Major Announcement Coming From MTH at NMRA Show in Cincinnati

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by redneckgoober

Hey, why can't Mike get into HO? The more the better. You boys don't know about the good stuff he put out in O gauge. Take a look and you will change your minds.

Red

I for one am very familiar with MTH's O scale offerings, and own about 40 pieces. I am very happy with all of the rolling stock, but I will not buy any of the engines that have DCS. DCS does not impress me, and it is incapable of operating my layout the way I want to do it. Personally I have always felt that it was developed solely out of spite for Lionel and their TMCC system.

That combined with Mike's "bull in a china shop" business style has me siding with the HO guys. I think that it is quite clear that Mike has stepped on a lot of toes long before there was any announcement of an attempt to enter the HO market. In all honesty, I don't believe Mike ever wanted to get into HO, but rather was sucked in, in order to try to defend and justify his DCS patent.

For as smart a businessman as Mike is, I just don't see how he expects to sell unit one to a market that resents his very existance.

Bottom line, I don't even do HO, but I believe in the fellowship of all in the hobby. This whole MTH HO debacle is very upsetting to a lot of people, and in my opinion counterproductive.

[Anonymous]

MTH? Who cares, I won't buy a *** thing from that guy. Ever.

So he can feel free to join the HO market, but then when he loses his a** he will look around for someone else to sue so he can stay in business.

Paul

[railroadyoshi]

If a company has bad management, and doesnt look towards the greater good of the hobby, then i dont care how wonderful the product is

[Anonymous]

They never learn, never. They drop these hints, thinking it will make a big splash. ALl they get is egg on their face and well over two pages of hate for their efforts. ANd all those people will talk to people and convert them to the anti MTH group. If MTH was smart, they would drop all lawsuits in the DCC comunity,and lay low for about two or three years. Bring out good to great product and hope people forgive them.
They should let this post stay up here as a object lession to manafactures that they shouldn't post here to try and advertise their products.
Bill

[Frank53]

I heard from a reliable source that the reliable source will unreliably revolutionaize the reliable source industry.

[Anonymous]

Just a question, didn't you HO old timers get your start in O gauge? Where are your roots?

Bigboy you make sense but I don't see what the big deal is. I thought you were a TCA guy. DCS or TMCC the more choices the better. Why let Horizon or Atlas call the shots? Competition is good ain't it?

Red

[AntonioFP45]

RedneckGoober,

Bottom line is that MTH messed up royally. His business tactics come off very strongly as arrogant. Mike was accustomed to the battles with the other O scale companies, but he had ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about the consequences of threatening the HO (and N) markets with regards to DCC!

I have seen some of the O Scale models and to me they looked good. However, I have absolutely no intention of purchasing ANY MTH products, new or used.

Mike may get a foothold in HO or he might not. With the variety of quality HO models already available from Atlas, Kato, Athearn Genesis and RTR, Proto 2000 and 1000, Walthers and now Overland????

Guys, MTH HO, in my humble opinion, is going to be a like a little row boat in a stormy sea......... surrounded by these huge, strong ships. Based on the input that I've heard about the inferior detailing on the new MTH HO K4, it looks like the rowboat is already taking on water.

HO modelers can bicker back and forth about Athearn, Kato, etc., BUT let someone come in and THREATEN the hobby...........you end up with unity on a national if not global scale.

[Anonymous]

New guys,

Read this thread if you are in the dark:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21838

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by redneckgoober

Just a question, didn't you HO old timers get your start in O gauge? Where are your roots?

Bigboy you make sense but I don't see what the big deal is. I thought you were a TCA guy. DCS or TMCC the more choices the better. Why let Horizon or Atlas call the shots? Competition is good ain't it?

Red

Well Red, I used to be a TCA guy, but after 22 years, I didn't renew last January. Philosophically I find myself more in tune with the NMRA. The TCA spends all of it's time and effort worrying about how trains look, and does nothing about dealing with how trains work. TCA standards are meaningless to me. I'm not in it for the money.

The NMRA is the organization that establishes mechanical standards for all scales, including 3 rail O. In all other scales the manufacturers work hard to comply so that peices made by different companies work well together. The 3 rail market is plagued with patents, making things like couplers, wheels and switches all nonstandard.

One of the most important aspects of DCC is that it is a set of standards that no manufacturer owns. This allows anyone to come along and make products that fit those standards, and many have.

Along comes Mike, and in the old 3 rail tradition, patents DCS. Of course, he doesn't want Lionel to get his "better mouse trap", especially since he invested (wasted) 4 million dollars on it. In the process, he impedes development of products being designed for use with DCC. At this point MTH has not announced any intention of entering the HO market, and has already angered a lot of people. These people don't know MTH, they don't care. What they see is a big bully holding their enjoyment of the hobby hostage.

The offering of DCS to the HO market is not competition, it's just an opportunity for Mike to try to sell more units of DCS. The market has all of the competition it needs within the DCC standard. It does not need or want a proprietary system, like DCS, regardless of the features offered.

This is just another rehash of the old IBM vs Apple or VHS vs Beta scenario. Market share is already established with DCC.

Given his marketing network, and choice of producing a Pennsy K-4, not to mention all of the ill will created, I expect no future releases (if this one makes it at all).

Bottom line, the guys around here aren't buyin' it, and they only represent the tip of the iceberg.

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Just a question, didn't you HO old timers get your start in O gauge? Where are your roots?

Red;

My roots lie with several AF sets as a child. My absolute first set was a Marx windup, but even it had only two rails. Never did like the three rail trains as it didn't look as real as the trains that ran about a block from the house I grew up in. The American Flyer did, but even by the time I was eight, it didn't look real enough. Been in HO ever since.

[Anonymous]

Wow! Look at all the whiners! And all of them whining about something. . . whatever it is. . .that they don't even know anything about!

It's kind of nice that MR allows such baseless rants to continue here, though, because it reveals a whole lot--not about MTH, since many of the posts are full of lies, distortions, half-truths, and innuendo based solely on emotion and not on fact--but about some of the folks (fortunately not many) who populate the hobby these days. Small wonder the hobby doesn't grow as rapidly as its potential should allow.

Thanks, though, for providing some downright humorous reading! Gives new meaning to the term "brand bashing," which is normally associated with the O gauge toy train crowd. I guess immaturity is not scale specific.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

Wow! Look at all the whiners! And all of them whining about something. . . whatever it is. . .that they don't even know anything about!

It's kind of nice that MR allows such baseless rants to continue here, though, because it reveals a whole lot--not about MTH, since many of the posts are full of lies, distortions, half-truths, and innuendo based solely on emotion and not on fact--but about some of the folks (fortunately not many) who populate the hobby these days. Small wonder the hobby doesn't grow as rapidly as its potential should allow.

Thanks, though, for providing some downright humorous reading! Gives new meaning to the term "brand bashing," which is normally associated with the O gauge toy train crowd. I guess immaturity is not scale specific.

Please enlighten everyone. What is the truth?


Here is the truth that I see everytime I look at a QSI sound equipped locomotive.
The following is quoted directly from the opoerating manual of my recently purchased DCC equipped Broadway Limited E unit.

"NOTICE TO DCC USERS

The regulated throttle control (RTC) and speed control features that may be described in your opperator's manual are not available on this unit at this time in DCC mode........These functions have been eliminated because of threats of litigation by Mike's Train House (MTH). QSI believes the claim by Mike's Train House is unfounded because these control features were developed by QSI and others and were in use long before Mike's Train House claims to have "invented" them. Broadway Limited Imports, LLC and QSI do not believe that the Quantum Sound™ system infringes any MTH patent."

The QSI DCC sound has been very popular, and so a very high percentage of HO and N scale modellers have been introduced to MTH thru this notice. All we know is that DCC, developed as an open standard, adopted by many manufacturers is being restrained by pending or threatened litigation by MTH. MTH is now regarded as a threat by folks on this list. Which leads to the other undeniable fact that MTH has a serious image problem in the HO and N scale world.

[Anonymous]

The announcement is going to be that Mike Wolf is retiring and that he has sold the company to Lionel at a low price to compenstate them for stealing their designs and stealing their money in a lawsuit where he claimed to have had the designs first.

Mike will be known forever as the man that took the fun out of model railroading, hopefully he will leave the hobby soon, so that his Tyranical rein will be over and the freeloving atmosphere will return. O-scale is in shambles, sales are low due to his actions, so he's trying to bully himself into the HO-scale market because he has a need to fund his army of lawyers.

[oleirish]

On top of that What is MTH or what do's MTH mean?The name please?
JIM

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Alan,

Interesting post. Actually your post is quite humorous as it is obvious that you put very little constructive thought into it.

Will you please ATTEMPT to think for just one minute:

(1) Mike Wolf and his lawyers have THREATENED THE ADVANCEMENT OF DCC with baseless litigation. This would DIRECTLY THREATEN the manufacturers that produce DCC and DCC Sound products for model railroaders.

Can you understand that so far??????

(2) Question: Now, which markets would be most negatively affected, economically?

HO and N scale.!!!!

We do have freedom on this forum to express our thoughts. What you've been reading is the reaction from modelers whose hobby is threatened. Please, by all means, point out the lies and half truths! Enlighten us!

With all due respect to you Alan Miller, think carefully before spewing garbage over your fellow hobbyists---regardless of preferred scale. [V][tdn]

As mentioned, this thread and forum are just the tip of the iceberg.....the iceberg that MTH unexpectedly slammed into!

[Anonymous]

WOOOOOT![:D] Right on Antonio! MTH thinks they can just come in here and mess up HO and N, why I oughtta..................

[Anonymous]

Perhaps we'll see a lot of people wearing "Boycott MTH" tee-shirts at the show in Cincinatti?[}:)]

[3railguy]

QUOTE: It's kind of nice that MR allows such baseless rants to continue here, though, because it reveals a whole lot--not about MTH, since many of the posts are full of lies, distortions, half-truths, and innuendo based solely on emotion and not on fact

Well, Allan, you could very well be right but these half truths are really no different from the half truths MTH and their endorsers use in their competition bashing campaigns.

We make look dumb but we are smarter than you think and what comes around, goes around. MTH is all take and no give when it comes to ideas and technology. That plain ticks people off. Legal or not legal. It makes no difference in the hearts of consumers. MTH brought this bashing upon themselves and there is no law protecting them from the biased discrimination amongst the buying community.

Kalmbach may have some cleaning up to do come monday AM but it was fun while it lasted letting our true feelings out.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

Wow! Look at all the whiners! And all of them whining about something. . . whatever it is. . .that they don't even know anything about!

It's kind of nice that MR allows such baseless rants to continue here, though, because it reveals a whole lot--not about MTH, since many of the posts are full of lies, distortions, half-truths, and innuendo based solely on emotion and not on fact--but about some of the folks (fortunately not many) who populate the hobby these days. Small wonder the hobby doesn't grow as rapidly as its potential should allow.

Thanks, though, for providing some downright humorous reading! Gives new meaning to the term "brand bashing," which is normally associated with the O gauge toy train crowd. I guess immaturity is not scale specific.

Allan, just because Rich Melvin doesn't allow discussion like this on his forum doesn't mean that this is an inappropriate subject. The OGR forum doesn't deal with HO trains, and in my opinion, neither should MTH.

These guys didn't start this topic, I suspect Tony did. If it wasn't Tony, then it was someone who sounds a lot like him. Who it was doesn't matter anyway. Everyone here recognizes spin doctoring when they see it, whether it comes from you, Tony, Andy, or any of Mike's pals.

While it may be true that many of the people here don't understand all of the details of what is going on, they know enough to figure out that they don't like what what they see from MTH, and resent having it being forced upon them.

These guys are innocent victims of Mike's ego, and his vendetta against Lionel. This isn't mindless and baseless bashing, they have a legitimate gripe, even if MTH doesn't think so. MTH doesn't have to like what is being said, and they don't have to listen, but these are the judges of MTH's fate in the HO market. They aren't bound by courtroom rules which MTH is so accustomed.

I support the work of the NMRA and the DCC standards. I applaud Kalmbach for having the guts to let this be heard. While I'm willing to admit that Mike Wolf has done a lot of good for the O gauge market, I feel that the collateral damage of the DCS patent pretty much negates that good.

[paulsafety]

Ho & N manufacturers simply need to apply for a license to produce any patented technologies. It will cost more for them than MTH if both produced similar models - a business practice/model that has been around for a long time in most industries (think IBM PC clones v. Apple, VHS v. BetaMax, etc.)

Only in some circumstances can patents be overcome after a period of time - life saving drugs, seatbelts, airbags, antilock braking systems were designed by specific manufacturers to improve life quality, but also to provide profit to cover costs of design and to pay dividends to shareholders. However, after a period of time the patent holders must release licensing to allow others to provide these "enhancements" within their own product offerings (generic drugs, safety appliances in other brands of autos, etc.)

Whether MTH should have filed suit against Lionel or not, the verdict says Lionel did what they were accused of - if they were innocent, there'd be no 40Mil judgement to force the protection bankruptcy. MTH did a lot to wake up the tinplate and hi-rail markets in the 1980's (how we forget the past so easily)

[paulsafety]

Just wanted to add one more thought - when patent holders make licenses easy to get at a very attractive rate, everyone can benefit. The patent holder gets a small, but reasonable percentage on the use of their concept, the marketplace gets better products with more options at a reasonable price, consumers have more choice among competitively priced, feature loaded products.

When the patent holder refuses to cooperate, everyone stands to lose. The patent holder thinks (perhaps) that they can uniquely corner and capture the entire market. (Some may argue that Beta was better technology and quality, but VHS won out...similar arguments might be offered on 'Aple' v. 'Windo/PC')

The ball is in MTH's court (pardon the pun), and they can encourage the widespread adoption of their patents, or stifle the market. They could do better if they encourage inexpensive licenses, and perhaps they will lose out if they do not collaborate with their competitors in fair market trade.

Lawsuits should be the absolute last course of action when no other means will address a dispute fairly. Only Lionel and MTH know if they could have come to an agreement outside of courts, but we know what did happen.....unfortunately!

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Allan, just because Rich Melvin doesn't allow discussion like this on his forum doesn't mean that this is an inappropriate subject.

LMAO!!!

Now that's telling it like it is. We can speak freely here.

[ben10ben]

This topic was someone who was having fun trolling, and nothing more. I hate to see it that so many took the bait(and I'm including myself in that, as I'm posting to this topic), but you see that it was actually quite sucessful. Mark my words that the originator of this topic has no special knowledge of anything coming from MTH at the NMRA convention, nor any special knowledge of trains in general for that matter.

Allan,
I have the highest respect for your opinions, however this time I have to disagree with you. I can certainly understand why the HO scalers should be upset with MTH. It's for the same reason that myself, as an O gauger, don't buy MTH and refuse to.

[Anonymous]

Well, I guess we'll have to wait until next week to find out what this "major announcement" is. I'm not even into HO but I'm very curious myself.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

This topic was someone who was having fun trolling, and nothing more. I hate to see it that so many took the bait(and I'm including myself in that, as I'm posting to this topic), but you see that it was actually quite sucessful. Mark my words that the originator of this topic has no special knowledge of anything coming from MTH at the NMRA convention, nor any special knowledge of trains in general for that matter.

Allan,
I have the highest respect for your opinions, however this time I have to disagree with you. I can certainly understand why the HO scalers should be upset with MTH. It's for the same reason that myself, as an O gauger, don't buy MTH and refuse to.

I agree Ben, Rivet Counter came around and posted this 2 days after the "Whatever happened to..." topic started.

What he fails to realize is, the more he tries to push a pro MTH position here, the more negative things get. Insted of helping MTH, he throws gasoline on the coles of a smoldering fire, and gives people an excuse to really start talking about it again.

Now, people who were once clueless about all of this, are choosing sides. Mostly against MTH. The only real pro MTH comments come from the O gauge faithful.

John, I think by now you know that I'm not afraid to speak my mind around here. Glad you liked that.[;)]

[Anonymous]

"On top of that What is MTH or what do's MTH mean?The name please?
JIM"

Offically MTH... Stands for Mikes Train House

In my eyes MTH = Mike Trashes Hobby.

[AntonioFP45]

Great point Big_Boy!

Now the newbies that have come onboard are familiar with the situation.

I'm guessing that they won't be looking at MTH in a positive light. So the troller did more to damage MTH than help it!

Sometimes it's best to leave sleeping pit bull dogs alone!

[jimrice4449]

Might a person highly gifted with insight percieve that MTH might possibly have something of a PR problem here?

[3railguy]

QUOTE: This topic was someone who was having fun trolling, and nothing more. I hate to see it that so many took the bait(

Actually, Ben, no one took any bait. People are freely expressing their feelings here. The whole thing is comical and entertaining to read actually. This MTH subject has bread like rabits all over this forum. They have been pasted on other forums and the subject is multiplying there. I have never seen a train company take such a beating. There is truly something wrong in MTH marketing for this to happen. Otherwise you would see multi thread Athearn, Kato, and Atlas bashing.

It wasn't until a certain back seat moderator, and I think we all know who I mean, stepped in and the pot really got stirred.

[espeefoamer]

Wow! There sure seems to be a lot of anti MTH sentiment on this forum[B)]. My only comment is,if they(or anyone!) came out with an affordable SP SDP 45 in plastic I would buy it[:p]!!!