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HELP-Train Value?????

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HELP-Train Value?????
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 17, 2005 3:32 AM
Hello,

I have been attempting to sort through my late grandfathers train collection and have run across a few stumpers!

I have been unable to find a train on the internet in order to find out what its true value is before I sell it.

Its made by Associated Hobby Manufacturers, #402, P.R.R. J-1 HO Gauge 2-10-4. I believe its brass as its heavy as hell and it was made in Japan.

Someone attempted to buy it from me for $80 and said it was not worth more than that however, I have the feeling he was trying to rip me off... I found the receipt from one of my other brass trains that said it was purchased in 1968 for $38.00. Doesnt the value go up over time?

Also, is there a good place to go to in order to find out the value of some of his trains, accessories, etc????

Thanks for your help,
Rhonda
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Posted by Jetrock on Friday, June 17, 2005 3:39 AM
Find out for sure if it is brass rather than some other sort of cast metal--don't chip the paint, though!!

A lot depends on condition of paint and how well it runs--if it was unpainted brass and ran smoothly, it could fetch several hundred dollars. If it's shoddily painted brass and runs herky-jerky or not at all, $80 isn't an out-of-line price from a dealer.

But I don't think AHM made brass locomotives, unless it was an import sold under their name. If it's pot-metal it would be worth a lot less.

Value doesn't always go up all the time--like any collector market, much depends on rarity, condition, scarcity and demand.
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Posted by CNJ831 on Friday, June 17, 2005 7:51 AM
Hey guys, AHM most certainly did sell brass locomotives back in the 1960's. If you don't have actual knowledge about a subject wouldn't it be better to hesitate posting?

The AHM, Texas class, 2-10-4 was first offered in 1966. It's maker was KMT. This AHM product is considered by brass authority John Glaab to be a fairly rare model. The Brown Book, 3rd edition, lists its value as of 1994 at $320 in mint condition, $260 average, but those quotes are now nearly a dozen years old. I'd expect at least a 25% to 50% increase over those figures today.

Ronda, my best advice would be to try checking eBay for a while to see if an example shows up there and see what it sells for. That would be the best guide as to the locomotive's current street value.

CNJ831
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:01 PM
Thanks Everyone for the help!
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Posted by cnw4001 on Saturday, June 18, 2005 3:12 PM
The above comments are appropriate and let me add, the real value of something for sale is what the buyer will pay.

Too often we get fixated on a value and end up with an item of any kind not selling as we seek the "book value."

Sure, don't give it away but ask yourself which is of more value, the price some is willing to pay or knowing it's "worth more than that."

Dale
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Posted by TomDiehl on Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:16 AM
Brass, for $38.00 in 1968, I don't think so. I'm old enough to remember that far back and brass locos in the '60's went for at least $100.00. If they're heavy, it's possible they're zamac or some other white metal.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by CNJ831 on Sunday, June 19, 2005 12:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

Brass, for $38.00 in 1968, I don't think so. I'm old enough to remember that far back and brass locos in the '60's went for at least $100.00. If they're heavy, it's possible they're zamac or some other white metal.


Tom - Know before you speak! The brass Pennsy J-1 2-10-4 by AHM is a well documented model. The 1966 list price for this locomotive was $90 and the street price was less. AHM travelled a rough road when it came to dealing in brass (plus many of their other items - AHM had more reorganizations and new names than any company in the hobby's history!). There were some serious discounts on their products, especially when they finally decided to get out of the brass market altogether. A discount/clearance price of $38 by a shop willing to take just about anything to unload this poorly selling model (AHM brass didn't sell well at all) that's been on the shelves for a couple of years isn't surprising to me.

CNJ831
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Posted by Berk-fan284 on Monday, June 20, 2005 7:18 AM
You could try Don Black Bass Trains website to see if they have a comparable brass PRR J1a loco I bought one from them via ebay for about 400.00 (remotored, needing a little TLC), or you could contact them direct I found them to be quite honest in my dealing with them.
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Posted by dknelson on Monday, June 20, 2005 8:24 AM
I remember when the AHM brass 2-10-4 was being sold for about $90 to $100. I sure wanted one! I recall the review in MR and the photo showed some rather blunt detail, including a cheap stamped keystone number plate on the smokebox. I do recall that it was said to run well however
At about that time Tyco/Mantua was still promising a Pennsy J in plastic in their catalog so I held off, hoping .... I do not believe the AHM engine would have run on my (then) 22" radius curves.
AHM also brought in a Milwaukee Road 4-6-4 Baltic (nonstreamlined) that they sold for $99. It had a couple of detail errors but was a nice looking engine. the very next month Pacific Fast Mail advertised the same prototype, in a superior model, for $50 or so.
Back in those days most brass was unpainted and a lof of guys kept it that way.
That was pretty much the story of AHM brass (there might have been a third brass engine, a switcher but here my memory fails me) -- never first class at the time, but a lot of hobby shops that otherwise never carried brass would carry the AHM brass because they also carried the plastic engines.
But whoever thought they could get that 2-10-4 for $80 was trying to pull a fast one.
Dave Nelson
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Posted by CNJ831 on Monday, June 20, 2005 1:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Hey guys, AHM most certainly did sell brass locomotives back in the 1960's. If you don't have actual knowledge about a subject wouldn't it be better to hesitate posting?



Like jetrock said, "But I don't think AHM made brass locomotives, unless it was an import sold under their name. If it's pot-metal it would be worth a lot less." I agreed with him. Then you come here and post "The AHM, Texas class, 2-10-4 was first offered in 1966. It's maker was KMT." Well isn't that an IMPORT? Was it sold under AHM's name? Isn't that what jetrock said and that I agreed with? Maybe you should rethink your posts before you go off on people. At least I learned something today.



Every brass locomotive is an import but virtually all are sold under somebody elses name. Do you think OMI, Precision, MTS, et al. ever made their own brass models in-house? And, yes, AHM sold the model under their name and it is listed as such in the Brown Book. Over the years AHM, in its many incarnations, sold model railroad equipment from all over the world boxed and sold under their company name.

What I find agitating is how quickly some individuals were willing to jump right in and incorrectly answer an outsider's serious question (involving big bucks) without having any definitive knowledge of the subject at hand! If you aren't sure of an answer, isn't it far better to hesitate a bit and see if a more informed source offers something, rather than to jump right in and look foolish?

CNJ831
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Posted by csmith9474 on Monday, June 20, 2005 2:09 PM
Ultimately, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Smitty
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Posted by rrinker on Monday, June 20, 2005 2:20 PM
AHM DID import brass under their own name. I have the old issues of Model Railroader with a review of at leastone of their models in it. They weren't all brass though. They (at least the reviewed model) were a mix of brass and heavy metal (probably zamak). They definitely weren;t state of the art, even at the time, but they also carried a price that was considerably lower thant he state of the art stuff rom PFM and others.
I'll have to go dig out the issue with the review to see exactly which loco it was and what the actual list price was.

--Randy

Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 20, 2005 3:21 PM
Now I am confused.

Maybe Andy or someone with authority from MR can go to the vault and research this item from one of the mid 60's issues.

For example Ive seen PRR J-1 (Which I have a BLI Copy) or a Texas type words used in this thread. I HUMBLY state that Texas and J-1 are TWO different animals. Which is it?

Is it possible for the owner of this locomotive to post a digital photograph from several different angles and from below?

We can all examine and then decide what is what.
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Posted by orsonroy on Monday, June 20, 2005 3:29 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Every brass locomotive is an import but virtually all are sold under somebody elses name. Do you think OMI, Precision, MTS, et al. ever made their own brass models in-house? And, yes, AHM sold the model under their name and it is listed as such in the Brown Book. Over the years AHM, in its many incarnations, sold model railroad equipment from all over the world boxed and sold under their company name.


Actually, several brass engines WERE at one time made right here in the USA, the old Kemtron Wabash 2-6-0 being the most famous (now available through Pre Scale, so it's STILL made in the USA). Athabasca Scale Shops also makes at least one brass steamer in the USA, a NYC 4-6-0. Who's jumping in with incorrect information now?

QUOTE:
What I find agitating is how quickly some individuals were willing to jump right in and incorrectly answer an outsider's serious question (involving big bucks) without having any definitive knowledge of the subject at hand! If you aren't sure of an answer, isn't it far better to hesitate a bit and see if a more informed source offers something, rather than to jump right in and look foolish?
CNJ831

This is an online forum, a place for opinion, BS and outright lies to live. Really. Anyone asking for ANY information online has to take it with a grain of salt and take their chances.

No one has actually LIED on this thread, so there's nothing to get all hot & bothered about. People said "I think...", making their commentary an opinion, not a statement of fact. So what? Relax......

BTW: brown book value for brass models is so out of date so as to make it's proces completely worthless. Ebay is now the ONLY driving force behind the used brass sales market, since it's so convienent, high exposure, and fair market driven. To Rhonda: keep an eye on Ebay for "2-10-4", in the model trains section. Eventually, three of these engines will pass through, giving you a "real world" price for your engine. It might not be a quick & easy answer to your question, but it's the best one any of us have. If you try to sell it for an overinflated price (and old brass pricing fluctuates WILDLY) you'll never get rid of the thing.

Ray Breyer

Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943

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Posted by CNJ831 on Monday, June 20, 2005 6:01 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
Every brass locomotive is an import but virtually all are sold under somebody elses name. Do you think OMI, Precision, MTS, et al. ever made their own brass models in-house? And, yes, AHM sold the model under their name and it is listed as such in the Brown Book. Over the years AHM, in its many incarnations, sold model railroad equipment from all over the world boxed and sold under their company name.


Actually, several brass engines WERE at one time made right here in the USA, the old Kemtron Wabash 2-6-0 being the most famous (now available through Pre Scale, so it's STILL made in the USA). Athabasca Scale Shops also makes at least one brass steamer in the USA, a NYC 4-6-0. Who's jumping in with incorrect information now?

QUOTE:
What I find agitating is how quickly some individuals were willing to jump right in and incorrectly answer an outsider's serious question (involving big bucks) without having any definitive knowledge of the subject at hand! If you aren't sure of an answer, isn't it far better to hesitate a bit and see if a more informed source offers something, rather than to jump right in and look foolish?
CNJ831

This is an online forum, a place for opinion, BS and outright lies to live. Really. Anyone asking for ANY information online has to take it with a grain of salt and take their chances.

No one has actually LIED on this thread, so there's nothing to get all hot & bothered about. People said "I think...", making their commentary an opinion, not a statement of fact. So what? Relax......

BTW: brown book value for brass models is so out of date so as to make it's proces completely worthless. Ebay is now the ONLY driving force behind the used brass sales market, since it's so convienent, high exposure, and fair market driven. To Rhonda: keep an eye on Ebay for "2-10-4", in the model trains section. Eventually, three of these engines will pass through, giving you a "real world" price for your engine. It might not be a quick & easy answer to your question, but it's the best one any of us have. If you try to sell it for an overinflated price (and old brass pricing fluctuates WILDLY) you'll never get rid of the thing.


Yes, I'm well aware that in the very beginning of brass a few models were American made but that amounted to perhaps 2% of the total even then, relative to 98% brought in from Japan and sold under names other than the actual maker. The analogy for what is under discussion here is irrelevant - AHM sold Japanese brass under the AHM name, not the actual maker's, period.

If, as you say, these forums are no more than just a place for opinion, B.S. and out right lies to live, then it is indeed a very sad reflection on the value of the Internet, a source so many contend is replacing the value of magazines, LHS chats, and club sages. Likewise, if anyone asking a serious question (particularly a layman turning to the MR forum for help) needs to take their chances with any reply obtained from what most consider the premier model railroading info source, then it is even more dismaying. I guess they are probably better off not asking at all. With personal regret, I will agree with your statement to a certain degree, since I typically see more misinformation on model railroading forms, than good, solid, authorative advice. It's quite sad.

On the other hand, I would strongly contest your remarks regarding the Brown Book. While its valuations may no longer be perfectly accurate (probably off by 25%-50%, depending on the engine) the additional information contained therein regarding who offered what, when, at what price and how many were made, can not be found from any other single source that I am aware of. It remains an excellent reference work and documents the brass market from its earliest days up until the early 1990's.

And if you read my original post, I had advised Rhonda that the best course to follow was to examine eBay sales as a reasonable price reference.

CNJ831
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Posted by selector on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:49 PM
Where did Katie go? Hello, Katie? Gosh, with all of the self-absorbed rancour on this thread, I guess she just left.
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Posted by csmith9474 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:08 PM
Good call selector. This is one that I wish we could sweep under the rug!!
Smitty
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Posted by CNJ831 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:12 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

What I find agitating is people who jump on other people just because they think they know more then them. Go back and read this thread and your comments. Dude, you came across like a complete know it all and disrespected myself, jetrock and TomDiehl with your very smartass replies. There is no excuse for that. You can stick you Brown book in the garbage were it belongs. Anything that as you say is 25 to 50% off is garbage and serves no purpose. Much like argueing with no it alls on the internet, it serves no purpose.


The classic response and example of a dullard!

CNJ831
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Posted by csmith9474 on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:30 PM
Let's give this one a rest. This is a bad way to represent the forum. This thread has totally derailed and is way off the original topic. Please.
Smitty

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