What Happened to MTH HO Scale?

[simon1966]

In April 2004 MTH announced HO scale sound. In September 2004 MTH announced the release of the K4 locomotive in HO for delivery in early spring. If you recall, it resulted in a short discussion on this forum![:D] The consensus was that MTH was not welcome in the HO scale market. Anyway, it is now summer 2005 and there is not a mention of the HO scale line on the MTH web site. I have no intention of purchasing one of these if they ever come out, but was curious if they had decided to go ahead with HO or if they had dropped the idea based on the less than enthusiastic response to the announcement?

[ndbprr]

Apparently from what I have heard poor old Mike is in deep doo doo financialy. I have talked with a dealer who now only buys MTH for people who put 100% down ahead of time as deliveries of even O gague engines have been horrible. Poor Mike I feel so bad for him (not!).

[jrbernier]

The last item in their news archive is from Sept 2004. A link in that item mentions expected delivery as late summer 2005. Maybe we will see a sample at the National Train Show?

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

In April 2004 MTH announced HO scale sound. In September 2004 MTH announced the release of the K4 locomotive in HO for delivery in early spring. If you recall, it resulted in a short discussion on this forum![:D] The consensus was that MTH was not welcome in the HO scale market. Anyway, it is now summer 2005 and there is not a mention of the HO scale line on the MTH web site. I have no intention of purchasing one of these if they ever come out, but was curious if they had decided to go ahead with HO or if they had dropped the idea based on the less than enthusiastic response to the announcement?

The last time I looked, Train World was advertising them, but they are not to be seen on any shelves anyplace I know off.

Dont take this wrong, since I have Pennsy engines, but do we need another K4 on the market in HO?? The BLI K4 is a good model and filled the market need for the beloved K4, at least for me.

I am surprised they did not offer a Big Boy or Challenger, since everyone starting up seems to do those first.

Lionel in all their wisdom thought their Challenger would capture the HO world, and might have done better if the price and performance was in line with each other. I can't imagine what they did with all of the first models that were sent back because of running quality or other flaws. Thier blow out sales actually made the model a good value and with Athearn coming to the market the same time, it forced Athearn to reprice their Challenger to match the Lionel pricing.

The Athean Challengers were received with open arms by us even with incorrect and very poor sound and we purchased all of them because the price was right.

Now if only the P2K 2 8 8 2 sounded like a compound engine, the world would be right, at least for a day or so!

Sound can add such a dimension to the hobby, especially if it is correct or even close to the real thing.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually I was recently wondering what happened too. Maybe Mike wised up and dropped it.

There was an interesting topic on Garden Railways the other day, where somebody was asking how to do a reverse loop with DCS. No solid answer came, but the indication was that it couldn't be done in 2 rail. If that is true, DCS is junk. Personally, I can't believe that a system with that large a flaw could be marketed.

Mike should just stick to 3 rail O, that's what he does best.

[Anonymous]

I thought what he did best was to make outrageous claims and threats of frivolous lawsuits against DCC sound decoder makers.

Many HOers will have nothing to do with this person and his company.

[Darth Santa Fe]

The first thing I thought when I saw the MTH HO K4 is, do we really need another K4? So far they have been made by Bachmann Spectrum, Bowser (originaly Pennline) and Broadway Limited.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

I thought what he did best was to make outrageous claims and threats of frivolous lawsuits against DCC sound decoder makers.

Many HOers will have nothing to do with this person and his company.

No George, Mike really does make great 3 rail O gauge trains. It's just that the HO community is more familiar with with his ugly side. I can easily see why so many HO guys are so upset with Mike, and I don't blame them. I think the stunts he's trying to pull are rotten, and I'm a 3 rail O guy. There is a place in the market for Mike, just not in HO. Lionel figured it out. If you are primarily a 3 rail O manufacturer, you aren't going to have much success busting into the HO market. There seems to be a stigma associated with 3 rail O.

The only company that has ever had a clue was Atlas. Atlas started in HO, and moved into N when it became mainsteram. They once had a 2 rail O line but dumped it. When the 3 rail O market expanded in the mid 90's, Atlas jumped back in with both feet, and has been a wonderful addition. I guess you can go from HO to O, but you can't go from O to HO.

[AntonioFP45]

Big Boy,

Good reading your posts. Hadn't seen ya in a while!
(Yes, I know, I need to visit the Coffee Shop more often)

Ditto on your posts. Mike has been a hardworking business man, however, he made the ultimate mistake when he continued rearing the ugly side. He assumed that it would be overlooked by the HO world when he started threatening the DCC manufacturers with litigations. For Mike, who was trying to break in to the HO market and hope to make it his new "Golden Goose", he virtually laid a smelly, rotten egg! [banghead]

That's like a Cincannatti Reds ball player walking into a crowd of Boston Red Sox fans and threatening to shutdown their stadium. Chances of survival would be slim!

Hindsight is 20/20 but, IMHO, had Mike engaged the DCC world with the open platform concept and tried to work with the hobby instead of trying to attack and conquer, he may indeed, by now, been a high player in the Command Control market.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Antonio, I haven't been saying much lately for two reasons. One, the topics of late haven't been much to my taste, and two, I've been spending most of my time working on my layout. I do check the forum at least once a day, but many days go without a single post.

Whatta ya mean Cincinnatti Reds? It's more like a Yankee's fan trying to close Fenway.[swg]

[TrainFreak409]

I am not surprised that Mike's HO K4 hasn't arrived at the station yet. It happens all of the time. I know this by working at a train store. We usually get stuff months after the projected release date. Some items have taken even longer. We had a delivery of a few locomotives that Mr. Purkey had ordered over a year ago.

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TrainFreak409

I am not surprised that Mike's HO K4 hasn't arrived at the station yet. It happens all of the time. I know this by working at a train store. We usually get stuff months after the projected release date. Some items have taken even longer. We had a delivery of a few locomotives that Mr. Purkey had ordered over a year ago.

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

I am certainly not amazed that the loco could be delayed as this seems to happen all the time. What does surprise me is that after the blaze of publicity, there is not a mention of the HO scale items on the MTH web site.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE: Originally posted by TrainFreak409

I am not surprised that Mike's HO K4 hasn't arrived at the station yet. It happens all of the time. I know this by working at a train store. We usually get stuff months after the projected release date. Some items have taken even longer. We had a delivery of a few locomotives that Mr. Purkey had ordered over a year ago.

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

I am certainly not amazed that the loco could be delayed as this seems to happen all the time. What does surprise me is that after the blaze of publicity, there is not a mention of the HO scale items on the MTH web site.

Somehow I get the feeling they didn't get the orders enough to go through with it. The advertising stopped, and the website has nothing. The consumers may have spoken here.

Scott, just because a product is announced doesn't mean that it will be produced. I used to be in the hobby business too.

[Anonymous]

Mike Wolf has no buisness in the real scales, stick to what he does best, over priced toys.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stuckarmchairing

Mike Wolf has no buisness in the real scales, stick to what he does best, over priced toys.

Now be careful about what you say about Mike's 3 rail stuff. Some of it is made for collectors who don't care about realism, but much of it is stuff that 2 rail O scalers would be happy to run. There are some people that do convert trucks and use MTH on O scale layouts.

MTH makes some of the best looking scale cars and locos available in O. I own many cars, but no locomotives. My complaint is with DCS and how it operates, as well as the fact that it is proprietary.

Not to be rude here, but I rather resent the insinuation that 3 rail trains are just over priced toys, and that 2 rail trains are somehow superior. It isn't what kind of trains you run, it's what you do with them that makes them toys or models.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

The only company that has ever had a clue was Atlas. Atlas started in HO, and moved into N when it became mainsteram. They once had a 2 rail O line but dumped it. When the 3 rail O market expanded in the mid 90's, Atlas jumped back in with both feet, and has been a wonderful addition. I guess you can go from HO to O, but you can't go from O to HO.

Everything Atlas make in 3-rail, the make in O- scale 2-rail too.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005
[
Now be careful about what you say about Mike's 3 rail stuff. Some of it is made for collectors who don't care about realism, but much of it is stuff that 2 rail O scalers would be happy to run. There are some people that do convert trucks and use MTH on O scale layouts.

MTH makes some of the best looking scale cars and locos available in O. I own many cars, but no locomotives. My complaint is with DCS and how it operates, as well as the fact that it is proprietary.

Not to be rude here, but I rather resent the insinuation that 3 rail trains are just over priced toys, and that 2 rail trains are somehow superior. It isn't what kind of trains you run, it's what you do with them that makes them toys or models.

I've converted some too. Unfortunately Mike's scale cars are not designed for easy cinversion to 2-rail.
I agree:

"It isn't what kind of trains you run, it's what you do with them that makes them toys or models."

[AntonioFP45]

I still wonder what the status of the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit it?

Just my opinion, but whether MTH is hurting or not, I'm thinking that with the investment made that we will see that K4. Based on the publicity photos, HO modelers on the MTH threads pointed out that it did not look as realistic as BLI's K4. It will likely sell, though perhaps not in huge numbers.

In thinking back, there were two very long MTH threads posted last year. There were "oodles and oodles" of responses. MTH did read them so perhaps they will change their strategy and wait before introducing any more models after the K4.

[Anonymous]

I just have to barge in here, and bash Mike again...What he did to Lionel was NOT 'his bad side', it was a calculated and intentional attack on the company to try and ruin it after he failed in an attempt to purchase it. Not being content to earn millions in sales of outright COPIES of classic Lionel products, he wanted Lionel itself, or for Lionel to cease to exist. I have but 1 MTH Premiere car and indeed it is difficult to convert to 2 rail and it looks poor next to Atlas and Pecos River.

His shenanagans in digital sound are reprehensible. Just to avoid the possibility of having to deal with the bully, the manufacturer of the sound decoder I use has pulled back some features..I loose, and nobody wins.

Mike Wolf has EARNED the ill-will that is coming his way. I would be disappointed if he goes out of business, and his Lawyer partner is dis-barred. These guys are BAD for the hobby as they have bitten the hand that feeds them. I rejoyce in the news that they are in financial trioble, couldn't happen to a more deserving company. There is no need for them to screw up the HO place, they make enough trouble in O!

[AntonioFP45]

Jennifer,

According to the magazine article that was posted about him, the writer seemed to feel that Mike wanted Lionel bankrupted so he could literally take it over. (The robber barons of the Industrial Revolution became "infamous" for this very tactic). Mike worked for Lionel as a teen and young adult until his fallout with it.

Forgive my redundant comment but:

If he does win the QSI lawsuit, then many HO modelers will indeed make sure the word is put out not to support MTH. We're already aware of DCS's flaws. Based on the number of responses on those other two MTH related threads, looks like that's already happening.

If (hopefully when) he loses, then he needs to try to heal the battle wounds and try getting into HO much further into the future. He needs to concentrate on the market he knows best.

Just my 2 cents.

[ndbprr]

Just my opinion, but whether MTH is hurting or not, I'm thinking that with the investment made that we will see that K4. Based on the publicity photos, HO modelers on the MTH threads pointed out that it did not look as realistic as BLI's K4. It will likely sell, though perhaps not in huge numbers.

I'm not sure there ever was any investment. Most of us think he just showed the O gauge version.

[bsteel4065]

I think it's a real shame (hee-hee-hee) about Mike (yeah right!) You reap what you sow.

[AntonioFP45]

Well,

On the other two threads I made some very strong comments about Mike. However, instead of rejoicing it would be good to hope that Mike rethinks his business tactics and strategy.

The battles between Lionel, MTH, and Williams seemed to be the norm for years. Perhaps when he experienced the HUGE backlash from HO modelers when he tried the same tactics with the litigation threats, it may have been a "wake-up call" for him.

Roger that!

[willy6]

As I said before, I have a donkey the MTH can kiss.

[jnichols]

I too am wondering what the outcome of MTH's entry into HO scale will be!?! While I don't share the hatred for Mike Wolf that many on this and other forums do, I would be upset if he didn't follow through and deliver an HO scale product. I for one welcome any new manufacturers to the hobby. This can only bring good things to the consumers as it drives better quality and new technologies.

On a side note, although I have used the DCS system on my small overhead 3-rail layout for years, and with a great deal of satisfaction I might add (I'm still waiting for a DCC system to be released that is as powerful and easy to use as the DCS system is), I too have heard rumors that 2-rail operation under DCS control is not that great. I'm not sure of all the drawbacks, but my guess is for it to be a competitor in the control system market that is so heavily dominated by DCC systems, any and all bugs that would limit operations on 2-rail layouts would have to be eliminated before release.... [;)]

[Anonymous]

I don't know why you scale boys have such a problem with Mike Wolf. Thanks to Mike we've got it made in O gauge. You all need to cut him some slack and wait to see what he comes up with for HO. We are talking toys here so just cool it. It's gonna be a long hot summer.

Red

[ndbprr]

Why do we have a problem? He thinks he invented every aspect of modeling and sues on the drop of a hat claiming to have invented it. In the meantime none of the producers are allowed to sell anything we want like advanced sound decoders and other features. He has sued at least two manufacturers in HO already. Next he will tell us he is Irv Athearn or Gordon Varney reincarnated and claim he owns those companies.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

Why do we have a problem? He thinks he invented every aspect of modeling and sues on the drop of a hat claiming to have invented it. In the meantime none of the producers are allowed to sell anything we want like advanced sound decoders and other features. He has sued at least two manufacturers in HO already.

Not wanting to start a rift here, but which two HO scale manufacturers are you referring to? The only recent lawsuits I'm aware of concerning MTH is the one with Lionel, which has been decided in MTH's favor I might add, and the one with QSI. The QSI lawsuit is a countersuit, i.e. MTH didn't throw the first stone, and concerns the patent infringements on the QSI Proto series sound system. This sound system is used exclusively in large scale equipment on 3-rail track. So what lawsuits with HO scale manufacturers are you thinking of?

[Anonymous]

Although some of his buissiness practices seem reprehensible to me, he does make some great 3 rail products. I have no problem with MTH introducing a DCC equipped loco to HO modelers. But im all against DCS. All that can possibly come of that is confusion over what trains you can run where and on whos track. Heck just DCC and DC is one too many for me. Are we going to have tripple mode decoders now!?! Like I said, I have no problem with MTH entering HO. But no matter what they do Im almost sure they will fail miserably in an HO market. I know I wouldnt buy one and I only see one post on this thread that sounds like a person who might buy an MTH HO engine. Mike, do what you want, but if you really are a good buisiness man you wont waste your money on us HO guys.

[3railguy]

MTH will be reproducing Athearn blue box kits except they will come in a purple box..