U.P. disrespecting United States Flag?

[cspmo]

Is U.P. disrespecting the United States flag by placing it's likeness on the side of their locomotives? There is a quote from rules governing the U.S. Flag.
§176. Respect for flag
"(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. "
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

[Anonymous]

For once, I'm actually *gasp*[:0]NOT going to bash UP.

I don't have a problem with it - I like seeing Old Glory anywhere, as long as it's not being treated disrespectfully, which is not the case here. I don't consider UP using the flag on their engines any different than when BN and WC slapped flag decals on their locos during Gulf War I, putting the flag on fire engines, NFL helmets, people wearing flag pins on their lapels, or putting flags on their cars...looks kinda good to me.

[cspmo]

The difference is that U.P. is using it for advertisment by putting Building America behind it.

[Anonymous]

They apply that same "Building America" slogan to lots of rolling stock that has no flag anywhere on it. The Stars and Stripes on the locos is just an additional adornment...I don't get where you think this is being used as "advertising" - just because of it's proximity to the slogan on the hood? Would you still feel that way if the slogan was located on the cab instead, away from the flag?

Even if it were being used by UP for advertising purposes, which in my opinion it is not, I would find that far, far less offensive than some of the things that are passed off as "art" incorporating the flag.

[AntonioFP45]

I'm with GrayLoess on this one.

I'm very frustrated with a lot of the "anti-American" attitudes that have become prevalent in our society and in fact, poisoning the minds of our youth.

I'm very happy that UP locomotives are wearing the old "Stars and Stripes". Advertising? How? If anything UP has actually been turning away customers.

Some of you might remember that just over a decade Santa Fe Super Fleet FP45s were also wearing American Flag logos, though much smaller. Don't recall reading of any complaints.

Sooner or later UP bean counters may advise management that the flag decals are getting too expensive to maintain or replace.

So before the flags go "Bye-Bye", let's enjoy them while we can.

[Anonymous]

As a Veteran of this country having served in a War as some of those on this site have, I would rather see old glory flown on a locomotive then burned by (in my opinion) some idiot in a protest.

[Adelie]

If the flag is still on those locomotives in 30 years, and they are sitting in a scrap yard somewhere with the flag getting covered with grafitti, then let me know. I have not exactly been thrilled with UPs policies, but I fail to see the problem with this one.

[tsasala]

As a veteran, you fought to give that idiot the right to burn whatever he/she wants. You don't have to agree with it, but you have to support his/her right to do it. That fundamental premise is what this country was built on.

[Mark300]

Advertising......UP's use is more for a display than anything else. You are not being asked to buy anything.

UP's use of the flag is an image or a likeness. It's NOT an actual flag. The statute only covers real honest to goodness flags.

If we can all remember our history, Union Pacific was allowed for decades to use the 'Union Shield' or 'National Shield' complete with stars and veritcal stripes (Kind'a like the US Highway sign shape). It was the US Military's up thru the Civil War. I believe they stopped using it in the military after the Civil War and we came up with other forms of national Identity for the Spanish American and the 2 World Wars.

No one has ever really challenged UP's use of the national shield and it has become part of UP's corporate persona. I guess since they were heavily Land-granted by the US government and steam locomotives were pervasive, no one could ever have imagined corporate logos used as displays....complete with images of eagles, flags or whatever on those 'new' fangled diesels.

I have no problem with UP's display......unless they claim license to OUR flag.....then that is worth fighting for.

My [2c]

Mark

[davekelly]

Looks good to me.

[IRONROOSTER]

I don't see it as advertising, but as a statement that UP is a patriotic American company. They may have many faults, but this isn't one of them.
Enjoy
Paul

[BRAKIE]

How about truck lines that display the American flag? How about other corporations that use a U.S flag logo?
Sorry cspmo,I see this as yet another childish attack on the UP.[V]

[csmith9474]

Oh no, not this again. Just go to the trains forum and bump the thread over there that goes into this. And also, I am in a military family. Both me and my and my wife are Air Force and are commited to serve this Nation and to protect the rights of anyone that wants to display the Flag proudly (or burn it as mentioned above[V][:(!]). I believe the Union Pacific's desire to display the Flag on the side of their locomotives exhibits their faith, confidence, and pride in this great Nation. I see everyday disgusting reminders of people whom truly have no respect for Old Glory, such as the tattered remainders of a Flag clipped to car windows, or flags left out in the darkness without illumination to remind us that even at night She stands vigil over us all.

[Anonymous]

I agree with all that have stood up for the UP's choosing to place the American Flag on their locomotives. The last posting especially put it succinctly; "... yet another childish attack#8230;#8221; While the UP has enacted some controversial attempts to have people pay for the use of the logo #8211; I personally don#8217;t give a darn, because I don#8217;t model it #8211; I don#8217;t feel they have gone beyond the bounds of prevailing corporate greed. They print the flag on tee-shirts, etc.; especially after 9-11-01!!! So please get off your high horse and nitpick about something worth nitpicking about. Gheesh![?]

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: It was the US Military's up thru the Civil War. I believe they stopped using it in the military after the Civil War and we came up with other forms of national Identity for the Spanish American and the 2 World Wars.

Well, it's still on official seals, unit flags, and the cap badges of West Point cadets, so I wouldn't write it off just yet!

[Anonymous]

In my opinion things like freedom and liberty should be sacred, but no inanimate object should ever be held as sacred.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by polizi

... I would rather see old glory flown on a locomotive then burned by (in my opinion) some idiot in a protest.

One of the best comments I've ever seen on this forum!! [tup] Thank you, polizi! [:D]

[easyaces]

Whats the Beef? Looks to me that everywhere you go nowadays, you'll see a flag stuck on everything from locos, trucks ,cars, etc. . I'm a Veteran(21yrs USAF) also, and though I don't like seeing the flag burned by some anti-american nut either(and quite frankly, I'd like to shoot 'em!) It seems old glory has become a re-symbalization of the US and like it or not, we're going to see it used a lot in ways that alot of people may not agree with, less we wind up(god forbid) collapsing like the old Soviet Union.

[UPFEF]

In 1953, about two weeks before the first Chevy Corvettes were to be released to the market, the crossed flag emblem identified with the vette included a United States Flag. Chevy was forced to remove this emblem from there cars.

[Anonymous]

This discussion is silly. The answer is clearly NO.
Move on to important matters?

[MisterBeasley]

Liberty is important. The rights we share and fight for as Americans are important. Even the symbolism is important. A couple of days after September 11th, we should never forget that.

On the other hand, this thread has reached the point where it's not really about trains anymore, hasn't it?

[Tracklayer]

No problem here. I think it looks great on UP engines. As long as the flag is used in a respectful way to show national pride, I'm okay with it.

Tracklayer

[twhite]

I have absolutely no problem with UP displaying the American flag on the sides of its locomotives. I DO have a problem if said locomotive hasn't seen a washing facility in two or three years and the flag is filthy. Just a personal opinion, mind you, but if you're going to display a national emblem, at least try and keep it clean!
Tom

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Shermanhill1

This discussion is silly. The answer is clearly NO.
Move on to important matters?

What's silly about it Shermanhill1?. It's a topic like any other, and has to do with a train issue. Who died and made you judge of what's to be talked about on this forum anyway ?...

Tracklayer

[selector]

What would you think if UP had put a crescent and single star on the side of their locos?

Answer: you'd think it was ***ed unpatriotic of them. So, the crescent is unpatriotic (but still a flag), but the flag on your locos is advertising? Convenient...and biased.

At least that 'advertising' gives you the right to express your bias without fear of reprisal. [;)]

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

QUOTE: It was the US Military's up thru the Civil War. I believe they stopped using it in the military after the Civil War and we came up with other forms of national Identity for the Spanish American and the 2 World Wars.

Well, it's still on official seals, unit flags, and the cap badges of West Point cadets, so I wouldn't write it off just yet!

rriperger......

Thanks, I forgot about West Point!

Mark

[trainboyH16-44]

There are a lot of rules there!
And I quote:" The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat" Does that include decals?

QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

Being a Canadian I see it as the UP being proud to be American. There is nothing cooler looking to me then seeing a UP AC4400CW with the American flag on its side. The Canadian Pacific also has the American Flag on its side together with the Canadian flag. I like that paint scheme also because it shows Canada's support of the US and how both country's work together.

They discontinued that 8 years ago. It was in effect for 5(?) years. Why? Because Americans didn't like seeing only half the flag? Canadians hated to have their symbol seen with an American symbol?
Who knows? All I know is that they have returned to their roots with the beaver.
trainboy

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: What would you think if UP had put a crescent and single star on the side of their locos?

Answer: you'd think it was ***ed unpatriotic of them.

Well, my friend, I can give you one worse than the UP doing it - see below. This is not a fabrication.

http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=21

[davekelly]

Why would the UP put the Turkish flag on their engines?

[selector]

Or any flag, for that matter. However, for the purposes of illustration, I chose one with an overt islamic symbol in order to elicit the response of outrage...if it ever SHOULD elicit a sense of outrage. I suppose I could have asked if a Star of David would have raised the ire of onlookers or railfans, or detractors, of UP.

My point, in case I have failed to make it, is that we look at things through an emotional filter that imparts aspects in our conclusions that are often not based on fact or reality. The American flag on the sides of UP locos is just that...a quintessential American symbol. The same would be true of a Star of David, but that symbol would have seemed odd, out of place, and distinctly incendiary perhaps, more-so if it had been the crescent. One would ask of another, "Why is that UP loco flying the X flag? That's wrong!", and it would NOT have been considered a form of advertising, in the commercial sense. So, back to the original question: why take YOUR flag as a form of advertising?

My two bits.