Refelection on our hobby and art, rather long, apologies in advance.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm



I have to put in my personal opinion of the ultimate Renaissance man. Benjamin Franklin. Writer, Publisher, Statesman, Inventor of the air tight stove and bifocals and scientific theorist, investment counsler.

And if he hadn't invented electricity we'd be running our model railroads with wind-up keys. (Just tying that back to model railroading as art.)

[nbrodar]

As often stated, beauity is in the eye of the beholder. Some, like Tony Koester, see the operation as the highest form of art. Others, like Malcom Furlow, soaring scenery is the ultimate goal. Whose right. They both are.

As a professional railroader, I know that operation is art, particularly switching. Watching a skilled switch crew classify cars, or service customers is like watching an intricate ballet. There is also no denying that imaging and building a miniature landscape requires creativity.

Whether, realistic or whimsy, the layout is your expression of the model world. And that is the truest of arts.

Nick Brodar

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

There was a great editorial from Terry Thompson shortly after he took over at MR mag, about how the model railroader is the modern Renaissance man. The term refers to someone who has interests in many things instead of being too specialist. Much as we have been slagging Michelangelo, he was as much a sculptor as a painter. But the term refers more to the likes of Isaac Newton, who did great things in mathematics and physics but also investigated spiritualism and all sorts of other stuff, or of course the ultimate Renaissance man, Leonardo da Vinci. I describe myself at work as "broad and shallow" which is as much a reference to my physique as to my knowledge base [:D] It's the same with this hobby. Dig up Terry's editorial, he said it quite well. We can dabble in historical research or welding, backdrop painting or fine tuning couplers, modelling trees or soldering electronics, railfanning or casting plastics, super-detailing or collecting plastic toys, photography or operating....

I have to put in my personal opinion of the ultimate Renaissance man. Benjamin Franklin. Writer, Publisher, Statesman, Inventor of the air tight stove and bifocals and scientific theorist, investment counsler.

[SpaceMouse]

or surreal to sublime

[robengland]

so freelancing is to realistic prototype modelling as painting is to photography

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by whitman500

I had a somewhat different take on the model railroading as art form. I think a big part of what defines art is the appreciation for the aesthetic. This is what allows photography to be considered an art since the photographer, while not creating the image, is selecting an image from the real world that has aesthetic value and that he, as the artist, is able to see.

By this definition, I would argue that in some ways the current trend towards modeling the prototype versus freelancing is undermining model railroading as art. By placing realism above all other concerns, we constrain our ability to pursue the aesthetic. A layout that is visually stunning because of its combination of mountains, plains and shorelines is denigrated for not matching real world topography. I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that a layout can be beautiful (and therefore an art form) without being realistic.

I would almost agree with that except, that since you cannot model 1:1, you must pick and choose what to model. You have to pick what will represent the whole at the same time give the illusion that it is all inclusive. If modeling the whole by representation is not art, well...

[whitman500]

I had a somewhat different take on the model railroading as art form. I think a big part of what defines art is the appreciation for the aesthetic. This is what allows photography to be considered an art since the photographer, while not creating the image, is selecting an image from the real world that has aesthetic value and that he, as the artist, is able to see.

By this definition, I would argue that in some ways the current trend towards modeling the prototype versus freelancing is undermining model railroading as art. By placing realism above all other concerns, we constrain our ability to pursue the aesthetic. A layout that is visually stunning because of its combination of mountains, plains and shorelines is denigrated for not matching real world topography. I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that a layout can be beautiful (and therefore an art form) without being realistic.

[robengland]

There was a great editorial from Terry Thompson shortly after he took over at MR mag, about how the model railroader is the modern Renaissance man. The term refers to someone who has interests in many things instead of being too specialist. Much as we have been slagging Michelangelo, he was as much a sculptor as a painter. But the term refers more to the likes of Isaac Newton, who did great things in mathematics and physics but also investigated spiritualism and all sorts of other stuff, or of course the ultimate Renaissance man, Leonardo da Vinci. I describe myself at work as "broad and shallow" which is as much a reference to my physique as to my knowledge base [:D] It's the same with this hobby. Dig up Terry's editorial, he said it quite well. We can dabble in historical research or welding, backdrop painting or fine tuning couplers, modelling trees or soldering electronics, railfanning or casting plastics, super-detailing or collecting plastic toys, photography or operating....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly
[ Michelangelo only had to do one physical skill, dip the brush into the paint and dab it on the roof - heck he didn't even have to sit, he did it laying down! [:D]

Seems to me that I read somewhere that he didn't do much of the actual painting himself, but directed his helpers what to do. Sort of like a railroad dispatcher!

Bob Boudreau

[robengland]

I agree about Michelangelo, that's why model railroaders are much more versatile broadly-skilled Renaissance persons than he was [(-D][:-^] I bet he didn't even assemble his own scaffolds

[davekelly]

I don't know. I think some of the computer modeling I've seen is quite fascinating, not my cup of tea, but impressive all the same. Remember, we could easily say that in painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo only had to do one physical skill, dip the brush into the paint and dab it on the roof - heck he didn't even have to sit, he did it laying down! [:D]

[robengland]

Sorry mac4884 but I beg to differ. Any computer-based activity requires only one physical skill: sitting still and clicking a mouse. Sure there are a wide range of mental skills, as there are in MR, but MR requires us to also be physically adept at sculpting, painting, soldering, drilling, carving, assembling, cutting, gluing, sanding, hammering, coupling, re-railing .................................... No comparison.

[Anonymous]

Actually rtesta try 3-D computer graphics. To make a scene requires(respectivly) designing, modeling, detailing, texturing, rigging, framing, animating, lighting, dynamics(effects), & rendering, Whereas model railroading takes planning & research, designing & fitting, benckwork, laying down track, wiring & lights, adding roads, scenery, detailing, weathering, & operation. Art is an expression of yourself, in the case of model railroading, in a layout.

[rtesta]

At the risk of being redundant, (I didnt have time to read all this yet!) model railroading is the best medium for mixing art with engineering. While we dont all enjoy all aspects of this art/engineering process it is hard to completely seperate the two. Just as real rr's abound in engineering marvels, from all disciplines ME, EE, CE etc, Model Railroading offers a taste of each to those who wi***o "go there". I love the engineering of a grade or track planning as well as wiring a tortoise, as well as ballasting and weathering or building hills; you get the point.

No other modeling art form, such as planes, ships (even RC ones that fly/swim) doll houses, RC cars or making clay pots provides such a complete and complex list of disiplines ready for the taking. Personally, I thrive on the process of engineering and the execution of the art!

bobt

[loathar]

Dull coat stops reflection and let's you get on with running your trains.[}:)]( sorry Grandpa, I had to say that). Vicoden, Huh? I had a lot of time to reflect when I had Shingles about a year ago.Try staying awake for 3 or 4 days staight because of the pain and all you reflect on is what caliber round your going to blow your brains out with if the pain doesn't stop. I do get your point though. Such deep thought just gets me in trouble.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DavidJ611

Coyote,

I really enjoyed reading your musings. Ditto all the positive comments already expressed. I think (IMHO) that your thoughtful and well composed editorial above is worthy of the glossy-print pages of our forum's gracious host. [8D][tup]

...MR editorial staff, are you 'listening'[?]

-Dave

Coyote:

So glad I found this thread. This has been a great read. I second, whole heartedly, Daves suggestion of having this published in the MR.
I agree with others that something of these thoughts have occured to me in days past when, one particularly good friend, found it "fun" to denegrate my hobbie to 'playing with childrens toys'.
When I went into detail as to all of the different talents that are included in this hobby, he admitted that none of this thinking had ever entered his head. My friend will never pick up a copy of MR, but there will be many first timers/newbies who, having read your article, will find it a hobbie that can be filled with many challenges.
Admittedly, I fall short of excellence in many of the 'art' forms that collectively make up our hobbie, but that is where the formation of a 'club' can be very helpful and fulfilling.
Trying to identify the 'feelings' that your article has generated, for me, I wonder what kind of a thread could be generated on the thought of expressing how each of us was drawn into the hobbie.

Thanks again, Coyote.

[underworld]

Everything exists for itself,
yet everything is a part of something else.
The one and the many contain in themselves the principles of time and space.
The way up and the way down are one in the same.

underworld

[selector]

Model railroading as art....I wish I could remember that wonderful photo that Joe posted for us with the dieself in morning fog. Joe, if you are keeping an eye on this post, please post it again. Then we'll talk artistry.

[grayfox1119]

Coyote....excellent job of summing up all the talents and expressions that make up this great hobby. We may not possess strong talents in all areas, but we ENJOY what we do as we learn, and take pride in seeing results. After working 48 years in industry, I realized what was missing all those years, AFTER I retired and began MRR again after a long hiatus....it was never seeing the final product, a result after a days work. I only saw the small piece of what my group did, and later in management there was even less satisfaction. We all need to see the fruits of our labor, what WE create.
My talent lies in electronics and wiring, soldering, and photography. I will need to learn the art of landscaping and creating scenes in my layout, but I will see the results of what I do and the feeling of my accomplishment. We all need this, especially in todays world.
Great job Grandpa Coyote

[robengland]

Chip, "But no one was out there". LMAO!!!

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

It was a total zoo. It was art alright--like a 5th grade orchestra playing a Debussey symphony.

Hey, ya gotta start somewhere....... [:D] Even at Eastman, we had to practice again and again to get it right!

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

Just go and watch some people operate. Last week we had a bunch of out of town model railroaders come up to operate our local layouts. I was there to help out in case someone got into a jam. I watched one crew spend about 10 extra moves on what I would have considered a fairly simple run around. They were pleased as punch to get the job done, but they definitely did not have any "Poetry in Motion". Some people can just see the flow of a switching puzzle while others have to analyze it to get it done.

Then take the road action. I'll bet most of our regular operators have not pulled off a 100% moving pass. But last Christmas for our public show we had an 8 car El Capitan pass the facing City of Los Angeles (12 cars) with neither train having to stop. The siding was only about 15 cars long. It was quite amazing and even got some OOhs and AAHs from the audience. It was "poetry in motion" but unfortunately I didn't catch it on tape.

TZ,

You should have see it at our club tonight. It was our first time using a dispatcher and radios and the first time many people had run assigned routes. You would hear stuff like.

Hey dispatcher I'm in Derry, what do I do now?

Who is this?

This is, uh, 69.

Conrail 69 nine you were only cleared to Blairsville.

But no one was out there.

Okay, hold the main at Derry.

Can I go to to Latrobe?

No, hold the main at Derry.

Why?

Conrail 69 hold the main at Derry and repeat the order.

Okay, I'm holding.

That guy's call sign was changed to P.I.T.A. Others were near as bad.

It was a total zoo. It was art alright--like a 5th grade orchestra playing a Debussey symphony.

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
I thought everyone came to model railroading for the same reason I did, to meet chicks. Actually, the only girls I've ever met who were interested in trains were mothers of kids who'd come into The Great Train Store for Thomas items or girlfriends of guys who came in. It was watching the Thomas videos that I first decided that this was art. Those videos' layouts were great!
Art is in the eye of the beholder, they say, and I'd agree that the pull of model railroading comes from different quarters for everyone. Malcolm Furlow seems to have liked diarama building. Works for me, because Furlow and others have built small depictions which can become real when you look at them. Heck, Cmdr. Warren Morgan made Lionel trains appear to be real in the 1940s with scenery techniques which were truly ancient by modern standards. Why? Because when done well, the whole becomes more than the sum of its parts. It makes me wonder if an "impressionist" railroad could be built. A diarama builder might try; I doubt if a model rail trying to fill a whole room would be able to and still run the trains in his lifetime.
To me, model railroading, like any hobby, is made fun by having friends enjoy the same thing and participate in it with you. That pretty much demands actual railroading with each guy or girl in one job and pretending to be working on a real railroad. Once again, if it is done right, it seems that the whole of this is more than the sum of its parts.
But I sure do like those Furlow diaramas.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Can there not be art in the operations and not just the scenery?

I won't rule out the possibility, but can you explain how?

Here I am distinguishing operations from creating a context for the operations. Certainly I see creation of a mini-universe as art. But I am having difficulty seeing the moving of trains, the "Poetry in Motion" as Brakie puts it as art. I probably just need to be educated.

Just go and watch some people operate. Last week we had a bunch of out of town model railroaders come up to operate our local layouts. I was there to help out in case someone got into a jam. I watched one crew spend about 10 extra moves on what I would have considered a fairly simple run around. They were pleased as punch to get the job done, but they definitely did not have any "Poetry in Motion". Some people can just see the flow of a switching puzzle while others have to analyze it to get it done.

Then take the road action. I'll bet most of our regular operators have not pulled off a 100% moving pass. But last Christmas for our public show we had an 8 car El Capitan pass the facing City of Los Angeles (12 cars) with neither train having to stop. The siding was only about 15 cars long. It was quite amazing and even got some OOhs and AAHs from the audience. It was "poetry in motion" but unfortunately I didn't catch it on tape.

[Paul W. Beverung]

Coyote: Great thread! I think that the debate about MRRing being an art form has been going on for along time. I openion is on the aide of art form. The work that we do is certainly more meaningful than some of the things that I've seen prsented as art.

Chip: Put me down for one of those books when you get it in print. Maybe you and Coyote get together on it?

Coyote: I've got to call you soon.

[Anonymous]

Up until about ten years ago I had always worked with my hands. I always was interested in trains, I can never remember feeling put out sitting at a crossing waiting for the road to clear. But the reason I told myself I was getting into model railroading was to fix things. It really is a good feeling to see the tangible result of your labors. Paperwork is not as rewarding taking something broken and making it work. But now I am finding that the artistic part of the hobby is both the hardest and the most fun.

My first trip into an art museum was when I was 19, I took a girl [;)] from Art History class to the Cincinnati Art Museum. I spent the day obsessing over a statute they had near the entrance way that was labeled "Heifer". Now I grew up on a farm and I knew what a great job the ancient artiest did carving the animal out of a block of stone. Ribs, hair, ears, nose, hooves the detail was amazing. My problem was that it was obviously and old herd cow not a heifer. It was like they labeled a coaling station and water tower as a diesel maintenance area. I felt so bad for the craftsman who had so accurately carved the animal thousands of years ago. He knew his subject and had all the skills needed to model it correctly. Even if the people putting it on display would not know the difference between a bull and a heifer they recognized his skill.

Isn't that what we strive for? To accurately represent a scene so that if an old railroad man came in he would instantly know it and to do it so skilfully that any fool off the street will be impressed?

Over the weekend I was working on my layout, on a rural siding and I went to the Walthers site and searched for bumpers. The ones I was familiar with just did not seem right for the scene. They did not "feel" like rural southern Ohio. Even though the old Atlas bumper or the wheel stops at the local grain elevator would fit my era they would not give it the flavor I wanted.

I think all of us qualify as artists. Any time we try our best to realistically model a time and place with display pieces, dioramas or layouts we are making art. Some of us have training. Some of us are "Outsiders" with no formal training but a lot of ingenuity and desire. But I think we are all artists.

Some of the work I have seen here and at the train show after the NMRA convention could easily go in a museam. A lot of it could. I don't know if it ever will but I think an enlightened curator could see qualities in much of your work that would rate a showing in their institution.

[MisterBeasley]

Let's return to the stage for a reprise of Coyote's original premise. One of the great reasons for the immortality of Shakespeare's plays is the sparseness of the stage directions and settings, often limited to the little more than the entrances and exits of the "poor players who strut and fret their hour upon the stage." While some of the vocabulary has been obscured by time, the plays have withstood its ravages by their language alone. Thus, we can present Macbeth in an urban ghetto, Richard the Third on a World War One battlefield, and A Midsummer Night's Dream on bicycles. The setting, while thought provoking, is ultimately unimportant.

The model railroad layout is the other side of the see-saw. Here, we have a setting. Instead of "the play's the thing," we have the emphasis placed on the stage itself. Kings and commoners, locos and cabooses, all pass through the stage without affecting its unchanging visage. For some, it is sufficient to have the trains perform "walk-ons," while others choreograph their train movements like a Ballanchine ballet.

As I did in my younger days, my daughter is now part of the school theatrical productions. For months, the young joiners, tailors and weavers build their sets, mend their costumes and study their lines. Finally, there is that one grand weekend of Performance, and then the curtain falls for the last time, the scenery is struck and the lines are forgotten. It's sad that this whole thrilling episode passes so completely from the world, remembered only through recorded images and, of course, our own memories. For us railroaders, though, it's the stage itself that endures.

[tatans]

Why did I start model railroading? hmmmmm. I grew up in a big railway town,and remember an HO display in a dry cleaners window at Christmas time, waiting 25 minutes for a bus at 35 below it was a real treat, my family could never afford to buy me a train set so I figured if I ever get a few bucks together I'll try it, 50 years later here I am buying tons of used stuff from the rich guys who sell it to buy more new stuff (thanks guys). Why do I do it? It's a lot of fun ! ! and it keeps me sane, and keeps the creative juices flowing plus meeting some great people along the way (along with a few strange ones) I do feel sorry for people that have no interest in anything, they are not very interesting people as you can imagine, ( I have some friends my age who see life through single malt scotch coloured glasses) I guess you could call it art in breaking down all the components, I tend only to refer to it as a lot of fun and very recreational therapy, if you want to call it art, O.K. by me. I also refer to myself as a watercolour painter, if other people want to call me an artist, that's fine too. As you can see this forum has created a lot of intelligent responses.

[conford]

What an interesting post. It is certainly thought provoking, and I will try to summarize my thoughts, probably in fragments!

Firstly:"it is a challenge to find the Inner Expression; that process by which the artist takes an inner vision that belongs only to him or her and brings it out of the inner world into the outer world."

As Coyote points out, a good layout tells a story. This story often starts off: "once upon a time in a land far away..." What does this imply about the story we try to tell? That setting in time and place are essential to understanding where the story goes.

As someone who came to the hobby through a lifelong love of trains, my layout is about trains. In my dreams I sometimes return to the land of steam engines -- there they go again -- although they were mostly gone by the time I was 5. At some point I either grasped or understood that I wanted to model the setting of my teen years, Grand Rapids Michigan. I was lucky to live in interesting times, and most anyplace with some track will do for a setting, as long as there is enough track to tell the story.

If you have not had an "anchor" experience -- I just knew where my model railroad would be set -- I suggest that you consider first the place you want to model (what railroads ran there, what is the scenery like, what are the buildings like) and then find an interesting era. Or maybe you want to pick a railroad and work out from there. You have to fit your railroad into the space you have, but consider the recently cited Robert Smaus layout -- he is fitting LA into a garage!

THe stage is a geat analogy for what Model Railroading is about. I see my children playing with the trains and making up their own stories. Or conducting their own experiments. Some people emphasize one aspect of model railroading, like scenery, while others may emphasize another, such as model making or operation. Thus, different analogies may be suitable for different people. As I think of the MRR Stage, it helps me understand the next steps I will take as I prepare to have an operating railroad. It also prompts me to ask who is the audience for our "play"?

The responses to this thread have often been thoughtful, and the suggestion for a book --OK, maybe a pamphlet -- is interesting. Is there a "unified theory of Model Railroading"? I doubt it. There are many ways to think about the hobby, and I have enjoyed this discussion so far.

Thanks for a great thread starter, Coyote!

Regards
conford