Train lift between decks - latest update

[robengland]

Hi folks.
I'm building a train lift (elevator) to carry trains from lower deck staging to upper deck railroad in an around-the-walls shelf layout.
I've been wrestling with the track plan to cram staging, mainline, city, port and a steam museum into a little 10'x10' study, and I decided that to have what i want the staging just has to be on a second level with the main deck flat, not
consumed by lots of up and down grades to and from the staging. So then it came down to a few options:
1) helix: just barely possible round the water heater in the laundry next door or even outside in a purpose built enclosure, but both are enormous engineering challenges
2) a switchback up and down the wall: workable but tedious to use manually and a beggar to automate
3) a train elevator, which is where my thinking has ended up. I found this http://www.ospreyweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kmr/projects/trainlift-01.htm
(I loved the "After several minutes of careful planning and design").
They built a lift modelled on car scissor-jacks. I thought: why copy a jack?
Why not just use two matched jacks coupled by a shaft?

A couple of cheapie jacks from Repco (a local tra***ools-barn) should do it. I'm thinking that buying the jacks will be quicker and easier. And given prices these days, cheaper. Building from scratch, making the pivoting axles with a threaded centre for the rod is a bit of work. If I use jacks, I'll just join the two existing threaded rods together. There is a coupling on one end for the jack handle, and hopefully a bit of rod at the other end, so i'm thinking a length of square tube, or round tube squared off, will hopefully be all I need to join them together.

I also like their docking/alignment mechanism top and bottom, simple and effective. And I like the use of a battery powered drill, given they are about $40 at *** Smith (a local trash-electrical-barn) these days. It may be able to be used as a stall motor or it may need to have a contact switch cutoff at the limits of travel.
Or I may have to use a dedicated stall motor instead of a hacked drill.

So I've embarked on a proof-of-concept. If successful it opens up all sorts of possibilties. I wouldn't want the lift in the middle of a journey but with staging on one deck and layout on the other I think it will be excellent.

I fell at the first hurdle though: the cheapie jacks at Repco or Warehouse have 10" travel. I need 12-15" to get a useful clearance between decks.
I could still make it work with an inch or two of ramp each end of the lift, but I wanted bigger jacks. Luckily after hunting I found a 12" travel jack at KMart ( a worldwide trash-everything-barn).

First testing last night. Needed a little modification to get access to the central threaded rod from both sides so I can string them together: hard work for the Proxxon hacking away at a 750kg jack!! (Was too tight to get my angle grinder in there).

Smooth enough driven by a power drill (I think, didn't actually have rolling stock on it yet). One issue is going to be the variation in vertical speed between the bottom and top of the travel. I think it will be OK, just a bit slow at the top end.

Another issue will be the motor. I'd like to use a battery drill - nice high torque for low cost. But I'd also like to use a stall motor, to maintain alignment pressure at each end of travel. Otherwise I'll have to rig cutoff switches (I want to put a train on the lift then go off to do something else and leave it unattended as it raises or lowers). Any ideas on a 30-60 rpm stall motor with a bit of torque?

[ukguy]

Cant help you with the stall motor question sorry but it sounds like you've bitten of a big chunk of something to get yer teeth into, I'm impressed. Some quick thoughts from the top of myhead (and you've probably covered these already)

1) why 2 jacks? why not just 1 in the centre with the edges running up poles with connecting 'sleeves' to keep the whole thing level.
2) why not use the drill(or motor) to power a four point winch system instead of a jack? that jack as you have probably realised is gonna creat alot of resistance on its own for the motor where as a counter balanced winch system would be much easier on the motor and the thought process.
3) if the jacks arent tall enough you could use a pivot system to gain more height although this would complicate matters even further.

Just my thoughts, feel free to ignor as you've obviously given this ALOT of thought already but I would still consider/investigate the winch for :

Simplicity
Maintenance
Controlability
Less stress on motor
Ease of construction

Let us know how it goes whatever you decide, I would sure like to see it when completed.

Have fun
Karl.

PS. this post is in no way a dampener on your ideas/plans just what popped in my head when reading it.

[tommyr]

This is the elvator I made. The tracks are European drawer slides they have no play in them like the cheaper ones. The rod is threaded dowel with a threaded piece of oak for the nut on the bottom. A friend gave me a car power window motor to power it. I have'nt hooked it up yet as I am thinking of going to ahelix.
Tom

[TBat55]

Have you thought about this?

http://ro-ro.net/

[NZRMac]

Rob love the idea!! Being a KIWI too I love the backyard engineering, I think your right on the money!!

If you limited the current to a window winder motor ( or wiper motor ) you could use it as a stall motor: ie big wattage resistor. Mayby auto light bulbs, like Joe Fugate uses for short circuit protection.

Keep us up to date.

Ken.

[Anonymous]

About 1997 someone here in the S Gauge Society made a lift using a wheel... as the wheel rotated a train deck on the face of it rose or fell... can't recall the science or find my pics but it was VERY smooth and only needed a small motor.
Don't know if they have a website or if anyone there would remember it...

[ndbprr]

I would want to be certain that the lift of two jacks was identical for the same number of revolutions before comitting to running both from one source. Sounds feasable but now is the time to be sure.

[Anonymous]

Have you thought about using all-thread, and ganging together the rods using bicycle sprockets and chain? In this way you could install 4 rods on all 4 corners of the lift, and have them all synchronized.

I've seen similar devices in MUCH heavier equipment do a similar job. The all-thread rods come 3 feet long, and various sizes.

Mark in Utah

[robengland]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. From the top:
ukguy: the lift will be 1.8m long. That's pretty short for HO but it is all I can fit in the study. Even at that length, any sort of friction at the guide rails is gonna set that sucker vibrating like a tuning fork. I reckon nothing will be on the rails by the time it comes to the top. Jumping forward to Tom's great looking elevator, I had thought of quality drawer slides and I may well use them yet for th guides, but I still worry that pushing the lift at just one point sets up a pivit point for it to oscillate around. Two points holds a line.
Cable systems allow slack, so any stick will let the lift jerk free. I'd use a four-cable system for a layout-in-the-middle-of-the-garage but not for a 1.8m stick - it just isn't heavy enough to ensure smooth motion on a cable, I think.

Terry, yes I checked out ro-ro. I love it and it was a major inspiration to me. I should have credited them along with the Moldavia website mentioned above :-) They got eliminated on the base cost (I'm paying with "South Pacific Pesos" - it takes me more hours to raise that kind of ca***han it does you guys) plus the enormous cost of shipping out here to NZ. So yep if I was a Yank I'd be giving them a close look [;)]

Ken: Bro'! Yes my mate suggested a wiper motor but we hadn't thought of limiting the cuurrent. Being a bit of an electronics geek I may try doing that with a power transistor and see how long it takes to burn one out [:D]

David: the wooden-wheel lift is here http://aglasshalffull.org/article-logging-train.html at Squirrel Valley. I liked the idea but it once again lifts at just one point and depends on a smooth ride in the guides not to cause any vibration. I'm not that precise in my engineering that I would back myself on this one (in fact I'd define myself as a sloppy hack). Also I'm trying to squeeze the lift in minimum real estate: the jack-lift fits under, this one fits beside.

ndbprr: agreed. I bought two identical jacks. I've been working late all week but this weekend I hope to test coupling the two of them together and checking exactly that. Since they are identical I'm not expecting problems but as you quite rightly point out, gotta check.

mark: I started out with a plan based on two vertical threaded rods (it's only a couple of inches wide so i figure two will do). But the chain linkage etc was more complex than this jack system and it all had to be built from scratch. I went for the easy (I hope) option

Actually it didn't necessarily have to be from scratch. Other ideas we considered:

Printer head drive: the bit that makes the head go from side to side: precision engineered, smooth as a baby's backside. Motor's are too fast, would need some hacking. Still have to get two of them to work in sync

Photocopier scanner bed.

Photocopier paper collater.

Electric car window lift. I had visions of an old car door screwed to the wall...

and others....

But this jack system still looks to be the simplest. The drive shafts for the two are in line with each other - just connect 'em together. No cogs, chains, belts..... The lift is linear. They come with a solid base and a stable head to attach the trackbed to. they are over-engineered for the job. And the Chinese make them cheap. I wouldn't get under a car held on one of these jacks but I'd lift two kilos of wood and track with them.

Now if I can just make the motor and control system as simple.....

[robengland]

Testing of the mechanical portion went well.

Here is the mechanism: two slightly modified scissor jacks coupled together with a bit of old curtain rod


With a train on top, to get the proportions


Fully raised


Fully lowred



410mm of vertical movement, that's sixteen - count them, sixteen! - inches of lift. Tons of space betwen decks. Lookin' good.


Right now it is a hand-crank device.
Still to come are
- motor
- control system
- alignment frame
- track
so a long way still to go. But I'm happy so far

[Anonymous]

Rob, in your quest you've managed to arrive at and overcome all the hurdles that I did while building the train lift. You are right on the button with your thoughts on running guides, pulleys, chains and cogs. The scissor jack is definitely the way to go.

The problem you envisage with the motor stalling at each end of travel is one that I worried about until actually having the thing running.
As the Waldovia Train Lift is 8ft long, and the two sets of scissor arms are not fully at each end of the train lift, there is a certain amount of flexing in the center of the lift platform once it reaches top or bottom. To put it more simply, once the platform reaches the top for instance, and 'docks' , the motor can continue to pu***he platform further up flexing it slightly. It is this flexing that I intend to take advantage of by placing microswitches at that point that will cut out the motor allowing the motor to only operate in the opposite direction.

I realise that your platform wouldn't be so long but even 1 or 2 mm of flexing would permit the use of a microswitch to do the same in your case alolowing an ordinary drill motor with gearbox to be used.

I'm glad you found the Waldovia Train Lift article useful.
The Waldovia web site has now gone 'frames' so a better approach is to go to www.waldovia.co.uk and the Train Lift can be found in the Project section. It is also featured on Page 10 of the 2005 layout.

[GMTRacing]

Rob,
For sure the microswitch for stops at top and bottom. A circuit breaker in case it stalls out (they are chinese jacks after all). A drive cable from a stationary motor could help with the connection to the jacks, or a mount with a flex coupling of some type just in case of slight misalignment over time. And as an aside I would have thought calling Repco a trash parts place is a bit like calling Bruce McLaren just another driver. Weren't they world champion (F-1) engine constructors two years running?

[NZRMac]

Well done Rob, keep us posted!! gosh a reply from the Governor, the inventor of the lift.
Your on the right track then.

Ken.

[railroadyoshi]

Hope things go well.
Would love to see the finished product[^]

[selector]

Rob, it looks like you are well on your way. I like the set-up. My only concern would be that one of the jacks may bind (who knows why) and the other will continue to lift for a short distance until it too binds...maybe. The point is that the train may roll/slide if it develops a strong grade. If you use a single lifting mechanism, centred as suggested above, binding will just mean a halt in the elevation, but no tilting.

Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

If the threaded bar between the two jacks is one piece, both jacks will be synchronised and have no alternative but to operate as one. If one jack locks up for any reason the other will not be able to move.
Which brings me to another thought...
The thread on a car scissor jack is much courser than the threaded bar I used (10mm thread) therefore you will need a motor speed that is quite slow but with a higher torque. Judging by the top picture though, it looks like you've been using a cordless drill for testing already so you should have a good idea of the speed needed.

[robengland]

Hi Adrian
I planned to contact you next re control systems. The comment "intend to take advantage " suggests to me you aren't at that stage yet either? I'm thinking to use microswirtches mounted on the moving section, on an adjustable mount so the switch is right in the "V" of the locating mechanism you used, so that the alignment bolt triggers the switch. This way it's one less dimension to keep adjusted: if you adjust the alignment bolt you don't also need to adjust the microswitch.

BTW, using flex in the wood is exactly where I was at too in terms of elimianting any slack in the system.


Hi Selector,
there is only one drive, on a single shaft thru both jacks. One jack stops, both stop.


I'm away all weekend so I hope to get a motor mounted in about two to three weeks

[icmr]

Cool.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Hi Adrian
I planned to contact you next re control systems. The comment "intend to take advantage " suggests to me you aren't at that stage yet either?

The train lift is in place and working, (trains pass through from one end to the other on the lower level) and the lift goes up and down, but there's no track on the upper level yet so it's not serving any purpose at the moment.
I'm just operating the lift with the trigger and reversing switch salvaged from the cordless drill, although I'm using a power supply rather than the battery originally used with the drill.
This means that attention is needed when working the lift at the moment.

Next stages include:

• The micro switches to cut the motor out at both extremes of travel.


• Micro switches to disconnect the platform track from one level and connect it to the other depending where the platform is (this will also mean the platform track is 'dead' between levels).


• Train detection (simple light beam across the track) at each end of the lift platform so I will have indication at the control panel if a train is fully on the lift and won't be chopped in two when the lift operates.

The lift will be behind smoked perspex so will be invisable until lights are turned on inside the lift.
As usual, a comprehensive project page will available to explain everything after the work is completed [:)]

[Anonymous]

I had one of those jack, and it was threaded(thread wrecked) at one point, so you could jack the car up, but only so far. If you did that,then you wouldn't need a micro switch. ;-DD

[robengland]

Thanks Adrian, we think along similar lines all the way. I had the same control system ideas, less one and plus one. Less: I hadn't thought about needing to connect to different blocks at top and at bottom. I may not need to - I run DCC. certainly killing the lift between levels makes sense. And plus: I plan to have dead zone s at each end of the track on the lift, powered by a sprung switch, so a train can be run into the lift and will automatically stop. Then pushing the button allows you to run it out again. Likewise there needs to be dead zones on the track approaching the lift interlocked to the lift to prevent locos performing a graceful arc.
And I LOVE the smoked perspex idea: gonna steal that one too!! Ooh yeah.
I agree that detection circuits will be essential to make sure nothing gets cut in half too.
Add to that the motor start and cutoff systems, and control becomes by far the most complex bit of the whole gadget.

I used your idea of a drill for the motor. Here's mine as of last night. Tonight I'll connect it up on the lift. The pistol-grip will be cut off. I'm leaving it there for now until I know exactly how I'm going to attach it to the jack to stop rotation


..and I just realised I never posted the diagram. Sorry folks this might have cleared up some confusion earlier [;)]

[pcarrell]

I am reading through this with interest and a thought occurs to me.

If the drill was an electric (plug in) one you could simply put a timer on it to cut off power. Works up or down that way with one swith.

Just figure out how much time is needed to travel the distance and set the timer to that.

This may not work as well with a cordless as the battery will drain and the lift will go slower and throw the timing off.

Just a thought......

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Thanks Adrian, we think along similar lines all the way.

I'm enjoying the deja vu [:D]

QUOTE: I plan to have dead zone s at each end of the track on the lift, powered by a sprung switch, so a train can be run into the lift and will automatically stop. Then pushing the button allows you to run it out again.

I will use sensors (see further down) to tell me where the train is and stop/start it manually. Being a non-DCC layout I prefer to do most of the controlling myself.

QUOTE: Likewise there needs to be dead zones on the track approaching the lift interlocked to the lift to prevent locos performing a graceful arc.

I tried a sort of mechanical cat flap that closed the gap once the lift platform had moved. It wasn't too succesful though, I think dead sections of a suitable length are definitely the answer here.

QUOTE: And I LOVE the smoked perspex idea: gonna steal that one too!! Ooh yeah.

I haven't priced an 8ft x 2ft piece of perspex yet, it may be prohibitive.

QUOTE: I agree that detection circuits will be essential to make sure nothing gets cut in half too.

For this I plan light beam detection at either end that shows a light on the control panel. This way I can see one light come on as the train enters the lift blocking the beam, the light then goes out once the train passes it. As long as the light for the beam at the other end doesn't light, I know the train will be between the two sensors.

QUOTE: Add to that the motor start and cutoff systems, and control becomes by far the most complex bit of the whole gadget.

I'm thinking of just having the pistol grip of the drill on a long curly cord (as well as the variable trigger switch and reverse control, it contains the heatsink for the rheostat/resistor).

QUOTE: The pistol-grip will be cut off. I'm leaving it there for now until I know exactly how I'm going to attach it to the jack to stop rotation

There is a picture on our project page showing the drill we modified.
A couple of aluminium strips with large cable ties clamping the drill in between. The drill casing is full of motor and gearbox with nowhere to make mounting holes so clamping it from the outside was the only method open to me.
The chuck of the drill is simply tightened onto the end of the threaded bar. Presumably you will have to cut off the ring where the jack handle is attached.
One thing that I wished I'd found a source for, is the flat roller bearing cage. Like a thick washer with needle rollers in a star pattern. The scissor jack I looked at has one at the handle end of the jack.

Please keep us posted on the progress.

[robengland]

Perspex (or other plastic) cost: less than US$100 here

Motor mount: there's room in the body of my drill so I can screw to it

The bearing cage: the hardest part of this job has been demolishing them on my jacks [:D] I needed to remove them so that I could get some extra play in the threaded rod. This extra play has allowed me to screw the rod through so that at minimum height there is still a bit of rod sticking out the end of the jack to connnect to. The drill connects to one (using the chuck) and the old curtain rod connects to the other (via a cotter pin). All that remains of the bearing cage is a washer. The bearings are essential when there is a 1000kg of car on the jack. The washer alone is plenty of bearing surface for this job.

I have retained the rings for the jack handle. The curtain rod connects to one ring via a slot in the end of the rod and a bolt through it. The other ring will be handy for when my control system fails and I have to hand-crank the dang thing [:D]


P Carrell: the idea of a timer bears thinking about. I don't play with 220V mains, but even with a battery drill it works. We don't plan to use the battery long term, there will be a proper power supply. The drill has a built in slipping ratchet to control the screwdriver force, so a timer could work and remove the need for cut-off switches. Hmmm.......

[Anonymous]

What about a photo-electric eye like on garage doors, though the tolerance may be on the low side, or some type of micro switch to control it? Maybe some logic circuit that will know to skip level 2 and raise to level 3.

Neat idea. That lift would solve my staging problem.

[robengland]

Yes buried in all the waffle here is discussion of microswitches and I may have to go to that. But I dislike switches or photocells as alignment devices for something as critical as track - it is too easy for them to get out of alignment. Can't beat a big hunk of metal slamming into another big hunk of immovable metal and being held there by a constant force :-)

That's also why i'm sticking to just two levels: top and bottom. One moving metal frame, two solid metal stops.

I haven't had time to do my new track plan now I have got all the staging and ramps to staging off of the top deck. I can't wait - it will free up so much real estate.


Adrian,
one comment I forgot to make was that I am definitely going to have an automated lift not a manual one. I plan to have a busy little layout. I want to send a train towards the lift then forget it. When i come back to it the train will be in the lift waiting so i can press the lift button then again forget it. Next time I come back the lift has moved to the other position, so i can hold down the train power button and drive off the lift.

[underworld]

A contact switch cut off would probably be your best, and safest bet.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Adrian,
one comment I forgot to make was that I am definitely going to have an automated lift not a manual one. I plan to have a busy little layout. I want to send a train towards the lift then forget it. When i come back to it the train will be in the lift waiting so i can press the lift button then again forget it. Next time I come back the lift has moved to the other position, so i can hold down the train power button and drive off the lift.

I think I'll go the easy route and promote my son to lift operator "OK Karl, take this one to the top floor " [:D]

So, with four possible entry/exits, which will you be using?

[robengland]

I'm planning to have one end of the lift a dead end. Bottom and top will align at only one end. Simpler that way and the geometry of the room dictates it anyway.

Nobody has spotted the error in my plan that I found last night. Duh! The obvious things I miss when i go at it too fast. theer are two ends to the threaded rod thru these jacks. One end has a loop for the jack handle. One has a bare end. I modified the bearing so the bare end sticks out further to attach things to it. Like the motor. One end of the rod stays put as the jack raises, one protrudes further and furtehr from the frame. Which one? the Bare end. If I attach the motor there I have nothing to anchor the motor to as the frame moves away.

SO I have two options:

1) attach the motor at the loop end instead, and lose my option to hand crank the lift when it breaks down. Not such a big deal as it can be cranked by turning the rod by hand directly - slower but it works
2) continue to attach the motor at the bare end and stop it turning by having some sliding arrangement from the frame or some flexible anchor down to baseboard. fear this will introduce too much play into the motor mounting which will allow some slop when it gets to the end of its travels, dropping the track out of alignment. Some experimentation required here.

Other challenges I've come up against:
- the threaded rod is bigger than a standard drill chuck so it needs to be ground down or a smaller shaft attached. Either way it's hard to get a nice centered aligned shaft so the motor doesn't wobble around.
- Those drill motors are noisy.

[Anonymous]

Go for mounting the motor at the business end. Less things to go wrong.
You could drill the center of the threaded rod and tap it 8mm or even 6mm. Tighten a bolt in there and chop the head off so it fits in the drill chuck.
In fact if you'd done that first it would probably have given you the extra length you needed.