Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. No comment. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 20, 2005 9:06 PM Any model train mechanisim should run free but not sloppy to minimize motor loading. Steam type engines must have all drivers quartered the same to eliminate siderod bind. The valvegear must be free with no tight spots.(If loco has that equipment.) The last thing is the proper lubrication. I suggest Labelle 106 grease on the worm & worm gear, (commonly called a spur gear.) 107medium oil on motor shafts, siderods & valvegear. All of these lubricants mentioned are plastic compatible. Use lubricants sparingly as they can cause problems that you don't need. All mechanisims should be clean and free from dirt before you even start to chase down tight spots. Reply Edit mcouvillion Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northeast Houston 576 posts Posted by mcouvillion on Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:51 AM BNSF Railfan, I've got an old Revell 0-6-0 steam engine with smoke generator, "chuffing sound", and a yellow headlight. When I have run it, it ambles down the track just as pretty as you please. After a few minutes, it is HOT, just like a real steam engine. Nothing wrong with it, that's just the way it is. Yes, it pulls a bunch of current, no, I do not intend to put a decoder in it, and yes, it has been fully disassembled and carefully aligned and lubed. Just another take on whether an engine is supposed to be hot or not. Mark C. Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Saturday, May 21, 2005 1:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler. Holy crawfish!! If you value your time at all that is a no-win deal. I would buy a new locomotive before I ever went to that much work. [;)] -Jerry Reply Eriediamond Member sinceMarch 2016 1,447 posts Posted by Eriediamond on Saturday, May 21, 2005 6:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler. Holy crawfish!! If you value your time at all that is a no-win deal. I would buy a new locomotive before I ever went to that much work. [;)] [/quote Patience my son, patience. All good things come with time. Sometimes patience and time can have great rewards. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:55 AM To the roaring lion: A smoke generator is supposed to get hot (that's how it makes smoke). But, is your MOTOR running hot? To roadtripper: A new locomotive needs the same attention given its older cousin, and when one considers that new brass engines these days are running $1,000+ a pop, buying new engines is not a solution. Even the new plastic U.P. mountains are going for $325 -- what you pay for a good, used brass one -- so the question is: Do you want a model with running characteristics commensurate with the detail you have paid so much for? Yes, what I have described appears to be a lot of work; however, remember: What an individual modeler confronts USUALLY is ONE of the problems listed, e.g. out-of-quarter drivers. A non-articulated brass locomotive comes apart with three screws (one under the cylinders and two either under or behind the cab) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble, provided you are careful not to screw up the headlight. There are two screws affixing the motor-worm-gearbox assembly to the spur (the two screws holding the gearbox cover) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble in order to check preliminarily quarter and motion-plate placement. Similarly, to check for a bent shaft, just run the motor at several speeds and see if anything is wobbling when it shouldn't (this usually is very obvious). Two more screws (usually on the side) get you inside the gearbox, so how long does it take to inspect the gears with the jeweler's loop? And as for lubrication, that has to be done occasionally anyway, new engine or not -- you would gain nothing by replacing your menagerie. I agree that the motor mount, in terms of angle, is a seperate issue -- this can be a real pain to fix --; fortunately, because of modern machine tooling, it is a more uncommon problem (unless EVERY motor in that manufacturer's particular run is off). But, in responding to Mr. Love's initial inquiry, I am obliged to consider the possibility, since aside from his profession of appreciation for a modern-merger road, he gave no indication re what he was running -- his problem MIGHT be anything which COULD affect ANY form of power. Finally, an editorial comment here: There is no "right" way to model railroads -- it is your hobby; do it the way you want! However, FOR ME, I find increasingly that "model railroaders" slowly are being replaced by "model train runners" -- people not willing even to assemble "shake-the-box" kits to get their freight over the road, people for whom "instant gratification" isn't fast enough. This, to my mind, is not model railroading -- not the approach which, by far, makes this "the world's greatest hobby." Think, for a moment, about what it takes to be a master model railroader: Without carpentry skills, you have no foundation; without electrical skills, you have no power; without engineering skills, you have no right of way; without construction skills, you have no scenery; without electronics skills, you have neither signals nor sound; without metalworking skills, you have no motive power (unless you have a very large bankroll); and, while I assume we all can afford Athearn, without model-building skills, you have no unique rolling stock. To create believable natural scenes, you need to know something about geology, meteorology, and the organization of biological systems; to create believable industries your railroad can serve, you need to know something about industrial processes and history. Do any people appear in your railroad scenes? God save the man who dares to model 1950 if all the female passengers on his station platform appear attired in mini-skirts! Without these myriad skills, our efforts inevitably are condemned to being a cut below what we could have achieved. Does this take a lot of work? Of course, it does! Anything worth anything takes a lot of work -- a lot of trial, a lot of error, and often failure. However, allow me to pass on some advice from the "mysterious Mr. Woodard" (former superintendent of Lima Locomotive Works during the 1920s): We are not measured by how we succeed -- good men inevitably will have their success --; rather, we are measured by how we fail -- a person who never fails is never taking risks, and a person who never takes risks is one who never learns anything more than what he already knows. There are two attitudes one can have in approaching this hobby: Either it is a medium merely for occupying our time (something to offer us escape from the hassles of real life), or it is a medium for advancing our abilities and expanding our knowledge of the world we live in. If there be any difference between model railroaders and model-train runners, it is that the latter approach the hobby from the former perspective, while the former approach the hobby from the latter. Like Thomas, the tank engine, model railroaders think they can. Take the time to acquire the skills you need to appreciate this hobby in all its depth and wonder, starting with WHY your motor is smoking -- trust me: You will never regret that decision! Reply johncolley Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: PtTownsendWA 1,445 posts Posted by johncolley on Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:16 AM Here is a different fish! I have a consist with a dummy Stewart FT- B unit full of sound only. Two woofers and a tweeter powered from a Sountraxx ds150 first generation diesel decoder that is mounted right under the exhaust stacks. It runs quite warm, but so far I have not been able to run it long enough to get really hot. Just back and forth on an 8' module. It is in an ABBA lashup and the other three are powered. It runs and sounds great and I am waiting for a Free-mo meet in June to try it out for a good run. jc5729 Reply Eriediamond Member sinceMarch 2016 1,447 posts Posted by Eriediamond on Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:06 AM BNSF railfan, IMHO, a locomotive that is running hot is caused by over working it. This coud be caused by a number of things or combination of things, including: pulling too heavy trains, running in a multible lash up with engines with different gear ratios, lack of or over lubrication, wrong type of lubrication, engine not broken in, misalignment of moving parts(side rods, wheel quartering,etc on steam engines),trucks on diesels not rotating freely, wrong type of power to the tracks. The fun part of all this is to isolate and fix the problem. My suggestion is, if your not comfortable tearing it down, find someone that does repair work at your club or hobby shop. Ken Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:22 PM John Colley, I also have a DSD-150, but not installed in anything, that seems to get overly hot even though it's not hooked to a motor. I had it hooked to a 1W speaker without the cap in series while I was checking out a problem with a DSD-LL110LC, and for the short time it was on, it got so hot I couldn't touch it. Do all the DSD-150's run this hot? Bob Hayes Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:25 PM BNSF railfan, You never did tell us what engine you were running that got so hot; manufacturer, scale, does it have traction tires, etc. Bob Hayes Reply railroadyoshi Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Eastern Massachusetts 1,681 posts Posted by railroadyoshi on Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:26 PM I would like to thank all these contributors for their advice, i have an old used Penn that used to overheat every 30 minutes. the friendly people at my local shop said the same thing, it needs tuning -Siddharth Yoshi "Grammar? Whom Cares?" http://yfcorp.googlepages.com-Railfanning Reply DBMitchell Member sinceDecember 2003 13 posts Posted by DBMitchell on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:50 AM I also have a Penn Line engine from 1953. It got hot about 1968, caused by the magnet loosing magnetism. Lately I have installed an A-Line Helix Humper replacement drive and all is now well. Have had Athearn ceramic magnets crack / disintegrate also, one of the problems of being in the hobby for over 50 years Reply Boxcar Willy Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Paradise, Kelowna, B.C. Moved from PARADISE to AB. 10 posts Posted by Boxcar Willy on Thursday, June 2, 2005 1:27 PM To No Bull chips I have to say thumbs up on ur reply. Reply mcouvillion Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northeast Houston 576 posts Posted by mcouvillion on Friday, June 3, 2005 11:21 PM The original question, and the topic of this discussion, is "Has anyone ever had problems with their Locomotives getting very hot during an extended running period on your layout?". Everyone seems to think that they get hot only because the motor is binding or some other related problem. My answer addressed the original topic and question. I believe the reason my 0-6-0 pulls a lot of current is not because of the motor, but because of the smoke generator. Yes, my locomotive gets HOT, but it will run and run and run. Thank you, but I don't need someone telling me how to set up and repair my engines. I do that just fine. Mark C. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 4, 2005 4:21 AM ok i dont know if they have them in trains but in radio controlled and remote controlled cars ect people put a heatsink on the motor. It is basically extra metal wrapped around the motor to help absorb heat. pavariangoo Reply Edit myost Member sinceAugust 2004 2 posts Posted by myost on Friday, June 10, 2005 10:42 AM One point that has not come up is DC motors will run hot if the power supplied has too much AC ripple. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Monday, June 13, 2005 12:30 AM They also can run hot if one runs them on pulse power, especially under heavy load. Reply Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
No comment. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 20, 2005 9:06 PM Any model train mechanisim should run free but not sloppy to minimize motor loading. Steam type engines must have all drivers quartered the same to eliminate siderod bind. The valvegear must be free with no tight spots.(If loco has that equipment.) The last thing is the proper lubrication. I suggest Labelle 106 grease on the worm & worm gear, (commonly called a spur gear.) 107medium oil on motor shafts, siderods & valvegear. All of these lubricants mentioned are plastic compatible. Use lubricants sparingly as they can cause problems that you don't need. All mechanisims should be clean and free from dirt before you even start to chase down tight spots. Reply Edit mcouvillion Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northeast Houston 576 posts Posted by mcouvillion on Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:51 AM BNSF Railfan, I've got an old Revell 0-6-0 steam engine with smoke generator, "chuffing sound", and a yellow headlight. When I have run it, it ambles down the track just as pretty as you please. After a few minutes, it is HOT, just like a real steam engine. Nothing wrong with it, that's just the way it is. Yes, it pulls a bunch of current, no, I do not intend to put a decoder in it, and yes, it has been fully disassembled and carefully aligned and lubed. Just another take on whether an engine is supposed to be hot or not. Mark C. Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Saturday, May 21, 2005 1:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler. Holy crawfish!! If you value your time at all that is a no-win deal. I would buy a new locomotive before I ever went to that much work. [;)] -Jerry Reply Eriediamond Member sinceMarch 2016 1,447 posts Posted by Eriediamond on Saturday, May 21, 2005 6:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler. Holy crawfish!! If you value your time at all that is a no-win deal. I would buy a new locomotive before I ever went to that much work. [;)] [/quote Patience my son, patience. All good things come with time. Sometimes patience and time can have great rewards. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:55 AM To the roaring lion: A smoke generator is supposed to get hot (that's how it makes smoke). But, is your MOTOR running hot? To roadtripper: A new locomotive needs the same attention given its older cousin, and when one considers that new brass engines these days are running $1,000+ a pop, buying new engines is not a solution. Even the new plastic U.P. mountains are going for $325 -- what you pay for a good, used brass one -- so the question is: Do you want a model with running characteristics commensurate with the detail you have paid so much for? Yes, what I have described appears to be a lot of work; however, remember: What an individual modeler confronts USUALLY is ONE of the problems listed, e.g. out-of-quarter drivers. A non-articulated brass locomotive comes apart with three screws (one under the cylinders and two either under or behind the cab) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble, provided you are careful not to screw up the headlight. There are two screws affixing the motor-worm-gearbox assembly to the spur (the two screws holding the gearbox cover) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble in order to check preliminarily quarter and motion-plate placement. Similarly, to check for a bent shaft, just run the motor at several speeds and see if anything is wobbling when it shouldn't (this usually is very obvious). Two more screws (usually on the side) get you inside the gearbox, so how long does it take to inspect the gears with the jeweler's loop? And as for lubrication, that has to be done occasionally anyway, new engine or not -- you would gain nothing by replacing your menagerie. I agree that the motor mount, in terms of angle, is a seperate issue -- this can be a real pain to fix --; fortunately, because of modern machine tooling, it is a more uncommon problem (unless EVERY motor in that manufacturer's particular run is off). But, in responding to Mr. Love's initial inquiry, I am obliged to consider the possibility, since aside from his profession of appreciation for a modern-merger road, he gave no indication re what he was running -- his problem MIGHT be anything which COULD affect ANY form of power. Finally, an editorial comment here: There is no "right" way to model railroads -- it is your hobby; do it the way you want! However, FOR ME, I find increasingly that "model railroaders" slowly are being replaced by "model train runners" -- people not willing even to assemble "shake-the-box" kits to get their freight over the road, people for whom "instant gratification" isn't fast enough. This, to my mind, is not model railroading -- not the approach which, by far, makes this "the world's greatest hobby." Think, for a moment, about what it takes to be a master model railroader: Without carpentry skills, you have no foundation; without electrical skills, you have no power; without engineering skills, you have no right of way; without construction skills, you have no scenery; without electronics skills, you have neither signals nor sound; without metalworking skills, you have no motive power (unless you have a very large bankroll); and, while I assume we all can afford Athearn, without model-building skills, you have no unique rolling stock. To create believable natural scenes, you need to know something about geology, meteorology, and the organization of biological systems; to create believable industries your railroad can serve, you need to know something about industrial processes and history. Do any people appear in your railroad scenes? God save the man who dares to model 1950 if all the female passengers on his station platform appear attired in mini-skirts! Without these myriad skills, our efforts inevitably are condemned to being a cut below what we could have achieved. Does this take a lot of work? Of course, it does! Anything worth anything takes a lot of work -- a lot of trial, a lot of error, and often failure. However, allow me to pass on some advice from the "mysterious Mr. Woodard" (former superintendent of Lima Locomotive Works during the 1920s): We are not measured by how we succeed -- good men inevitably will have their success --; rather, we are measured by how we fail -- a person who never fails is never taking risks, and a person who never takes risks is one who never learns anything more than what he already knows. There are two attitudes one can have in approaching this hobby: Either it is a medium merely for occupying our time (something to offer us escape from the hassles of real life), or it is a medium for advancing our abilities and expanding our knowledge of the world we live in. If there be any difference between model railroaders and model-train runners, it is that the latter approach the hobby from the former perspective, while the former approach the hobby from the latter. Like Thomas, the tank engine, model railroaders think they can. Take the time to acquire the skills you need to appreciate this hobby in all its depth and wonder, starting with WHY your motor is smoking -- trust me: You will never regret that decision! Reply johncolley Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: PtTownsendWA 1,445 posts Posted by johncolley on Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:16 AM Here is a different fish! I have a consist with a dummy Stewart FT- B unit full of sound only. Two woofers and a tweeter powered from a Sountraxx ds150 first generation diesel decoder that is mounted right under the exhaust stacks. It runs quite warm, but so far I have not been able to run it long enough to get really hot. Just back and forth on an 8' module. It is in an ABBA lashup and the other three are powered. It runs and sounds great and I am waiting for a Free-mo meet in June to try it out for a good run. jc5729 Reply Eriediamond Member sinceMarch 2016 1,447 posts Posted by Eriediamond on Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:06 AM BNSF railfan, IMHO, a locomotive that is running hot is caused by over working it. This coud be caused by a number of things or combination of things, including: pulling too heavy trains, running in a multible lash up with engines with different gear ratios, lack of or over lubrication, wrong type of lubrication, engine not broken in, misalignment of moving parts(side rods, wheel quartering,etc on steam engines),trucks on diesels not rotating freely, wrong type of power to the tracks. The fun part of all this is to isolate and fix the problem. My suggestion is, if your not comfortable tearing it down, find someone that does repair work at your club or hobby shop. Ken Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:22 PM John Colley, I also have a DSD-150, but not installed in anything, that seems to get overly hot even though it's not hooked to a motor. I had it hooked to a 1W speaker without the cap in series while I was checking out a problem with a DSD-LL110LC, and for the short time it was on, it got so hot I couldn't touch it. Do all the DSD-150's run this hot? Bob Hayes Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:25 PM BNSF railfan, You never did tell us what engine you were running that got so hot; manufacturer, scale, does it have traction tires, etc. Bob Hayes Reply railroadyoshi Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Eastern Massachusetts 1,681 posts Posted by railroadyoshi on Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:26 PM I would like to thank all these contributors for their advice, i have an old used Penn that used to overheat every 30 minutes. the friendly people at my local shop said the same thing, it needs tuning -Siddharth Yoshi "Grammar? Whom Cares?" http://yfcorp.googlepages.com-Railfanning Reply DBMitchell Member sinceDecember 2003 13 posts Posted by DBMitchell on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:50 AM I also have a Penn Line engine from 1953. It got hot about 1968, caused by the magnet loosing magnetism. Lately I have installed an A-Line Helix Humper replacement drive and all is now well. Have had Athearn ceramic magnets crack / disintegrate also, one of the problems of being in the hobby for over 50 years Reply Boxcar Willy Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Paradise, Kelowna, B.C. Moved from PARADISE to AB. 10 posts Posted by Boxcar Willy on Thursday, June 2, 2005 1:27 PM To No Bull chips I have to say thumbs up on ur reply. Reply mcouvillion Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northeast Houston 576 posts Posted by mcouvillion on Friday, June 3, 2005 11:21 PM The original question, and the topic of this discussion, is "Has anyone ever had problems with their Locomotives getting very hot during an extended running period on your layout?". Everyone seems to think that they get hot only because the motor is binding or some other related problem. My answer addressed the original topic and question. I believe the reason my 0-6-0 pulls a lot of current is not because of the motor, but because of the smoke generator. Yes, my locomotive gets HOT, but it will run and run and run. Thank you, but I don't need someone telling me how to set up and repair my engines. I do that just fine. Mark C. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 4, 2005 4:21 AM ok i dont know if they have them in trains but in radio controlled and remote controlled cars ect people put a heatsink on the motor. It is basically extra metal wrapped around the motor to help absorb heat. pavariangoo Reply Edit myost Member sinceAugust 2004 2 posts Posted by myost on Friday, June 10, 2005 10:42 AM One point that has not come up is DC motors will run hot if the power supplied has too much AC ripple. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Monday, June 13, 2005 12:30 AM They also can run hot if one runs them on pulse power, especially under heavy load. Reply Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler. Holy crawfish!! If you value your time at all that is a no-win deal. I would buy a new locomotive before I ever went to that much work. [;)] [/quote Patience my son, patience. All good things come with time. Sometimes patience and time can have great rewards. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:55 AM To the roaring lion: A smoke generator is supposed to get hot (that's how it makes smoke). But, is your MOTOR running hot? To roadtripper: A new locomotive needs the same attention given its older cousin, and when one considers that new brass engines these days are running $1,000+ a pop, buying new engines is not a solution. Even the new plastic U.P. mountains are going for $325 -- what you pay for a good, used brass one -- so the question is: Do you want a model with running characteristics commensurate with the detail you have paid so much for? Yes, what I have described appears to be a lot of work; however, remember: What an individual modeler confronts USUALLY is ONE of the problems listed, e.g. out-of-quarter drivers. A non-articulated brass locomotive comes apart with three screws (one under the cylinders and two either under or behind the cab) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble, provided you are careful not to screw up the headlight. There are two screws affixing the motor-worm-gearbox assembly to the spur (the two screws holding the gearbox cover) -- NOT a lot of work to disassemble in order to check preliminarily quarter and motion-plate placement. Similarly, to check for a bent shaft, just run the motor at several speeds and see if anything is wobbling when it shouldn't (this usually is very obvious). Two more screws (usually on the side) get you inside the gearbox, so how long does it take to inspect the gears with the jeweler's loop? And as for lubrication, that has to be done occasionally anyway, new engine or not -- you would gain nothing by replacing your menagerie. I agree that the motor mount, in terms of angle, is a seperate issue -- this can be a real pain to fix --; fortunately, because of modern machine tooling, it is a more uncommon problem (unless EVERY motor in that manufacturer's particular run is off). But, in responding to Mr. Love's initial inquiry, I am obliged to consider the possibility, since aside from his profession of appreciation for a modern-merger road, he gave no indication re what he was running -- his problem MIGHT be anything which COULD affect ANY form of power. Finally, an editorial comment here: There is no "right" way to model railroads -- it is your hobby; do it the way you want! However, FOR ME, I find increasingly that "model railroaders" slowly are being replaced by "model train runners" -- people not willing even to assemble "shake-the-box" kits to get their freight over the road, people for whom "instant gratification" isn't fast enough. This, to my mind, is not model railroading -- not the approach which, by far, makes this "the world's greatest hobby." Think, for a moment, about what it takes to be a master model railroader: Without carpentry skills, you have no foundation; without electrical skills, you have no power; without engineering skills, you have no right of way; without construction skills, you have no scenery; without electronics skills, you have neither signals nor sound; without metalworking skills, you have no motive power (unless you have a very large bankroll); and, while I assume we all can afford Athearn, without model-building skills, you have no unique rolling stock. To create believable natural scenes, you need to know something about geology, meteorology, and the organization of biological systems; to create believable industries your railroad can serve, you need to know something about industrial processes and history. Do any people appear in your railroad scenes? God save the man who dares to model 1950 if all the female passengers on his station platform appear attired in mini-skirts! Without these myriad skills, our efforts inevitably are condemned to being a cut below what we could have achieved. Does this take a lot of work? Of course, it does! Anything worth anything takes a lot of work -- a lot of trial, a lot of error, and often failure. However, allow me to pass on some advice from the "mysterious Mr. Woodard" (former superintendent of Lima Locomotive Works during the 1920s): We are not measured by how we succeed -- good men inevitably will have their success --; rather, we are measured by how we fail -- a person who never fails is never taking risks, and a person who never takes risks is one who never learns anything more than what he already knows. There are two attitudes one can have in approaching this hobby: Either it is a medium merely for occupying our time (something to offer us escape from the hassles of real life), or it is a medium for advancing our abilities and expanding our knowledge of the world we live in. If there be any difference between model railroaders and model-train runners, it is that the latter approach the hobby from the former perspective, while the former approach the hobby from the latter. Like Thomas, the tank engine, model railroaders think they can. Take the time to acquire the skills you need to appreciate this hobby in all its depth and wonder, starting with WHY your motor is smoking -- trust me: You will never regret that decision! Reply johncolley Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: PtTownsendWA 1,445 posts Posted by johncolley on Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:16 AM Here is a different fish! I have a consist with a dummy Stewart FT- B unit full of sound only. Two woofers and a tweeter powered from a Sountraxx ds150 first generation diesel decoder that is mounted right under the exhaust stacks. It runs quite warm, but so far I have not been able to run it long enough to get really hot. Just back and forth on an 8' module. It is in an ABBA lashup and the other three are powered. It runs and sounds great and I am waiting for a Free-mo meet in June to try it out for a good run. jc5729 Reply Eriediamond Member sinceMarch 2016 1,447 posts Posted by Eriediamond on Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:06 AM BNSF railfan, IMHO, a locomotive that is running hot is caused by over working it. This coud be caused by a number of things or combination of things, including: pulling too heavy trains, running in a multible lash up with engines with different gear ratios, lack of or over lubrication, wrong type of lubrication, engine not broken in, misalignment of moving parts(side rods, wheel quartering,etc on steam engines),trucks on diesels not rotating freely, wrong type of power to the tracks. The fun part of all this is to isolate and fix the problem. My suggestion is, if your not comfortable tearing it down, find someone that does repair work at your club or hobby shop. Ken Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:22 PM John Colley, I also have a DSD-150, but not installed in anything, that seems to get overly hot even though it's not hooked to a motor. I had it hooked to a 1W speaker without the cap in series while I was checking out a problem with a DSD-LL110LC, and for the short time it was on, it got so hot I couldn't touch it. Do all the DSD-150's run this hot? Bob Hayes Reply Bob Hayes Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Chiloquin, OR 284 posts Posted by Bob Hayes on Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:25 PM BNSF railfan, You never did tell us what engine you were running that got so hot; manufacturer, scale, does it have traction tires, etc. Bob Hayes Reply railroadyoshi Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Eastern Massachusetts 1,681 posts Posted by railroadyoshi on Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:26 PM I would like to thank all these contributors for their advice, i have an old used Penn that used to overheat every 30 minutes. the friendly people at my local shop said the same thing, it needs tuning -Siddharth Yoshi "Grammar? Whom Cares?" http://yfcorp.googlepages.com-Railfanning Reply DBMitchell Member sinceDecember 2003 13 posts Posted by DBMitchell on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:50 AM I also have a Penn Line engine from 1953. It got hot about 1968, caused by the magnet loosing magnetism. Lately I have installed an A-Line Helix Humper replacement drive and all is now well. Have had Athearn ceramic magnets crack / disintegrate also, one of the problems of being in the hobby for over 50 years Reply Boxcar Willy Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Paradise, Kelowna, B.C. Moved from PARADISE to AB. 10 posts Posted by Boxcar Willy on Thursday, June 2, 2005 1:27 PM To No Bull chips I have to say thumbs up on ur reply. Reply mcouvillion Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Northeast Houston 576 posts Posted by mcouvillion on Friday, June 3, 2005 11:21 PM The original question, and the topic of this discussion, is "Has anyone ever had problems with their Locomotives getting very hot during an extended running period on your layout?". Everyone seems to think that they get hot only because the motor is binding or some other related problem. My answer addressed the original topic and question. I believe the reason my 0-6-0 pulls a lot of current is not because of the motor, but because of the smoke generator. Yes, my locomotive gets HOT, but it will run and run and run. Thank you, but I don't need someone telling me how to set up and repair my engines. I do that just fine. Mark C. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 4, 2005 4:21 AM ok i dont know if they have them in trains but in radio controlled and remote controlled cars ect people put a heatsink on the motor. It is basically extra metal wrapped around the motor to help absorb heat. pavariangoo Reply Edit myost Member sinceAugust 2004 2 posts Posted by myost on Friday, June 10, 2005 10:42 AM One point that has not come up is DC motors will run hot if the power supplied has too much AC ripple. Reply nobullchitbids Member sinceFebruary 2012 257 posts Posted by nobullchitbids on Monday, June 13, 2005 12:30 AM They also can run hot if one runs them on pulse power, especially under heavy load. Reply Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by nobullchitbids I will assume that anyone who signs in as "BNSF Fan" isn't running steam engines. For those who are, here are some pointers so far missed: To operate correctly, a steam locomotive's drivers must be either quartered or trined, and the quarter must match exactly on all drivers. Even an error of a couple of thousandths is enough to cause an improperly quartered mechanism to bind, twice each stroke. Beyond that, anything which causes any lockup between the drive gear and the motor can make the motor work too hard and possibly overheat. Start "doctorin'" your iron horse by manually checking the mechanism -- remove the motor, worm and gearbox so that the mechanism will run freely. Place the mechanism on a glass surface -- a large picture frame, baking dish, a tile floor, &c. Pu***he mechanism forward and watch the wheels -- all should turn freely, even on the glass. If they lock up anywhere, the problem lies either in the quartering or in the stroke adjustment at the motion plate (valve-gear holder). That is assuming you do not have a bent rod, axle, or valve-gear part. If the problem lies in the motion plate, then the mechanism will pass the glass-plate test with the valve gear disconnected at the eccentric. If not, you will have to requarter the drivers (all of them, so that the quarter matches). NWSL makes a jig for this, and you also will need a NWSL "Puller" to get the driver off. With drivers quartered and motion plate properly located, it is time to look at the drive gear: Is it squarely mounted in the center of the axle? If not, it needs to be reseated (don't forget to maintain the quarter when reinstalling the driver). Now, inspect the gearbox: Is there wear on the mounts which makes the axle "float" in the box? If so, replace the gearbox. Now, check both worm and spur with a ten-power glass (jeweler's loop): There should be no burrs or edges in any of the teeth or grooves. If there are, remove them carefully with a small file. What about the worm bearings? They also should not be worn, so that the worm on its shaft runs true. The worm, no more than the axle, should not float in its mounting. Another critical area is the interface between worm and spur -- the mesh of the gears must be neither too tight nor too loose. If you are using a commercial gearbox, this should not be a problem provided there has been no wear. To get the correct mesh, either CAREFULLY file the gearbox face at the cover (a couple file strokes each time and no more, since you always can go back and cut more) or, to increase spacing, add a shim plate (.005" brass filed down). Check the motor shaft to insure it (a) has not become bent; (b) is not crooked in terms of its alignment with the worm shaft. Most good steam-loco models are sprung, and this requires either a motor mounted by a solid arm attached directly to the gearbox or some kind of flexible or universal coupling between worm shaft and motor shaft. The former arrangement is better from a current-drawing perspective, but the latter is more common. And, while a flexible coupling will allow the motor to turn the worm shaft without binding, this part of the connection still can make a motor work harder than it should (primary cause for overheating). To change the angle of the connection of the shafts, file or shim the motor mount as appropriate, so that the two align in a straight line when the weighted locomotive is resting on the track. Now, look at the flywheel, if you have one. The flywheel must be square and perfectly balanced or it will vibrate as it rotates. To balance the flywheel, remove it and mount it on a pair of razor blades -- when rolled to a new position, if balanced, it should not roll back. If it does roll back, there is a heavy spot at the bottom (file CAREFULLY, a couple of strokes and no more), then retest. The last factor to consider is weight -- if the locomotive is too heavy, no matter how good the mechanism or motor, the motor will overheat. In this circumstance, the solution is either to remove weight or install a larger motor. N.B.: The larger motor does not necessarily pull more or work better; but, its larger size will enable it to dissipate more heat. There is one other trick to play: If the motor can be brought into contact with another metal part, that part can act as a heat sink and siphon away some of the heat building up in the motor. The last thing to think about is lubrication and breaking in. The motor, the bearings, the worm, the spur, the axles, the pistons, the side-rod posts, and the valve gear must be lubricated with the proper grade of oil, and the locomotive then should be run under no-load conditions (I mount mine in the air over a shoebox) for several hours in both directions (this tends to eliminate problems from any small burrs of other causes of friction which the modeler missed)). The foregoing regimen should eliminate most hot motors. One other cause of hot motors is weakening of the magnetic field because of improper disassembly of the motor (if you failed to install a "keeper" when you took the motor apart the last time, this could apply). Another cause is running the motor at high revs under heavy load on "pulse" power (make certain your throttle settings are correct). Finally, you might be just trying to pull too much! But, that would be a problem I can't solve, other than to call for a helper next time you see the hostler.