Does anyone here have Beyer Garrats, or K's model

[tstage]

Wow!  I think this has to be the new record for thread drilling.   Nonetheless, maybe someone will have the assembly instructions you're after...

Tom

[Krokodil]

Hi 

 

is there still somebody?.

I assembled many years ago the Keyser 2-6-0+0-6-2 kit and during our recent moving the box was a bit destroyed and of course my Garratt as well. I am trying to fix the model again, but I lost somewhere the documentation. Can somebody help me with the scanned copy. Thank you very much.

Eugene

[Anonymous]

Although I haven't done the Beyer Garrat as such, my advice to you would be to ditch the motor and the wheels and axles. It'll spare you in the long run. As somebody else suggested go for Romford axles and drivers, and get 2 decent can motors (portescap, etc)

Good luck

Jon Grant

[CG9602]

I'll have to keep that in mind, now that i've completed the real crummy kit from K's, and moved on to the first of the DJH kits. oh, well, one lives and learns. thanks for the recommendation - i'll be sure to put it to use.

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: I had to use CA glue to attach the motor to the rest of the frame because I would've had to destroy part of the motor in order to mount the worm screw the ways that the instructions implied.

I don't know anything about the kit in question, but I think mounting a motor with CA isn't a good idea. How are you going to remove that motor if you need to? A better choice would have been silicone bathtub caulk which makes a nice secure bond, and provides some insulation/vibration absorbsion, while still being breakable, if necessary for repair work.

I hope this helps in some way. This kit sounds like an interesting build.

[CG9602]

Well, summer is coming to an end here, and i'll resume working on these models from DJH. So far, the quality of manufacturing has been much better than the K's kit, but i'm still curious to find out tif there are any others out there who model Garrats. Are we really that small of a group?

[CG9602]

Now that the LMS 2-6-0+0-6-2 is almost complete, I can start on the HO scale 4-8-4+4-8-4 and the 4-8-2+2-8-4 from DJH. Are there any members of the forum who have dealt with these two models before, and, if so, what are some issues that you had to deal with during assembly?

[CG9602]

It's good to read that the DJH kit is more straightforward than what I experienced with the K's model kit. I regret that I really have no tips to share in regards to the missing parts. You may find yourself either doing without the parts, or having to kitba***he parts from what you can improvise. If you end up having to improvise, you'll have more skills than most modelers out there. The website where I purchased my K's kit is Modelfair.com. They might have something, but I really can't be certain. Sorry to write, but I have no idea where you'll be able to find parts for a kit that went out of production over 2 decades ago. Perhaps you might send email to DJH and ask them if they would make replacement parts. Rumor has it that years ago, DJH bought out the Grandspot model kit line, which was originally made by Keyser, the makers of K's model kits. Keyser is no longer in any kit building business at all, they are now some sort of plastics molding firm in Oxfordshire, I think.

In any case, I learned a few lessons along the way ( which was what I expected to occur all along ), and now I have a kit that has a few obvious alterations - but it still runs and it works. All I have to do now is assemble the PB pick-up strips, becuase I wreaked the ones that came with the kit.

[Krokodil]

Hi CG

I did not finished my model yet (there are so many another things to do) but I was quite happy with my earlier DJH kits. In the mechanism they are very simple which is good for us.

I am more afraid of the K's kit where I have to replace the missing parts...

[CG9602]

Thank you. These URLs may come in very handy, as I just might make some moves that require the replacement of parts when I get around to building the DJH Garratts. Would there be any things or issues to be aware of ( for example, parts requireing considerable modification in order to fit properly) when assembling these models? Or, has DJH done a pretty good job of making tghings hassle-free ? Will there be situations where I'll have to modify some parts ?

[Krokodil]

Hi

There are some WEB addresse for wheels:

http://www.coslar.us/etmrc/etmrc_links.html

and

the catalogue sheet wheels.

http://66.33.36.129/lists/0017-18.pdf

[CG9602]

That's good to know regarding the DJH models, as I have purchased from them, and expect to build the next model once I'm finished with this one. I also like the looks of the 4-8-4+4-8-4 Australian loco that they have. I just need to figure out how to jury rig the Tomar pickup shoes to the 2-6-0+0-6-2, and she'll be ready to run. I've already taken a few pictures for future reference. all in all, a fun experience, though.

[Krokodil]

Hi CG

I have also the DJH Garratt 4-8-2+2-8-4. This model is definitely better than the old Ks. I like the DJH models, they fit together quite well and also the instructions are good enough to build a nice model. I will place both models to the WEB when they will be ready.

[CG9602]

The kit in question here is in OO guage, 1/76 ( I think ) instead of the north American standard HO 1?87 guage. When I run it on HO track, the flanges are right up against the rails. In any case, please post the address of Romford, if only because in the future I might require it.
One more company to look at is DJHmodelloco.co.uk.
This company has current production of Garratt models, especially the larger ones such as the 4-8-2+2-8-4 GMAM & the Austrailian 4-8-4+4-8-4. It will be funbuilding these models as well. does anyone have experience with the products from this company? Hopefully, it will be more positive than what I've experienced with this K's model.

[Krokodil]

Hi David,

I do have the address of Romford, I will appreciate when you can help me with other wheel makers. Thank you!

[Krokodil]

Hi CG (sorry I do not know your name)

Thank you for he hints. I am aware of the problems this is not my first white metal kit, and before I made many completely scratchbuilt locomotives (also 2 articulateds in H0 and smaller size).
The screws are also a problem for me, because they are also not meric, probaly som BA standards. (I am from continental (pure metric) Europe) I replaced many with metric ones.

I have a problem with the Romford wheels as they are slightly out of standard (inner distance does not corresponds to NMRA gauge) and creates by such size of locomotives problems on the switches. I used the place a thin washer between the wheel and the axle which creates another problems..

I will redesign the complete pick-up as on my layout I have to collect current always symmetricaly (on the same axle both sides) - I have to do this modification on all Rivarossi locomotives and also on many MDC ones.

Thank you again.

[CG9602]

No wonder I couldn't quite get the right size! BA ??. as far as I know, that series of sizes is unavailable here in the US. You might as well post where Eugene can get a pair of the Romford Drivers, like what I was able to use as a substitute.

Thanks anyways, David.

[BR60103]

A small correction: the nuts and bolts aren't metric; they're BA (British A??). A more recent kit would be metric.
Eugene: do you need an address for Romford or another wheel maker?
--David

[CG9602]

Eugene: what I ended up doing was taking off the wheels with the plastic hubs ( the ones with the D ring ) and substituting the Romford driver wheels instead. These substitute wheels came with my kit, and have metal hubs, which made them much more difficult for novices such as myself to mess up. Plan on doing other things with the kit such as : filing out the wheel holes where the axles go, and the brass bushings that go into those wheel/axle holes. If you fail to do this, the wheels won't turn. Also, I used some lube gel from Radio shack to lubricate the axles. Other parts that required filing include the crossheads, the cylinder fixing plate, and parts of the cylinders. K's really didn't make the kit very well, and as it was made with 1970s era processes, you should anticipate having parts that require modification & adaptation in order to run properly. Also anticipate that the screws and bolts that come with the kit don't conform to US measurement systems. I think the nuts, bolts and screws that came with my kit were metric. I had to go out to my local hobby store ( fortunatly there are a few really good ones in the Twin Cities area ) and track down the screws, nuts, bolts, etc that were of the closest approximate size. let's just say it was a learning experience that I anticipated, but it had its share of annoying qualities. the instructions left something to be desired as well. I think the instructions were written with someone more experienced in mind, and not the complete novice that I was at the beginning of this project. The Romford drivers ( the drive wheels with the metal hubs ) came with my kit, along with several pins that were used as the crankpins. so far, they have worked out ok for me, but anticipate doing a considerable amount of filing of the axle/wheel holes on the main brass frame in order to get the wheels to the appropriate level of fit. also, the kit I used had the plastic wheels come inside of skin packaging with a paper back. The Romford drivers came in a separate plastic bag, there was no separate set of wheels inside of any plastic box.
Two final things: when you are assembling the pick-up strips, be sure to go out and by a few replacements from Tomar, as the originals are more brittle than I was accustomed to. Also, don't use your regular soldering iron on this kit, as it will melt the white metal parts.
Other than that, enjoy the kit. also keep us here at the board posted on your progress. It is fun to hear from someone else doing something and building a kit that very few US modelers will have seen before. Trust me, you put this thing out at your local model RR meet, and you'll be certain to get a few questions. :)

[Krokodil]

Hi

I have got recently the same kit. Unfortunatelly the small plastic box with axles and other HW is missing). I am searching for somebody who can help me to get those parts - especially the axles with D flanges.
Any help will be appreciated

Eugene

[CG9602]

Another question: How does one get the eccentric and the drive rod to stay on the pin that connects them to the drive wheels? In the kit instructions, it says that the eccentric screws on, and I can confirm from personal experience that this isn't the case. Any suggestions or advice ?

[CG9602]

Thanks everyone for all your advice. You've been very helpful, especially the two Davids. I've been printing out your statements so that I can make use of them. I found the two '"tags" one the motor, and, after some additional disassembly, filing down of certain areas that upon reflection weren't filed enough during the initial assembly phase, reassembly, and then experimentation with the leads from the transformer, I was able to figure out what and where the two tags were. I have now bench tested the motor ( this is a 1970s vintage kit of a Ks model OO scale 2-6-0+0-6-2 ), and shes runs! hooray! Now to just figure out how to jury rig the Tomar bronze pick-up strips so as to be able to replace the kit ones that I messed up earlier. Other than that, everything appears to be ok. Somewhat frustrating, but ok. The motor has two holes, but there is olnly one place to mount it on the locomotive. Also, thanks for the advice on which wire goes to which tag - the instructions I have say nothing about this issue.

Again, many thanks for your patience and your answers. CG96, River Falls, WI

[BR60103]

If you have the same type of motor as I had, the brushes are fitted with two long tags. The instructions were that the bottom tag picked up from the insulated wheels and the top tag was forced down onto the motor (the magnet part) to pickup from the chassis.
You want to have the motor set to move the loco the right direction.
Does the motor (or is it motors?) have one mounting hole or one on each side? You may have to rotate it so it runs the right way. It would be handiest to have a wire to each tag, then you could reverse them if the loco runs backwards.
Try touching leads to the bushes to see which way it turns and which way it will make the loco run.
--David
Are the two engine parts insulated from each other?

[CG9602]

OK, here goes the next question. My model has one of the older "open frame" motors. When I rig up the wiring for the pick ups, which wire goes to whcih location ? Or, does it not matter so long as one wire goes to one part of the motor & another wire go to another part ? I'd hate to wire the thig only to discover that I've wired it backwards. How do I tell which wire goes to which part of the motor ?
Maybe I'll just take it to the local hobby shop and hear what they have to say. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

CG9602

[CG9602]

Again, thank you David Brampton. I'll take your advice. I was able to find several packages of Phosphor bronze pick-up strips in a few stores here in the Twin Cities. Now, if I could just figure out how to modify or adapt those strips to what I need, I'll be fine. The model engine is over 95 percent built, the only major thing I have left to do is the wiring for the motor itself. Some of the strips don't look long enough to do the trick, so again I'll have to make some "modifications" - in other words, I may have to solder some of the strips together in order to get a legnth I can use. The joys of building this kit are somewhat tempered by the fact that it is a kit from the 1970s, and so things aren't of the quality they are now. However, this is still the first Beyer Garratt kit that I've come across in quite some time, dispite the fact that it's a K's model kit ( from what other modelers wrote in correspodnece with me, K's weren't held in high regard by the U. K. model railroaders ). I have every intention of completing this kit, and continue to welcome the opportunity to acquire more model RR skills as a result. Also, the WWW has been a tremendous resource, as I've been able to get pictures off of the WWW to show when friends stop over and ask what it is that I've been up to lately. Any additional suggestions as to the wiring of the motor ( its an older open-face motor ) to the connecting strips will be welcomed. Does one actually sit down, measure the strips, & wire, etc., before making any bends, or are there model railroaders who are skillful enough that they can just "eyeball" things ?

[BR60103]

The pickup strips are phosphor bronze, which is a common stuff for Btitisn models. I don't know if it's available in U.S. or Canada, except for specialist British suppliers. (Check the BRMNA web site) You need something with a bit of spring to it -- music wire possibly.
Prototype story: The Garrats were intended (In part) to replace doubled headed 4F 0-6-0s on coal trains to the Toton hump yard. The practice had been that the engines for one train would pu***he previous train over the hump and them follow it over. They continued this with the Garrats, but there was a rather sharp bend at the peak of the hump; they didn't realize this until the drivers on the rear engine came through the cab floor.
Well, I read it somewhere!
--David

[CG9602]

Thanks for the tips & advice. I'll be visiting the hobby store & electronics stores again tomorrow. I placed the motor on the frame ok, and got around to wiring the bronze connection strips, but when it came time for me to bend the strips such that they would touch the wheels, the strips just plain broke. It was as if the metal had become brittle somehow. Anyways, does anyone have suggestions for replacement strips ? I thought of using 18-ga. copper wire ( the kind you would find at Radio Shack ), however, I have strong suspictions that the wire is not the thing to use. I welcome any suggestions as to what I might use as substitutes or replacement for these strips now that I am unable to use the ones that came with the kit. Would the local hobby store have some replacements ? Or, are these strips generally hard to find ?

Oh, the PC board is an idea that I'll certainly experiment with. Also, stevebooth, I concede that model railroaders in the United States are spoiled a bit by our hobby's emphasis on the ready-to-run equipment. I have just as much fun tearing down an old layout that I'm bored with and constructiing something new ( a Beyer Garratt locomotive, for example :) ). I'll look forward to any additional suggestions, especially now that I encountered an obsticle that to me seems rather challenging.

[Anonymous]

as a p.s. to my reply to yours of2/26/03 - we U.K. natives usually mount the phos bronze strip onto blank p c board which is then bolted to the loco chassis.This enables us to make adjustments more easily.

[Anonymous]

Hi - you north americans have been spoon fed by your model industry for too long. I'm glad that the old pioneering spirit isn't dead! seriously though while I havnt built this particular model I have built other kits by this manufacturer and can get drawings and photos of the original. I would recomend a two part epoxy as an adhesive if u cant get low melting solder in the U S.