing plate, and parts of the cylinders. K's really didn't make the kit very well, and as it was made with 1970s era processes, you should anticipate having parts that require modification & adaptation in order to run properly. Also anticipate that the screws and bolts that come with the kit don't conform to US measurement systems. I think the nuts, bolts and screws that came with my kit were metric. I had to go out to my local hobby store ( fortunatly there are a few really good ones in the Twin Cities area ) and track down the screws, nuts, bolts, etc that were of the closest approximate size. let's just say it was a learning experience that I anticipated, but it had its share of annoying qualities. the instructions left something to be desired as well. I think the instructions were written with someone more experienced in mind, and not the complete novice that I was at the beginning of this project. The Romford drivers ( the drive wheels with the metal hubs ) came with my kit, along with several pins that were used as the crankpins. so far, they have worked out ok for me, but anticipate doing a considerable amount of filing of the axle/wheel holes on the main brass frame in order to get the wheels to the appropriate level of fit. also, the kit I used had the plastic wheels come inside of skin packaging with a paper back. The Romford drivers came in a separate plastic bag, there was no separate set of wheels inside of any plastic box.
Two final things: when you are assembling the pick-up strips, be sure to go out and by a few replacements from Tomar, as the originals are more brittle than I was accustomed to. Also, don't use your regular soldering iron on this kit, as it will melt the white metal parts.
Other than that, enjoy the kit. also keep us here at the board posted on your progress. It is fun to hear from someone else doing something and building a kit that very few US modelers will have seen before. Trust me, you put this thing out at your local model RR meet, and you'll be certain to get a few questions. :)

[BR60103]

A small correction: the nuts and bolts aren't metric; they're BA (British A??). A more recent kit would be metric.
Eugene: do you need an address for Romford or another wheel maker?
--David

[CG9602]

No wonder I couldn't quite get the right size! BA ??. as far as I know, that series of sizes is unavailable here in the US. You might as well post where Eugene can get a pair of the Romford Drivers, like what I was able to use as a substitute.

Thanks anyways, David.

[Krokodil]

Hi CG (sorry I do not know your name)

Thank you for he hints. I am aware of the problems this is not my first white metal kit, and before I made many completely scratchbuilt locomotives (also 2 articulateds in H0 and smaller size).
The screws are also a problem for me, because they are also not meric, probaly som BA standards. (I am from continental (pure metric) Europe) I replaced many with metric ones.

I have a problem with the Romford wheels as they are slightly out of standard (inner distance does not corresponds to NMRA gauge) and creates by such size of locomotives problems on the switches. I used the place a thin washer between the wheel and the axle which creates another problems..

I will redesign the complete pick-up as on my layout I have to collect current always symmetricaly (on the same axle both sides) - I have to do this modification on all Rivarossi locomotives and also on many MDC ones.

Thank you again.

[Krokodil]

Hi David,

I do have the address of Romford, I will appreciate when you can help me with other wheel makers. Thank you!

[CG9602]

The kit in question here is in OO guage, 1/76 ( I think ) instead of the north American standard HO 1?87 guage. When I run it on HO track, the flanges are right up against the rails. In any case, please post the address of Romford, if only because in the future I might require it.
One more company to look at is DJHmodelloco.co.uk.
This company has current production of Garratt models, especially the larger ones such as the 4-8-2+2-8-4 GMAM & the Austrailian 4-8-4+4-8-4. It will be funbuilding these models as well. does anyone have experience with the products from this company? Hopefully, it will be more positive than what I've experienced with this K's model.

[Krokodil]

Hi CG

I have also the DJH Garratt 4-8-2+2-8-4. This model is definitely better than the old Ks. I like the DJH models, they fit together quite well and also the instructions are good enough to build a nice model. I will place both models to the WEB when they will be ready.

[CG9602]

That's good to know regarding the DJH models, as I have purchased from them, and expect to build the next model once I'm finished with this one. I also like the looks of the 4-8-4+4-8-4 Australian loco that they have. I just need to figure out how to jury rig the Tomar pickup shoes to the 2-6-0+0-6-2, and she'll be ready to run. I've already taken a few pictures for future reference. all in all, a fun experience, though.

[Krokodil]

Hi

There are some WEB addresse for wheels:

http://www.coslar.us/etmrc/etmrc_links.html

and

the catalogue sheet wheels.

http://66.33.36.129/lists/0017-18.pdf

[CG9602]

Thank you. These URLs may come in very handy, as I just might make some moves that require the replacement of parts when I get around to building the DJH Garratts. Would there be any things or issues to be aware of ( for example, parts requireing considerable modification in order to fit properly) when assembling these models? Or, has DJH done a pretty good job of making tghings hassle-free ? Will there be situations where I'll have to modify some parts ?

[Krokodil]

Hi CG

I did not finished my model yet (there are so many another things to do) but I was quite happy with my earlier DJH kits. In the mechanism they are very simple which is good for us.

I am more afraid of the K's kit where I have to replace the missing parts...