Amtrak arrests Sunset Limited passenger for trespassing-I am outraged!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by icmr

I'm VERY MAD about all of this.

Here's an idea. Someone starts a national Railfan club and if you are a member you get a card that says you can legally be around the tracks, take pictures, and viedo tape the trains. That way you can be there and no problems.

Would that it was that simple!

When a train sounds audible warning at you do you know the correct response?

I'm not knocking Railfans...

I've just known way too many bodies picked out from under...

You want to be the police officer (one of those BIG BAD Police officers) who goes round to tell your wife and kids that your parts are down the morgue? Oh Yeah... and the Coyotes will be snacking on the bits they didn't find... after the fire crew finished hosing your blood,guts and brains off the neighbourhood.
Got the idea...?

I was taking a train up to London with a girlfriend. As we walked across an invisible line at the station entrance she laughed. (By the way, that's the same line where the commuters turn their brains off automatically and expect to be ejected gently at the other end on time to the nanosecond)...
So,anyway... I asked her what was funny. Her chuckle was because she'd noticed other rail workers come out of an office/mess room as her train pulled in the day before. She said that she saw a magic transformation as they crossed some other invisible line. Both they and I apparently changed "mode".

her observation was correct... we do... I don't know how... it gets in the blood...

Rail workers still get killed and maimed...

When I have new staff I give them this example...
Do you play football/American football/cricket/baseball/basketball/... ?

Okay... so, when you are playing you need to have a strong awareness of where your team members are around you, where the opposition are, what's happening, what APPEARS to be developing and several more likely alternates that could happen.

Okay... so you play on Sundays and when you can fit it in... You need to have the PROFESSIONAL SKILLS that would get you into Manchester United , the Red Sox or whoever... This isn't a hobby ... it's a job.

That's Exactly the sort of awareness you need to develop when "on or about the track"... which means from about ten foot before you cross the boundary.

You need to have that "radar" scanning every second you are there.

I've come so close to being spread thin by a Class 47 doing 70 that my colleague watching past out. (Which put him at risk of injury).

I've known a Station Master who was a good guy and red hot on safety get spread the length of West Croydon Station.

What chance do you expect someone wandering about with :-
no proper training,
no mentoring,
no proper experience,
probably little or no proper equipment...
to have?

Do you know how far back you should stand from a train doing 70?

Do you understand "turbulance"?

We had a very nice young lad, a vicar's son, no vandal or trouble maker, wanted to get some really good pictures... so he climbed onto a car... got away with it until he tried to climb over the catenary...

They wouldn't let his parents see what was left.

They'd had to chip molten flesh off the car roof.

You could (in this country) do a "Track Environment" course... £1,100... after you've paid for your "Personal track Safety" course.... and, as someone that started 25 + years ago I don't reckon either is worth zip....

The way I was trained... I went out with a steam man who'd worked on the track during WWII. He told me what NOT to do, then what to do.

If I started to move the wrong way I got a smack in the ear on that side... barbaric?... a train ... doing 1 mph... doesn't know anything about culture... doesn't care... it's pieces of metal... moving.

I got the message... and the above time is still not the only time I've had to stand back fast and take a shuddering breath.

I WANT RAILFANS TO ENJOY RAILROADS.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO END UP IN BODY BAGS.

There is one thing that I tell all new staff is THE MOST DANGEROUS THING ON THE TRACK...

IT'S YOU.
YOU ARE WHAT WILL PUT YOU IN DANGER...
NOT THE RAILROAD
NOT THE MANAGEMENT
NOT A FRIEND
NOT YOUR WIFE
NOT YOUR HUSBAND
NOT YOUR KIDS

YOU

Which do you reckon is the more likely to get you into danger? ...

Drugs in your blood?
Alcohol?
Fatigue?
The row you had with your parther?
The letter from the IRS?
Concentrating on what you are doing?

HEY! (As they used to say on Hill Street Blues) "Let's be careful out there".

ENJOY YOUR RAILROADING

[John Busby]

Hi guys
The railway reserve is not puplic land regardless of public or private ownership.
The public has the right to acsess public areas however they do not have the right to leave designated public areas without the express written permision of the railway.
Quite frankly as a railway employee .
I applude Amtrack for doing it. I wi***he railway I work for had the guts to do it
then I would not be out fixing damadge done by the so called public all the ***ed time, when I have my own railway to build and play with.
I am also sick of the crazy railway enthusiasts who have this death wi***rying to get that perfect picture[V].
Wake up fellows your train room is the playground my work place the railway reserve is not a play ground.
You should not be there without a guide the propper dress required and express written permission form the railway company.
if you are its your fine, jail time or worse funeral.
I have been to a site where the emergency services picked up the pieces fortunatly gone just before my arrival I dont want to have to do that again.
[soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox]
regards John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo

I back the police. You can't be too careful. I heard on the news the other night that Osama may have as many as 20 suitcase nukes that were perfected in the old Soviet Union and are now unaccounted for.
They are not done with us yet. We can't get lax

Actually add the fact that this happened in New Orleans, of course before the huricane, but if the looting/shooting and from what I heard on the radio today, rapes and murders, maybe the police and RR police are just a little more on guard down there with what looks like a under the surface and waiting to boil population. I know I would be. Though this guy wasn't looting, shooting, carrying any nukes and such. Just wondering...

[okiechoochoo]

I back the police. You can't be too careful. I heard on the news the other night that Osama may have as many as 20 suitcase nukes that were perfected in the old Soviet Union and are now unaccounted for.
They are not done with us yet. We can't get lax

[Train 284]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train 284

Well I find that to be the biggest load of bull [censored] I have ever heard!!! Arrested for tresspassing? What? He went off to get a couple photos and he was put in jail! What is the world coming to? Trespassing on public land, wow that makes perfect sense.....NOT! Oh boy! [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V][banghead][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][sigh][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn]

[:0] I take it your upset by all this.

Maybe just a bit.......[:I]

[dinwitty]

I think for now this country is going to be rather nitzy for terrorist things, that suxors for the railfan enjoyment. If he was on his train, tho he should have stayed on it, and not jump off.

I rode to LA on Amtrak and in Albuquerque, NM, you are allowed to deboard and take in the vendors at the station.
But if you deboard your train otherwise you risk the train leaving before you can get back on.
Your better if you let the conductor know your interested in taking a photo of your train. That way the crews wont be antzy about crazy things railfans do.
or be suspicious.

otherwise get pics at othertimes at decent photo spots not trying to ride the train.
Really, its common curteousy to let the crew know your interests in the hobby.

[waltersrails]

i agree ICMR.
i think the guy should sue Amtrack and shut them down for good.
They are nothing but problems.[:(!]

[icmr]

I'm VERY MAD about all of this.

Here's an idea. Someone starts a national Railfan club and if you are a member you get a card that says you can legally be around the tracks, take pictures, and viedo tape the trains. That way you can be there and no problems.

[Tracklayer]

Like others have said, I wasn't there, so I really can't judge. But I have to say that a lot of railroads are paranoid now a days of not only possible terrorist, but law suits as well.

An example of this paranoia is when a friend and I went train photographing last spring, and got pulled over and questioned by the police in Somerville Texas. After the officer realized we weren't up to anything, he reminded us to stay off railroad property and told us not to have too much fun...

Tracklayer

[howmus]

Since I was not there and therefore do NOT know the whole story, I cannot be too sure of why this guy was arrested. I'm glad so many others seem to know so much more than I do....... (Sarcasm!!!!) I have a feeling someone will soon post a different (and more complete) story of what really happened. Remember the e-bay thread a month or so ago. Lets calm down until some FACTS appear. I don't think there is a need for the lynch mob just yet. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Amtrak is government. Government is big. Big is inherently dumb. The bigger gov't gets, the more 'zero tolerance' policies make no sense. Besides, if he was on a passenger platform, how on earth could that be trespassing? I guess every passenger that walked along that platform should be arrested, right? Morons.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train 284

Well I find that to be the biggest load of bull [censored] I have ever heard!!! Arrested for tresspassing? What? He went off to get a couple photos and he was put in jail! What is the world coming to? Trespassing on public land, wow that makes perfect sense.....NOT! Oh boy! [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V][banghead][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][sigh][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn]

[:0] I take it your upset by all this.

[Train 284]

Well I find that to be the biggest load of bull [censored] I have ever heard!!! Arrested for tresspassing? What? He went off to get a couple photos and he was put in jail! What is the world coming to? Trespassing on public land, wow that makes perfect sense.....NOT! Oh boy! [:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][V][V][banghead][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][sigh][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn][tdn]

[ereimer]

he was a passenger and he was on the platform . i'm not sure how that's trespassing . i'm also not sure why the officer was so concerned about someone who was standing talking to 2 other amtrak emplotees .

however , you do have to use a somewhat twisted sense of discretion when talking to law enforcement officers , they're rarely interested in your opinion of their interpretation of the law .
so when an officer tells you something is the law , or against the rules , if you verbally disagree with him that's being beligerant , just like if after being told you are under arrest if you don't immediatly hold out your hands for the cuffs you are resisting arrest

now i don't agree with this , and i have met many police officers who don't immediatly react like this , but it's probably better to say "sorry , sir , i didn't realize this area was off limits " and go on your way than to spend a night in jail

note: having been a harley rider in the 80's , before half the lawyers , bankers and stockbrokers in the world found out it was cool to ride a bike , i have learned these lessons the hard way .

[Anonymous]

God bless America [xx(]

[Virginian]

I was not there so I do not know what happened. I could speculate ad infinitum, but I won't. I will say that I agree with the above statement "something seems to be missing here".

[Anonymous]

Maybe they were scared of a terrorist attack, because its n.o., especally since they are at a low point to say the least. When I went on Amtrak last month with my mother, I ran up to the front of the train and took pictures, but no one said anything. There is probably more to the story, imo.
Andrew

[Anonymous]

We had years of IRA bombs before 9/11 etc. I've evacuated and searched stations and trains (I even contributed to a Motorway being shut in the Rush-Hour). One thing I would reckon... you don't see someone leaving a supicious package standing around with a camera chatting. You also usually get a bad felling about people that are trouble... though you may only realise that it was a bad feeling after the trouble went down.

Then again... railways may be publicly owned/owned by the Governement (I don't know your law) but that doesn't mean a right of access. Would you expect to walk on an artillery range? Even more simple... if you were walking on a freeway would you argue with an officer telling you to get off? (Here walking on Motorways is illegal).

Trains DON'T go round you.

Photography is innocent, harmless etc etc. Yup... until you're not paying attention ...except to the loco on the far track ...and the train moving back on the near track takes you out.

Officially you have to get a permit to take any pictures on British railways/ Network Rail property... I've never known where you would get one. If you are outside the fence you are outside the fence... unless it's signed MoD land (Same as DoD).
People DO get absorbed in taking pictures... and fall off platforms... you've probably seen those "hilarious" videos of people filming the kids and falling in the pond on TV. do that with a train and...

Why should the Engineer have cardiac arrest?

I notice that in the account someone said "wait until we get someone to escort you... " this is exactly my point... and probably why he got arrested... it sounds like he didn't wait for someone going out of their way to provide help for him to be safe. how long would he have had to wait for an escort. The escort is there to save him from getting killed. What's a photo worth? Had he thought about the risk to himself? to others? Does he realise the complications of extracting a body from under a train?

Okay the cop may have been heavy handed... a train wouldn't be.

A win for the terrorists? only if you let it be. Think... we have to watch EVERYONE who wanders where they can do themselves or others harm... the more people there are just wandering around the easier it is for a maniac to go un-noticed. Also, if I don't stop you... on what ground do I stop anyone else? This is simply another reason for being sensible and policing ourselves. You don't leave your baggage standing around at an airport ... I HOPE!... same applies around trains.

Another line on the same thing... when mobile phones first went "hands free" we kept seeing people wandering around platform ends apparently talking to themselves... "Look-out! A jumper"! Then we got used to them... so a jumper walking around talking to him/herself became just someone talking on the phone...

If you don't want "Big Brother" laws don't give the law makers an excuse to bring them in...

[skiloff]

There obviously isn't enough information there to form a final opinion, but I have three comments, as others have mentioned:

1) Don't smart mouth anyone in authority, regardless of whether you think its funny or not. They are doing their job, whether you like it or not, and don't deserve to be disrespected (even when they are disrespectful).

2) 9/11 changed everything for everyone - don't expect that just because you are shooting a few pictures that everyone should believe you aren't up to something else. Knowing about the Madrid and London bombings probably has Amtrak on high alert, so don't screw around.

3) Throwing a mouthy sixty year old man in jail when alternatives could have been explored is a little over the line - depending on the circumstances. Nobody wins in these situations, but some common sense is in order.

[areibel]

I think another problem is the type of people that wind up as "Security" officers, I think they've watched Judge Dread too many times. They won't or can't make it as a police officer, but they can have the next best thing, a badge, gun and lots of self imagined power. I've seen it in individuals from game wardens to the rent -a- cop security
at everything from county fairs to high school football games. The attitude, demeanor and even the swagger is all the same. They are THE LAW!
I can see this happening if the passenger even tried to joke about it- a just cause for over reaction in the "Officer"'s eyes. I'm not a big ACLU supporter but if this is true, I'd have called them a loooong time ago!
And I am not cop bashing! My brother is a agent in the Virginia State Police, working with their anti-terrorisdm unit. He fights real terrorists, not 60 year old guys with cameras!

[AntonioFP45]

Not justifying the actions of the police if they over-reacted.......but it's likely possible that the 4/11 train bombings in Spain are still fresh in the mind of many Amtrak employees. The attitude of "It can't happen here" is long gone.

[tatans]

Are you sure you weren't in East Berlin and this happened in 1960? were the Polezie speaking Russian.? Remember, this is how this stuff starts.

[Javern]

He was warned by Amtrak employees so be it ina subtle way, I think he should have known better and left, these are different times than they were before 9/11. We all have to know that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

What would happen if I were to somehow find myself inside the vaults at Fort Knox? I'm thinking that's public property also. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Private Public Property? Also if you wound up inside Fort Knox, on your way out, could you grab me a couple bars, before you are humming a few bars, behind bars [:D]

[Darth Santa Fe]

And the morral of this story is...always do what the police tell you to, or you'll get arrested.

[davekelly]

What would happen if I were to somehow find myself inside the vaults at Fort Knox? I'm thinking that's public property also. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[selector]

People gladly believe what they wi***o. Julius Ceasar said that 2000 years ago.

If you are a rail fan, and find that rail police often get in your face, then it isn't you...oh, no. Much more convenient to think it's those nasty police, and anybody who supports them, that's all ****ed up.

Note to self: When asked by any police offer (the first tip) to leave an area because he/she says I am trespassing, don't retort that it is public property. Ranks way up there on the list of dumb things to say to a peace officer.

[davekelly]

I have a strange feeling that there is something missing in the story. It would be interesting to do some digging and discover more information before jumping to conclusions.

I've often enjoyed listening to someone describe his or her actions which led to an arrest and then watch the video tape of the arrest. Often times very very very different.

[Anonymous]

I think if it was just taking pictures the AMTRAK police or whomever went a little too far, even if it was tresspassing, still a little extreme, if they didn't find any explosives or other contraband, then they should have slapped his wrist and be done with it. Heck they treat drunk drivers and the gangbangers with more respect, sad state of affairs to be sure. He did have a good point about AMTRAK being public property, though the way he said it was a little smart acting. Not sure I would spout off to hard with law enforcement. Take that back I WOULDN'T!

[Anonymous]

Rules like that are not going to stop any sort of terrorism, they are only going to take all the fun out of failfanning, and thus the terrorists win.