Refelection on our hobby and art, rather long, apologies in advance.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

Can I take it that what you are saying in your two posts is that while MR is not a recognized as one of the "arts", it can still be an artistic expression. As a side though, I almost entered a diorama in a local art show. My wife, who is the president of the local art association, and has an MFA from UCLA, had no problem with the submission. (I just didn't , Git er done.)

Yep! Most people who are outside the hobby woudn't list it as an art. Most people who know the hobby and what it entails certainly would. Too bad you didn't get the diorama done for the show I bet it would have been the hit! [:D]

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

Can I take it that what you are saying in your two posts is that while MR is not a recognized as one of the "arts", it can still be an artistic expression. As a side though, I almost entered a diorama in a local art show. My wife, who is the president of the local art association, and has an MFA from UCLA, had no problem with the submission. (I just didn't , Git er done.)

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

Chip, I guess I was refering to Brakie's statement. And I think we would both agree that "Art" does require a great deal of knowlege! If my "hobby" was painting still lifes, I would be considered an "artist" (at least if I was any good at it). If my "hobby" was acting in local theater, I might be considered an "artist". If I sing in church, I am considered an "artist", but if my hobby is creating a model railroad, I'm "playing" with trains. I was trying to show a broad view of what the arts are. At least as a professional musician, that has become my view.

[Anonymous]

D... interesting thread guys !

I, FWIW, see Art as a form of human expression where the medium, be it image, sound, or whatever, is given more emphasize than the message itself (must be the french speaking here :-)

My point is the artist doesn't (shouldn't ?) say : 'hey folks, look at WHAT I'am saying' but rather 'hey, look HOW I said (figured) this or that'
This leads me to the other point I find important in Art, and modelling is included, IMHO : it should make people feel good or, at least, better

We all know that our RR don't want to show misery, death, etc...
They may evoke these accessorily (depression era layouts, war time ops), but seldom focuse on them, instead they show that life, and thus hope, keeps going.

I find the most moving paintings or movies about war and other catastrophes, to be those which don't directly throw blood and guts in your face, but rather evoke the small candle ligth that keeps on burning amid much anger and confusion
RR modelling, with its simple vignettes, modest pace, everyday life images conveys the same kind of idea, in my humble opinion.

An other reason why modelling is a form of Art to me is that it tries to represent the beauty of creation, and the world is really a piece of Art, AFAIC.

My other rationale is that RR modeling makes people to know better each others.
I found out the US were a country and culture that deserved attention, by learning (this is a ongoing process) their RR History, which leaded me to study their 'general' History.

This is how I found out that this country was really BUILT, often amid harsh difficulties, not GIVEN to, along with air conditioned cars, jet aircrafts, satelite broadcasting,etc...

As far as I know, Art is something that can make people live better themselves and together, and it is exactly what RR modelling, in its modest role, does, according to me :-)

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

It's like arranging a towel on a chair or putting a cow in alcohol or splashing paint on a canvas: the ACT of writing the train orders is your artistic expression. It's not the resulting order, its the way you write it. The train order becomes an existentialist expression of the fundamental cosmic truth of time versus substance. A pithy yet somehow profound examination of the inner expression of an outer quest for symmetry and perfection in all things mundane. Through the breathtaking simplicity of pencil on paper you break through to a new perspective on the dilemma of blah blah blah blah

[bow][bow][bow][:D][:D][:D][bow][bow][bow]

[robengland]

It's like arranging a towel on a chair or putting a cow in alcohol or splashing paint on a canvas: the ACT of writing the train orders is your artistic expression. It's not the resulting order, its the way you write it. The train order becomes an existentialist expression of the fundamental cosmic truth of time versus substance. A pithy yet somehow profound examination of the inner expression of an outer quest for symmetry and perfection in all things mundane. Through the breathtaking simplicity of pencil on paper you break through to a new perspective on the dilemma of blah blah blah blah

[SpaceMouse]

Rob,

I play with trains all the time. Going to play tonight at the club. But first I have to write train orders for three passenger trains. Should I put little squiggly lines on them and make them artistic?

[robengland]

Frank Ellison was professionally involved in theatre I think. he certainly considered train operations as art. His schedules were deliberately choreographed for the visual impact of the result.

Now if i spend more time bildin' and less time filosofizin' I might get to a point where I can think about that kind of thing.

But I can't resist....

Relating to several of the people on this thread, I came to MR from the attraction of the hobby not the attraction of trains, though that has come with time. And I come from an engineer's perspective of art. I can see the art in a 747 or a bridge. Or an NZR Ja class 4-8-2.

MR is much like sculpture: kinetic sculpture of course. Or perhaps the better analogy is Coyote's (and Ellison's): theatre. There are lots of basic technical skills you need and lots of grunt work needs to be done to get the artistic result. MR is right at the extreme end of the scale of the technology and skills (and time and patience) you need to apply to get the artistic result. For me, that's much of the appeal.

For what it's worth, here's a philosophy of MR that I have posted here before but I think it fits:

The South Pacific Lines seeks to be:
Reliable
This is the foundation principle. SPL needs to work flawlessly, or as close as we can get. “Like a Swiss watch”. Operating is no fun if things go wrong, nor is just showing off our work to visitors. I have no patience for things that don’t work. Personally, getting things smooth does not give me great pleasure for its own sake, but failing to do so destroys the pleasure I get from the next principles:
Intricate
The purist simplicity of, for example, David Barrow’s recent work is interesting, but it does not attract me. Except where it makes reliability unobtainable, the SPL will showcase intricate systems like signalling and car forwarding operations, and intricate lighting and scenic super-detailing.
Representational
If we are ever to finish SPL, we must limit the Intricacy principle with a “good enough” principle. The SPL is allowed to be representational rather than realistic where it suits us. Rolling stock does not have to be super detailed, some of the trees will not bear close examination, plastic building kits are OK.
Believable
Representational is OK, so long as the overall effect is believable. One thing we do not seek is to be prototypical: the SPL exists in a mythical parallel universe, as can be seen from the scene-setting scenario. We can do anything we want: in effect there is no prototype. We are modelling American railroading set down in 1970s New Zealand. The result must be believable: it could have happened that way; given the scenario, it might have looked like that.
Clever
The elegance of a well-thought-out solution; the use of good research; the application of knowledge; great engineering; cool ideas. These are all things that make a model railroad attractive or admirable to me
Beautiful
The SPL should be attractive or admirable to all who see it. I believe that in essence model railroading is an art form as much as it is a toy. It is a means of self-expression for me. It is a kinetic sculpture that is also great to play with. Like all art, it needs form, balance, skill and theme.

You will not agree with all my principles but it is good to come up with your own to keep you on track. Chip, or Coyote, you might call out "Artistic" specifically as a principle. Chip would have "Appealing for my son" in there as a basic principle. [I don't because I built him his own railroad - a thread on that coming soon.

Last comment: absolutely I am "playing with trains". I do it for fun, for escape, as much as for expression. There is no shame in playing: more grownups should do it.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

Very,very, interesting thread. Especially if you are a bit of an old philosopher! Art is not one thing but many. "Art doesn't move"? Ballet is an art last time I checked. Cinema is an art form. Animation is an art form. Music is an Art that involves moving (as in movement) a theme from one point in time to another. The definition most often used today for music is, "organized sound". Sound by it's nature has to unfold over time. I see nothing in model railroading that does not involve the arts at least at some level. That includes operations (aka choreography as in ballet). My sister, the artist and Art teacher, loves my RR layout and considers it some of the best example of artisic expression she has seen. A level of skill is inherent in all the arts. My sister had to learn to use a welder in college in order to pass a sculpture course. And the list could go on, and on. There is no fine line that seperates an art from the rest of life. I certainly see my MR as an artistic expression of who I am.

I don't think anyone here is putting a restriction on movement.

To me the distiction ast to whether your layout is art is whether you stay true to your vision and abilities or whether you have a low threshold of goodnuff.

[howmus]

Very,very, interesting thread. Especially if you are a bit of an old philosopher! Art is not one thing but many. "Art doesn't move"? Ballet is an art last time I checked. Cinema is an art form. Animation is an art form. Music is an Art that involves moving (as in movement) a theme from one point in time to another. The definition most often used today for music is, "organized sound". Sound by it's nature has to unfold over time. I see nothing in model railroading that does not involve the arts at least at some level. That includes operations (aka choreography as in ballet). My sister, the artist and Art teacher, loves my RR layout and considers it some of the best example of artisic expression she has seen. A level of skill is inherent in all the arts. My sister had to learn to use a welder in college in order to pass a sculpture course. And the list could go on, and on. There is no fine line that seperates an art from the rest of life. I certainly see my MR as an artistic expression of who I am.

grandpacoyote, thanks for a wonderfully insightful and thoughtful thread!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote
Chip,
Well said my friend, some excellant insight and points there yourself. (ah my what a fine mutual admiration society we have going here [;)][(-D]) I see your point on doing it for ourselves and yes where to some extent all artists do have a market/audiance, I think that the most fufilling art, hoby or craft is done for oneself and ones own sense of personal accomplishment and fufillment of ones own personal desire or vision.

I think the more artistic you are, the harder it is to acheive the state of just doing it for oneself. Art begs for an audience as well as the artists needing accolades. It is the sole reason we have such a popular Photo Fun post.

[davekelly]

Chip,

How can we disagree? We both love this hobby!! That's what is the most important thing!

Dave

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

Dave,

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

To me artistic expression is manifestation of a creative vision not a mechanical process. I suppose you could relate it to the choreographing of a dance. But I'm not sure many take it to that level.

Chip,

Man, I just knew that someone would call me on that! [(-D][(-D] My wife would say that my view on "art" is probably due to some childhood trauma or perhaps because my undergrad degree is in mechanical engineering. I agree with you that "artistic expression is the manifestation of a creative vision." But I see the Wright Flyer, the first internal combustion engine and the Brooklyn Bridge as creative visions brought to life, and thus art. (Heck, I can see art in benchwork and a handlayed turnout.) Art, to me, evokes an emotional response. Yes, a fully sceniced layout does evoke such as response, and thus is art, but to me it is not a "completed" work until the trains are moving. If the creative vision is one of a miniature world with trains moving passengers and goods from place to place, can the manifestation of this vision be complete without the trains moving and operating?

I do not see the operations of our trains as a mechanical process. To me, a mechanical process is "if you do A to B, then the result is C." Same thing, everytime. Put a boxcar on the top of a grade, let go and it will roll down hill (unless I've worked on the trucks). Part of the art in constructing a layout is to get the observer to see a realistic world. Operations is the same. The observer sees bits of metal and plastic (and electrons) as a real train, moving real cargo to real customer. Yes, there are those that will say that "no it's not art, it is the result of research and is simply copying the full size to the miniature" but isn't that what we do when we recreate, say, Raton Pass, or Chicago's Dearborn Station?

Speaking of mechanical processes not being art, is a beautiful painting done using a paint by number kit art? Or is it a mechanical process ("put red paint on the "13", blue paint on the "12's"")? Is photography an art? Or is it a mechanical process (if I set up the camera the same as Ansel Adams I'll get the same result)? I'm sure these two have the potential of being debated until the cows come home!

Of course, I guess, as in lots of things, art is in the eyes of the beholder!

Dave

P.S. I admitted to being a train dweeb on another thread, I guess I've just admitted to being an engineering geek here![:)][:)][:)]

I don't think we disagree here.

[tatans]

Brakie; Poetry IS art. I Paint watercolors, mostly old houses, I was at a large art show with my paintings and noticed a woman staring at a painting of an old house, she stared for a long time as I approached her she was crying, she said the painting was exactly like her Grandmothers house and she said she was walking through the house, room by room and could actually smell the wonderful smells from the house, I knew I had painted a winner---art doesn't move???? tell her that ! By the way this is a wonderful forum.

[selector]

Chip, I understand your reply to Grandpa C, and your use, specifically, of the word 'integrity.' I would have used the word "complete" to describe the former modeller, Allen, and, in the Zen of our hobby, that word is an apt demarcator, as well as metaphor for our mutual acknowledgement that a layout is never.... In that sense, few modelers are complete.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sorry guys I don't subscribe to the thought that model railroading is a art by any definition..No,I see model railroading as poetry in motion.That is to say it has a rhyme and reason for moving trains..Art? No art doesn't move nor does it require any great knowledge unless one happens to be a art dealer or collector.

Brakie,

I can certainly respect your position, but I must say nothing sounds more artfull to me than the expression "poetry in motion" [:D]. I would disagree a bit in that I think art does require a great deal of knowledge at least of techinque at the minimun.[;)]
Thanks for the input though its all great stuff, hearing from the base of opinions and wisdom we have available to us here on our forums.

Peace.
Coyote

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

Dave,

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

To me artistic expression is manifestation of a creative vision not a mechanical process. I suppose you could relate it to the choreographing of a dance. But I'm not sure many take it to that level.

Chip,

Man, I just knew that someone would call me on that! [(-D][(-D] My wife would say that my view on "art" is probably due to some childhood trauma or perhaps because my undergrad degree is in mechanical engineering. I think it is my total inability to make realistic looking scenery that has forced me to see "art" in other facets of this hobby! [:-^][:D]

I agree with you that "artistic expression is the manifestation of a creative vision." But I see the Wright Flyer, the first internal combustion engine and the Brooklyn Bridge as creative visions brought to life, and thus art. (Heck, I can see art in benchwork and a handlayed turnout.) Art, to me, evokes an emotional response. Yes, a fully sceniced layout does evoke such as response, and thus is art, but to me it is not a "completed" work until the trains are moving. If the creative vision is one of a miniature world with trains moving passengers and goods from place to place, can the manifestation of this vision be complete without the trains moving and operating?

I do not see the operations of our trains as a mechanical process. To me, a mechanical process is "if you do A to B, then the result is C." Same thing, everytime. Put a boxcar on the top of a grade, let go and it will roll down hill (unless I've worked on the trucks). Part of the art in constructing a layout is to get the observer to see a realistic world. Operations is the same. The observer sees bits of metal and plastic (and electrons) as a real train, moving real cargo to real customer. Yes, there are those that will say that "no it's not art, it is the result of research and is simply copying the full size to the miniature" but isn't that what we do when we recreate, say, Raton Pass, or Chicago's Dearborn Station?

Speaking of mechanical processes not being art, is a beautiful painting done using a paint by number kit art? Or is it a mechanical process ("put red paint on the "13", blue paint on the "12's"")? Is photography an art? Or is it a mechanical process (if I set up the camera the same as Ansel Adams I'll get the same result)? I'm sure these two have the potential of being debated until the cows come home!

Of course, I guess, as in lots of things, art is in the eyes of the beholder!

Dave

P.S. I admitted to being a train dweeb on another thread, I guess I've just admitted to being an engineering geek here![:)][:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

GC,

I re-read your commentary and I have a comment. I too came to the hobby not so much from the standpoint of fascination with trains (which I have been developing) but from the standpoint as developing a hobby that 1) I can share with my son. 2) Allows creative expression.

When we take Model Railroading to an art form, and I'm not saying we shouldn't by the way, a shift occurs. A visual artist paints so that people can see their work. A writer writes for others and an actor performs for others. Rare indeed it the artist that isn't looking for accolades. It is what drives us as artists forward to find new and exciting frontiers in art.

So when we create our art in the form of a basement empire we are by default limiting our audience to people we can drag down or viewers of the Photo Funs.

With Model Railroading, then we have to grow as artists to create for ourselves. Yes, this is different from the modelers that "only do it for themselves" and do not push for creative excellence. We have to build it, and know that unlike the Cosner movie, no one will come. Unless, of course, you build in a high level of operational ability, and get on a circuit or form you own operational team.

This is where John Allen excelled, and where Malcolm Furlow falls short. Obviously, Furlow is the artist (and artist in profession) that has no operational sessions, whereas Allen delighted in sharing his creation with operators and the rest of the world through networking, photos and articles. Furlow then, would have to have evolved to the point of excellence for himself alone to create such a fantastic layout so far removed from civilization.

So to go the Allen you need both the artistic skills and patience, and you need the working knowledge of both what a railroad does and a sense of what makes "playing with trains" fun. I get satisfaction from building a building, weathering it and creating a scene, but it does not compare to the fun of having my son run his train to the station, tell his passengers to get off, then drive them to the bridge, stop and tell them to view the sights of Train City.

To make everything work, you need to create a mini-universe where every bush, rock building and detail has a purpose. Every figure is a person with a role to play. And every industry is linked to the "universe" and beyond through a commerce system.

A large task to accomplish.

Chip,
Well said my friend, some excellant insight and points there yourself. (ah my what a fine mutual admiration society we have going here [;)][(-D]) I see your point on doing it for ourselves and yes where to some extent all artists do have a market/audiance, I think that the most fufilling art, hoby or craft is done for oneself and ones own sense of personal accomplishment and fufillment of ones own personal desire or vision.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Yall are usin WAY too much brains. Go run your trains and have fun.

Every once in a while I have to take my brains out and blow the dust out of them. Now, how about them Steelers.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dommegr

Chip, creating a context for operations is always going to be in the eye of the person creating the context and running those operations.

Look at Pelle Soeberg's layout. His layout actually takes you to a place in Southern California. That's right for him and what he wanted to accomplish on his layout and while the results are nothing short of spectacular, how does it differ from the guy who builds a simple oval and puts nothing but a single tree and an ashtray in the middle of it? While the end results visually are very different, the operation of the trains remains the same.

Greg

The difference is in the integrety f the artist.

Now what I mean by this has nothing to do with skill level, and it is entirely possible that the guy with the ashtray and Soeberg have the same level of integrity. So what do I mean by integrity?

Integrity in this sense is manifesting the greatest level of creative expression that he is capable of, which could be limited either by vision or abilities. This level of integrity is what distiguishes the artist from the model railroad builder. Their motives may be at cross purposes, but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

This is not to say that an operator has no artistic integrety, just that his interests may lie in another direction. And again, you can do both. Some people believe that there two types of model railroaders, operators scenery people. I'm not one of them.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Ditto's to the above. Maybe Coyote should apply for the editor position, but then he would have to move to cold Milwaukee.

Great introspect of the hobby. And I agree with others, many look at us like we are men still longing for a childhood, but I feel we are taking the scenes, operations, modeling to a level that many can't or won't do because of a preconcived notion that they can't or would be embarassed to try.

It's funny. I mention I have a model railroad to friends or when I was running a business my hobby, and I was amazed at the response from the male population. They also liked trains, had one or always wanted too. Hmmm, I would bet this hobby would be larger, if we only could find the key to unlock and bring them all in.

Thanks again Coyote. Keep the ideas coming...

Milwaukee... brrrrr.. oh no let me keep my Texas warmth, although it often becomes Texas melting [8D]

I think that some people see or Hobby/Art in that light because of the assocation they make with toys, yet what is the probelm with toys and play, we can dress it up however we like but at a certain level they are toys (ahh I can hear the gnashing of teeth now, sorry friends really), however what is Theater but 'play pretending', dance is.. well dance [:)] people tell my Mother who has had quilt exibited in a collection at the Smithsonian that she is "just sewing". Someone somewhere is always going to find a snippy perspective on the insperation, love, craft and hard work of others.... Water off a ducks back is my moto.

I do agree though it would be a fine day if we could find the key that opens the door of 'allowance' that would let so many who'd love to join in the Hobby/Art but don't currently because of some silly fear of the judgements of others. But then I fear it is the same for all expresive matters, I know far too many people who have fine voices who would never sing anywhere but the showers (glances at his own OL).

Thanks for the feedback

Peace.
Coyote

[Anonymous]

Yall are usin WAY too much brains. Go run your trains and have fun.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DavidJ611

Coyote,

I really enjoyed reading your musings. Ditto all the positive comments already expressed. I think (IMHO) that your thoughtful and well composed editorial above is worthy of the glossy-print pages of our forum's gracious host. [8D][tup]

...MR editorial staff, are you 'listening'[?]

-Dave

Dave,

[:D] thank you! But I am far and away from being accomplished enough for such a fine publication.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

Many often assume us model railroaders are "just running toy trains" as noted. This does not apply in my case, as I do not have a layout to run trains on. My choice is a pair of modules that I operate with our local club only a few times a year. My main interest and focus has been model making - I have shelves full of my models, many more still in boxes and many projects still in my head.

For me it is a creative outlet, just like my photography. And I get to combine the two interests in one by taking photos of my models and sharing them with others.

So for me I don't "play with trains", I make scale models of railroad equipment and scenes.

And it's fun too![:D]

Bob Boudreau

Amen Bob, and the fun of it is the thing, imho, when you enjoy what you craft/create/make then the world opens up, too many of us are or have been stuck in the unfortuante position of doing something that we not onlt do not love but actually hate or find mind numbing or even soul crushing. Keep up the fun and enjoy.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KenLarsen

Coyote,
Excellent editorial! I often have thoughts like that running thru my mind, especially when mowing my lawn, driving long distances, or attending business meetings.

Same here Ken, this one overcame while being in a position of forced to sit and 'enjoy' being on vicodin, after a minor out patient surgery. Oh well at least I got something done besides drooling on myself [(-D]. Thank you for the positive feedback.

[Adelie]

All of this and we have not even touched the idea that "a model railroad is never really completed" and how that relates. Is the fact that the reinvention, refinement or complete change of sections of an apparently finished product part of the art? In some cases, this change is the result of a better operational plan or technical product. But in others it is change for change sake, more or less. Why did I tear out that section of secenery and redo it....because it was there, in a sense.

Part of the allure of this hobby to me is that it offers something for my every mood. It covers the gamut from technical to creative.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

I worried (slightly) about people's perception that I was "only playing with trains" and came up with an answer.
I have a large, terminal type RR but the only part of it that's even partially sceniced is the upper level passenger depot and yards that take up a total of 49 ft of wall w/ a right angle bend in the middle. I model the 1945-55 period and if I were ever to get any patronizing comments my answer would be along the lines of:
"If I had made a 2 dimensional, static representation of America at the height of it's industrial development in oils or acrylics covering an area 4 ft high and 50 ft long would you have thought it childish? Well then, if you think a three dimensional, kinescetic, multi media reprentation of the same thing is childish, is the problem the scene being viewed or your perception of it?"
Unfortunately I've never had occasion to use it, but should the occasion arise, I'm ready!

Jim,

[:D] Great story.. keep it handy you never know it might come be very usefull someday. Keep 'em flying. [tup]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sunsetbeachry

GRANDPA.......................................Thank you for putting into words exactally how I feel about this great hobby Thank you and God bless

Sunset,

Thank you for your blessings, glad you enjoyed my crazed ramblings [;)]

Coyote

[dommegr]

Chip, creating a context for operations is always going to be in the eye of the person creating the context and running those operations.

Look at Pelle Soeberg's layout. His layout actually takes you to a place in Southern California. That's right for him and what he wanted to accomplish on his layout and while the results are nothing short of spectacular, how does it differ from the guy who builds a simple oval and puts nothing but a single tree and an ashtray in the middle of it? While the end results visually are very different, the operation of the trains remains the same.

Greg

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

Dave,

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

To me artistic expression is manifestation of a creative vision not a mechanical process. I suppose you could relate it to the choreographing of a dance. But I'm not sure many take it to that level.